3rd rail E7 window paint question

Butch,

if I recall, the E7's clear window glass isn't painted on the its backside, but there's a plastic piece (part of the body casting?) that goes over the window opening behind it.

have you found that to be the case? (I haven't opened mine up yet)

otherwise, be careful about the type of paint remover you use as it will most likely melt the window plastic or at the very least, cloud the clear plastic. I'd start with an eraser first and see what happens.

Our Burlington unit was painted, I did strip it off and made a faux engine room wall with styrene and painted it gray. 

Chris, I haven't looked at it to know but from what I've heard it was paint.

Erik, what kind of stripper did you use?  The faux engine room wall sounds like a good idea. Worst case scenario I was going to repaint the windows black so they looked clear but you couldn't see in. Please post some photo if you have them.

Butch

I used Scalecoat plastic paint remover.   It's takes the Burlington silver off in a couple of minutes.   I put a little remover on the end of a Qtip then dab it on the back of the window, wait a couple of minutes rub the Qtip around a bit to loosen the entire surface and wipe off with a CLEAN DRY absorbent paper or cloth towel.  Don't put much remover on the window as it could leak over the sides and around to the outside of the shell.  Repeat till the window is clear.  It took me about 15 minutes per locomotive.  Way less than the time to disassemble and re assemble the unit.

Silver is the easiest color to remove.  Only took one or two repeats.  YMMV.

Richard

Before the strip.. I used a mild solvent, damp thinner on a Que. tip. 

Richard's method is BEST

Thanks guys!  I don't have any scalecoat paint remover or a Hobby Shop close to me. I was hoping I could pick up something at ACE or Lowe's to do the trick.  I might try 91% isopropyl alcohol and see what that does.  It should't hurt the windows. 

Butch

what about brake fluid in this application?

I'm pretty sure Scott Mann told me the windows are polycarbonate so they should be able to stand up to most anything.    That said, I would test on only one to see.

Richard

The windows are poly carbonate, so acetone for a short period of time won't damage them. The paint is an acrylic enamel, Korean automotive paint. But it does come off. Just don't get acetone on the body. I can get replacement windows but not whole bodies, so be careful about the body. If you mess up your windows, let me know and I will ask for extras on my next trip.

Next run will not have paint on the back of these. Sorry, I thought it would look nicer than looking at all the wires etc. I asked them to put a box around electronics, but you know how these requests go. They get busy fixing the basic things, and forget about the special requests. And they are always in a rush to ship to avoid the wrath of their management. All in all, they want to make fine model for you. And so do I.

Scott

Have myself a few questions here.  "I asked them.....but you know how these requests go"  Don't they go like:

Project manager or company owner gives specs and design to contractor, and they do it or they don't get paid?

"In a rush to ship to avid the wrath of their Management"

Are you not their management?  Who is responsible for getting it right?  These are odd excuses.  I'll stick to Key and or Brass myself.

Are you not their management?  Who is responsible for getting it right?  These are odd excuses.  I'll stick to Key and or Brass myself.

Bern,  that's a pretty odd comment in itself.  if you read the long post about the new KEY E units (on this forum) you'll see comments that KEY has the same type issues with their builder and anticipates they always will. There are no perfect models!

Both sides are dealing with different cultures, languages and a host of other issues. So, for an importer to draw a line in the sand and try to run a builders business may not be the best solution to a problem......unless he wants to find a new builder.   

Importers are customers, not a managers, and I would expect if they try to tell the builder how to run their business they'll have bigger issues than they do now.

I think the E-7's being Sunsets 1st plastic diesel offering came out pretty darn well....not perfect...but certainly more than acceptable. I'm happy!  A lot of new ground was broken designing and building these models so problems are to be expected.  I'm sure future offering will get better and better. 

Butch

Scott,

Thanks for chiming in.  I've tried 91% Isopropyl Alcohol, lacquer thinner and grafitti paint remover but nothing worked.  I was just getting ready to order some Polly ELO but if acetone will work I have some at home.  I was afraid to try anything stronger than what I used without knowing more.

Thanks!

Butch

We had a plastic casting company(domestic) that we had used for years suddenly making a high volume part incorrectly. 

When we tried to get him to do it right, he sent our tooling back... 

We burned through our inventory pretty quick while the company had to scramble to get the part made elsewhere. The changeover held up our production of the one product line for about a month.

Rusty

A little story I hope Scott doesn't mind me repeating.

On his last inspection of the '48 Century cars Scott noted to the builder that the screws holding the end caps on were too small and fell out with a little shaking.  The builder said he would replace them before shipping them to the US.  He didn't.  They arrived with the wrong screws.  So Scott's crew got the pleasure of replacing the screws on all 1000+ cars before sending them out to customers/resellers.  There was no alternative.  They are fully paid for before they leave the Orient.  If he tried to recoup that cost from them they will just go out of business. 

Reminds me a lot of building contractors in this country.

Richard

Team members,

We have a whole bunch of angles here, including the sympathy one.  I am saying, based on Scott’s post, he needs to take more responsibility for his product.  And, just because one is honest about something, does not mean that what you are being honest about is the right way to do things.  Many of the other manufactures in HO and O, manage to work with their contractors and get it right.  If they get it wrong, they fix it.  And yes, at their expense.  Making a decision to put a box around the electronics, then painting the windows.... not the greatest.  Blaming the manufacturer and saying sorry is not the angle I expect from a higher end brass, aluminum and plastic importer.

