3rd Rail Presents the SF 2900 Class 4-8-4

Hi Scott,

Will this model be on display at the upcoming TCA York, Pa show? First ever Santa Fe 4-8-4 model with roller bearing side rods!

Steve

I'm not a Santa Fe modeler, but that model is just un-real!!!!! Would there be any chance of installing larger engine truck wheels?

you mean pilot truck wheels. when gary was with 3 rail you could call and request he change the pilot wheels before shipping and it was done, now with a dead phone operator you have to leave a message and you do not know what you will get. robot progress I guess.

In 3 Rail we have to reduce the size of the pilot truck wheels to clear the cylinders on curves. The flanges are just to big in 3 Rail. But if you want, we can order you larger pilot truck wheels for display purposes. The 2 Rail models have scale size pilot truck wheels. You can't have scale everything and run on tight curves. Somethings gotta give.

I believe I answered the question about calling and leaving messages on a previous post. We just don't have the money to hire some one to answer the phone all day. We ask our customers to leave a message or email us so we can get back to them when we are at our desks. We did hire 2 new people last week to handle the customer service calls that increase during this period of time. Christopher Jackson is coordinating all service functions and now we have 3 men working on models with various schedules. We focus on warranty repairs first, non-warranty second, and parts for old models 3rd. But we do try to handle everyone's requests the best we can. We still get calls asking for parts for models that are 15 - 25 years old. But usually there is not much left but some screws and springs after that length of time.

Gary is sorely missed, but he decided not to follow us up to San Ramon. It is over 40 miles from his house.

Scott

"We ask our customers to leave a message or email"

I recently emailed Scott with a question about one of my 3rd Rail engines. A few hours later, Scott emailed me from China saying he would refer my question to his tech in CA. The tech got back to me within 24 hrs. I think that's pretty good customer service.

Gary

Are you offering road number 2926? The one being restored in ABQ, NM.

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you mean pilot truck wheels

NO, ironlake2, I DO NOT mean pilot truck wheels!!!! The correct technical term is ENGINE TRUCK!

But I do understand why they have to be smaller on 3-Rail models, due to the darned big flanges. Too bad a happy medium can't be reached on those flange sizes, though.

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But I do understand why they have to be smaller on 3-Rail models, due to the darned big flanges. Too bad a happy medium can't be reached on those flange sizes, though.

Hot Water,
I was discussing this with a mutual friend this AM (he went to the Illinois Railway Museum with us last March).

Our mutual opinion is that Sunset's 3 rail steam locomotives are generally not run on tubular track and that these locomotives could possibly be made with a smaller flange than that currently being used - essentially a compromise between 2 rail and current 3 rail flange depth. To my knowledge there are no NMRA standards governing 3 rail. Correct me if I am wrong.

Since Joe and I are both 2 railers I need guidance from you 3RS guys as to whether to even consider addressing this with Scott. Let me know,please.

Bob,

You and Joe are absolutely correct! Although NMRA has no "standard", or even guidance for that mater, for 3-Rail wheel tread/flange specifications, many of us 3RS modelers have felt for a long time that SOMETHING needs to be done about the huge "pizza cutter" flanges. I know that Dave Hikel has been "looking into" a wheel/flange profile that will work for 3-Rail, Hi-Rail, and 3RS modelers.

You are also correct in that NONE of Sunset/3rd Rail/Golden Gate Depot products are designed to operate on 027/031 track systems, so why bother with the early 1900s "pizza cutter" wheel/flange profile? Our Independent Hi-Railers, Mid-West Division modular layout is all gargraves/Ross track and I personally have had no problems using many of my cabooses equipped with 2-Rail wheels/trucks.

Just my opinion, but I think the timing is right for a long hard look at flange size for the 3RS market, especially since MTH has been offering more and more products for the 2-Rail & 3RS modelers.

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Why not start a new thread to invite comments/opinions??? (I'm not an expert here, so I defer to others for this one!)

