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I started discussing this in another post, but I want to get input specifically on the TAS TMCC components.  

My circa 2002 3rd Rail Niagara (seems to have never been run) has a TAS SAW board, with a "Rev 3" stamp on it.  It has a fan driven smoke unit, and a TAS Puff-N-Chuff board.  The smoke unit produces no smoke, and the fan does not function with the Railsounds chuffs.

The first steps I took were to reprogram it.  Following the directions:

ENG + ## (any number from 1-99) + SET (under the bottom cover of your Cab-1) The horn will blow and the front light will flicker. Now press; ENG + ## (the one you just set) + AUX1 + Whichever number applies in the chart below. The horn will sound again.

I used "4" for steam with smoke.  Of note, the horn (whistle) does not sound on the last step, unless "SET" is pressed.  All the TMCC sound/control functions seem to wok properly, other than the smoke.

Below is a picture of the SAW board, and the closest SAW diagram I can find.  They are slightly different.  Mine does not have the 3 pin connector for the smoke unit; the connector at that location is a 2 pin connector (in red circle) with the brown wire.  Also, the battery connection is soldered to the board, with no connector.  The chuff input also varies.

TAS SAW Board

 

SAW Diagram

I checked the voltage at what I believe to be the smoke unit hot lead (brown wire) with strange results.  It reads 0.0 volts, and regularly flickers to  6-7 volts for an instant every second or so.   What is going on here?

And for the second part of the problem, the fan does not run/pulse with the chuff.  As my SAW board differs from the diagram, and does not have the "Chuff Output" pin, can anyone please advise me  where the chuff output connection is.

I would like to see if these problems originate in the tender before I extract the smoke unit from the boiler.

Thanks,

Jim 

 

 

 

 

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  • TAS SAW Board
  • SAW Diagram
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Let me guess, you're stopped, right?  If you are not seeing a TMCC signal, which means you're initialized in conventional mode, the smoke unit will indeed pulse exactly as you describe.  This was to keep the smoke unit "warm", but not cook the element.  This is a function of the R2LC.  When you're moving or when you are in command mode, that behavior will not happen.

The fan does not come on at all...

 The Puff-N-Chuff board is what drives the puffing.  From the 3rd Rail Manual:

 

I isolated the connection from the trigger input on the Puff-N-Chuff board to the SAW board.  It is soldered to a jumper on the board (red arrow).

What signal is the TAS board supposed to send to the trigger input of the Puff-N-Chuff?  Is it a closed to ground like a Lionel cherry switch, or is it a momentary pulse?  How would i measure it?

 

Thanks.

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  • mceclip0
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I appreciate your enthusiasm for wanting to have the latest and greatest.  I have used and enjoy all of these products.  That said...

ERR cruise commander - $120

EER new rail sounds - $90

Super Chuffer - $60

Chuff Generator- $30

Lionel smoke unit. - $30

Total - $330.

Locomotive already has TMCC, Railsounds 4 and synchronized fan driven smoke.  (weather or not the tender wheel mounted reed switch provides satisfactory results is subject to review)

New R2LC - $40

Possibly 5v power supply -free from the parts drawer.

A few hours tinkering, which I enjoy.

However, if you would like to finance the upgrade to these fine products, I would appreciate it!

-Jim

Last edited by Jim Harrington
Jim Harrington posted:

I appreciate your enthusiasm for wanting to have the latest and greatest.  I have used and enjoy all of these products.  That said...

ERR cruise commander - $120

EER new rail sounds - $90

Super Chuffer - $60

Chuff Generator- $30

Lionel smoke unit. - $30 reuse the old smoke unit. Just rebuild it

Total - $330.

Locomotive already has TMCC, Railsounds 4 and synchronized fan driven smoke.  (weather or not the tender wheel mounted reed switch provides satisfactory results is subject to review)

New R2LC - $40 comes with the cruise so drop 40 bucks

Possibly 5v power supply -free from the parts drawer. not needed as it's already in the super chuffer

A few hours tinkering, which I enjoy.

However, if you would like to finance the upgrade to these fine products, I would appreciate it!

-Jim

You added components that are already included or not required. See above.

 

Well you have a awesome engine that could run better with cruise control and sound better with RS 5.0.   You could always go DCS PS3/2 upgrade kit for 200 bucks.  Your choice and good luck

Last edited by superwarp1
Jim Harrington posted:

Is a bad smoke triac the possible culprit on the R2LC broad?

Would a bad triac affect the resetting/programming?  (is there a way to test the triac?)

The bad triac would have one of two symptoms. 

One, no smoke at all, and of course, no heat to the smoke unit. 