I have a buddy upstate (no computer, does not want one) and he has pointed out many errors on the 20^th Century Cars.  Not going to go into it, but with all the info available, this should not happen.  Now an apology and great return policy is a beautiful thing, but I think we want accurate well done trains first.

Seems to me tha Scott is one of the most responsive manufactures/importers of model trains here.

Let he who is without fault...

Rusty

Dear Bern,

When doing business in the corporate world, you are completely right. When doing business with small manufacturers overseas, where only a handful of small mom and pops can make the models for your company, you have to negotiate everything, including their mistakes. Those that try to treat them like a corporate entity by sending them memos and correction documents will find the phone gets disconnected at the other end pretty quickly. 

The factories are run by not so professional artisans. If they were corporate geniuses they would be working for Samsung or Hyundai.  The models that we and other produce are all a product of trial and error, negotiations and compromises. They are not highly engineered because the quantities are too small and they are only run once or twice at most. If there are quality problems, I fix them.

If you want perfection, it won't happen with these kinds of factories.

I try to work with them, to understand their personal situation. But if you push them too hard, they will fail, close and that's it, you just lost your ability to make model trains.

So, I (Me - Scott Mann) take full responsibility for the outcome of our models. Even the painted windows, which we have done in previous products. The painted windows are not a MISTAKE. I did it on purpose. I didn't want customers to look into the model with all the wires. I only offer customers who don't like it, a way to easily change it (Acetone). Does that mean I am responsible for everyone's varied perception of what is right and wrong? No, but if the model doesn't perform as it should or has a flaw, I will fix it at my expense.

Of course we can take this to a higher level, but the price would be like Key or Kohs. I don't want to be in that end of the market. I know Key's Cal Zephyrs cost more than $1400 per car. Are they perfect? Kohs puts every conceivable detail on their models but are they perfect? Does $5000 + Locomotives mean that they are without a flaw?

Thanks for your opinion, you are spot on, I and my products are not perfect. But they are good and a very good value. And I listen to you and others and their comments. Which is why I am still in business. 

Scott

I assume then, that you purchase ONLY from Key, PSC, and Kohs. 

Great response Scott!  I had to jump into a meeting so you beat me to a response, but you said it much more eloquently than I could.  Pretty much covers the reality of it.

Butch

Well,  if he wants the bestest most accurate '38 20th Century set ever made in O scale I have a 12 car matching S/N Lionel Smithsonian set available for $7000 that a person says he wants but hasn't completed the transaction in months.  All but one of the cars still sealed in the original outer shipping cartons (it was sealed when I got it but all the labels had fallen off so I opened the outer shipping carton to verify the contents).   I also have a non matching second diner (wrong car number) to make a 13 car set available. 

Price goes down, compromise goes up.  Plain simple reality.

Richard

OBTW, they're not perfect either.  And a few errors are very noticeable, like the missing A/C access hatch on the roof.

I have over a dozen of Sunsets engines including the recently delivered NYC E-7's. They are not perfect.. The color is off on the e-7s, but the pursuit of perfection leads to excellence. These are excellent models and a great value to boot. I have the FL-9's, an Erie Berk and a NYC Mikado (if it ever sees the light of day) on reserve. The few times I had an issue replacement parts were on their way quickly. For the prices Scott charges he has nothing to apologize for.

Sorry to resurrect this post after so many weeks but I had a delay in ordering and receiving my Testors ELO.  I tried it and it didn't work so I'm back looking for new suggestions to remove the paint from my locos windows. My locos are painted Armour Yellow and apparently this is a tougher paint/color to remove than silver or other colors that have been removed successfully because I've found nothing that will do it. I'm afraid to use actual paint stripper for fear of damaging the windows.

I've tried paint and lacquer thinners, citrus paint removers, a product called OOPS, Testors ELO and finally acetone and nothing even discolors the cotton swab I'm using to put the chemicals on the windows. I worked with the ELO for over an hour putting new batches on every 10-15 minutes and after an hour the paint is as hard and smooth as if I used water.  After that, I put several doses of acetone on and spent 5 minutes rubbing it with the cotton swab...same results....zilch....and the cotton swab is still pure white.  This is some tough paint. 

The windows are glued in very, very well and I'm afraid the body or window center post might be damaged trying to pry them off, so a product that removes this paint without damaging the windows seems to be the way to go.

Any ideas fellows?

Butch  

I'm guessing 3rd rail probably can't supply a new window piece.  If they could you could just break the old one out.  I don't know what to suggest past acetone other than abrasives, and it would be very hard to polish the plastic back to smooth with the piece still in there.

I didn't realize it was so difficult. I will ask the factory about making extra windows.

Sorry, it was all my decision to paint them.

Scott

Hi Scott,

Hold tight on that thought.  I want to try some actual paint strippers (carefully) before even thinking of removing the windows.  I'll be in touch off forum if it needs to go that far. You have way too much on your plate to worry about this issue.  But, I can tell you your builder does an excellent job of glueing in the windows and the paint is bullet-proof.

Butch