Two, maximum smoke all the time with no program control.

I test the triac in a test stand, it has an incandescent bulb for the smoke output.  I can tell from the intensity of the light if the triac is working.

It's very unlikely that a smoke triac would affect the programming function.

gunrunnerjohn posted:
Jim Harrington posted:

Is a bad smoke triac the possible culprit on the R2LC broad?

Would a bad triac affect the resetting/programming?  (is there a way to test the triac?)

 

It's very unlikely that a smoke triac would affect the programming function.

What is replaceable on the board that might affect the programming function (other than the chip)?

Years of inactivity may have been a gremlin with the fan motor.  I checked the resistance - 11.4 ohms.

Connected 3 AA batteries to it - nothing.   "Goosed" it a few times with the battery pack and viola - the fan runs.  Now have a healthy volume of synchronized puffing smoke. 

The stack design however leaves a bit to be desired.  It has an opening of a bit over 1/8" so the smoke comes out in a tight stream, instead of filling the stack.

There is is a fitting in the stack that  looks like a special spanner or blade is needed to unscrew it (unless I'm overthinking it)  see attached.

IMG_0339

Thanks all.  

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Last edited by Jim Harrington
Jim Harrington posted:

What is replaceable on the board that might affect the programming function (other than the chip)?

Nothing that I'm aware of.  I've never tried to revive one that wouldn't program but otherwise functioned.  I've only seen a couple that wouldn't program in the hundred's I've seen, assuming they would function.  Usually, when they won't program, it's because they aren't receiving the signals.

Jim Harrington posted:

Years of inactivity may have been a gremlin with the fan motor.  I checked the resistance - 11.4 ohms.

Connected 3 AA batteries to it - nothing.   "Goosed" it a few times with the battery pack and viola - the fan runs.  Now have a healthy volume of synchronized puffing smoke. 

The stack design however leaves a bit to be desired.  It has an opening of a bit over 1/8" so the smoke comes out in a tight stream, instead of filling the stack.

There is is a fitting in the stack that  looks like a special spanner or blade is needed to unscrew it (unless I'm overthinking it)  see attached.

The "fitting" in the stack is the stack extension, you unscrew that to allow you to slide the smoke unit out the front, the wires should be long enough to do that.

My test for fan motors is never more than 5V.  If they won't run on 5V, I replace them on the spot.  A good fan motor should run on less than 2 volts.

As far as the smoke not "filling the stack", where possible I drill out the stack fittings as much as possible to allow more airflow.  It's not always possible, but it's one of the things I look at when improving the smoke.

Jim Harrington posted:

What is the appropriate part number for the triac ?  I have seen several different recommendations on the forum.  For $0.75 or so, it can't hurt to try...

 

gunrunnerjohn posted:
Jim Harrington posted:

Is a bad smoke triac the possible culprit on the R2LC broad?

Would a bad triac affect the resetting/programming?  (is there a way to test the triac?)

 

It's very unlikely that a smoke triac would affect the programming function.

Well for kicks, I replaced the triac with a 2N6075BG, and...

Nothing.  Just as you surmised.  Ordered a new R2LC and a spare, along with a pocket full of other stuff from Lionel.

Not 100% sure this would be the acceptable one to use anyway.  I have see recommendations for :

2N6075BG

2N6071AG

2N6071BG

Which one is most appropriate?

 

Thanks

Jim

 

Last edited by Jim Harrington

Now onto an improvement.  

Looking to modify the chuff trigger - Likely to use a Chuff Generator...

The chuff signal is provided by a Lionel 691-pcb1-073 Hall Effect Sensor.  It has 3 wires to it- two white, one red.  I experimented to see how it works as a switch, such as a cherry or reed switch, but can not get a closed condition; rather I get some strange readings in ohms, or no continuity using that seting on my meter.  I know the sensor works, because it it chuffs and puffs.

I'm interested in an explanation; however my overriding question is which wire is the chuff trigger/input to the SAW board?

Last edited by Jim Harrington

The hall effect sensor sends out a pulse, so a meter isn't really the way to look at it.

The TAS Steam SAW board used for steam has a wire soldered to a empty IC socket position to input the chuff.  However, the best place to inject the chuff signal IMO is pin 17 on the R2LC socket.  It's easily accessible under the SAW board and it's a logic trigger with a common of frame ground.  That's how virtually all of my TMCC installations deal with chuff, and most Lionel stuff connects the chuff switch to the R2LC p-17 as well.

Here's the illustration from the SAW manual, but looking at a SAW board I have, it doesn't make sense.  Another reason I use a connection point that I know works.

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gunrunnerjohn posted:
As far as the smoke not "filling the stack", where possible I drill out the stack fittings as much as possible to allow more airflow.  It's not always possible, but it's one of the things I look at when improving the smoke.

Why are this stack and some others designed with a narrow opening for the smoke, in the first place?

Cheers!

Keith

Keith L posted:
gunrunnerjohn posted:
As far as the smoke not "filling the stack", where possible I drill out the stack fittings as much as possible to allow more airflow.  It's not always possible, but it's one of the things I look at when improving the smoke.

Why are this stack and some others designed with a narrow opening for the smoke, in the first place?

Cheers!

Keith

The mystery of the ages Keith, I don't know the answer.   I suppose there's a time where the small open is beneficial in certain models  Almost universally I seem to get better smoke volume by providing more airflow.  Of course, that allows me to tweak the resistors for a bit more heat, more air, more heat, more smoke.

A few more questions..

If I put a Chuff-Generator in the engine, is the existing 5v supply for the Puff-N-Chuff adequate to tap into?

I thought chuff input on the RS board is pin 21?

I would like to re-purpose the existing tether wire that sends the chuff trigger to the Puff-N-Chuff, which has continuity with pin 21.  This should work right???

Thanks

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Jim, I specified the chuff input on the R2LC, that's pin 17.  Yes, the TAS 5V supply should be sufficient to run the Chuff-Generator too.  I tend to avoid connecting to the RS board as later versions have totally isolated chuff inputs and don't have a common AC and DC ground.  To avoid confusion and people cooking boards, I just use what is universally available as my chuff input.

 

Hi (waves, is anybody still on this thread?)  It is a great one, btw for back(mis)-fitting old RSounds stuff.

Per the chuff input, RS4:  I can't use the R2LC pin, but that's OK because I'm just using a reed switch.  Or it would be OK but the diagram above (Railsounds and Power Board, *not* the R2LC) only shows one chuff input, Pin 21?  There must be two because as we have been warned, you can't run it to AC ground.  So where does the other side of the reed switch go?  I swear I've exhausted all the Internets.

thanks

If you connect a switch directly to the RailSounds board, you connect the reed switch between pin 19 and pin 21 of the RS4 board.  Don't quote me on this, but I "think" the RS4 boards actually had a common AC and DC ground, it was the newer single board RS design that most surely requires isolated switches for direct connection.

Why exactly can't you use the R2LC pin 17 for the chuff input referenced to frame ground?  If you're running command mode with serial data going to the RS board, I can't imagine why that won't work.

Thanks!

>Why exactly can't you use the R2LC pin 17 

That's what I'd like to know.  I have the ACDC Commander and it doesn't bring that pin out, and I'm not soldering directly to anything just because.   I intend to post pictures at some point, but this is a contraption that only a mother could love:

  • 1996 Railking Challenger, basic (only horn and whistle)
  • Sweet motors and mechanics.  Crap electronics.  Eventually things started failing, first sound, then smoke, then motor control
  • So bought full TAS setup.  Just before they TAS went toes up.  Sigh.  Sat for a few years, tried it.  It never worked (went up in smoke).  Maybe I screwed it up, but I have a MSEE so I think I probably didn't.  Doesn't matter.
  • So eventually got tired of it sitting on my workbench and put in the ACDC Commander.
  • Later built my own smoke driver unit on a breadboard (the most contraptional looking part.  It selects the smoke level based on whether the motors are engaged or not). 
  • More years go by.
  • Now putting in the leftover RS4+Powerboard set from the TAS kit in.  Bought a Lionel board for $20 which takes the RS4 and the PS board, and supplies all the pins you'd want and more, speaker plugs right in, plus mounting holes.

So using the Lionel board, in the tender at least it's semi professional-looking.

'

The AC and DC Commander, for reasons that I can't fathom, didn't bring the chuff pin out and instead wasted that position on an extra duplicate antenna connection.  I have no idea why they did that, but it was pretty silly and totally useless.

As far as not soldering directly, that's a personal decision.  It's pretty easy to solder to that pin on the backside of the AC/DC Commander, but if you insist that you won't directly solder, I guess you're stuck.

Hi,I need some help

Do you have a pinout for a 103 E-Unit 691-PCB1-064?  I  have recently acquired a 1998 4-6-2 Pacific  "New Haven" 6-18085 that was TMCC upgradeable  It will move with conventional commands but not with TMCC commands. I have wirelisted the backplane 691-PCB1-024 . 

any help would be appreciated

Your diagram for the R2LC board page 27/30 was most helpful .

Thank you

Railroad Jim 

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