Probably a good idea, KD. However, the last time we had a separate thread on this subject, which I started, we got a bunch of the 2-Rail guys complaining that, "Why didn't we just model in O Scale 2-Rail?". THAT seems to come up a lot.

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Too bad a happy medium can't be reached on those flange sizes, though.



these locomotives could possibly be made with a smaller flange than that currently being used - essentially a compromise between 2 rail and current 3 rail flange depth

Be careful what you wish for guys. The 'typical' 3-rail flange measures 0.095" on Weaver, MTH and 3rd Rail models. The flangeway depth at the frog of Ross switches also happens to be 0.095" which allows smooth operation even though the flangeways are much wider than scale.

The Sunset High Iron K4s was delivered with flanges that measured 0.065" on all locomotive and tender wheels. I measured them when I noticed the locomotive bumping through the switches in my engine terminal with each truck on loco and tender dipping past each frog. At speed the wheels didn't have time to dip but crawling through the engine terminal looked terrible. I returned the locomotive.

Scott - I anxiously await delivery. Aside from the engine truck wheel question, I thought red class lamps were a thing of the past. Wouldn't white or green have been more appropriate? If Gary Schrader helped you on this project, did he comment on that?

Nit picking aside, the engine is superb. Thanks for taking care to produce such a wonderful model.

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Just my opinion, but I think the timing is right for a long hard look at flange size for the 3RS market, especially since MTH has been offering more and more products for the 2-Rail & 3RS modelers.

To see if this is feasible, perhaps 3rd Rail could include a post card for those that actually purchase 3rd Rail products with a survey. Posing the question at York or similar 3 rail oriented event tends to skew the outcome of such a survey. It would be very interesting to see how many run on tubular track. After all Lionel even offered models that only ran on T-Rail track and at the end of the original Lionel they moved into Super O. People that buy these engines are at least Hi-Railers.

I would need the 2900 class in hand to make the comparison, but it looks like 3rd Rail used smaller engine trucks on the 2900 class than it did on their Santa Fe 3751 class Northern of a few years back. Are the engine truck wheels that small so that the engine will negotiate 054 instead of 072?

Looking at some of the coming offerings from 3rd Rail, like the E7, I have thought perhaps 3rd Rail could take the lead, with MTH, Atlas, and Weaver close behind to offer the 3rd Rail engines ready to run as a 3RS engine out of the box, couplers and all. The buyers that should be making the modifications are the Lobster claw, swing pilot guys. I'm sure they could be accommodated in the same way we have to buy Kadee's etc. I don't think you would be isolating yourself in the market, but creating a market.

I feel those buying very near scale equipment that runs on 3 rail track are doing so because of the radius limitations of 2 rail.

Scott - I will be emailing you to include the scale 2 rail wheels for mine. I'll be glad to compensate you.
There is a lot of air between the cylinders and the engine truck.



To all looking at this post and buying this engine. How many of you are using tubular track? How many of you need the engine to operate on 0-54 track?

I know this is a done deal, but there is the future.

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In 3 Rail we have to reduce the size of the pilot truck wheels to clear the cylinders on curves.

What would be the min radius with the larger scale wheels?

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Be careful what you wish for guys. The 'typical' 3-rail flange measures 0.095" on Weaver, MTH and 3rd Rail models. The flangeway depth at the frog of Ross switches also happens to be 0.095" which allows smooth operation even though the flangeways are much wider than scale.

The Sunset High Iron K4s was delivered with flanges that measured 0.065" on all locomotive and tender wheels. I measured them when I noticed the locomotive bumping through the switches in my engine terminal with each truck on loco and tender dipping past each frog. At speed the wheels didn't have time to dip but crawling through the engine terminal looked terrible. I returned the locomotive.

Perhaps there is something in between 0.095 and 0.065 and I think that the 72 inch diameter has been a milestone for so long that one couldn't go past there and keep the vast majority of 3 rail buyers. I don't know how many buyers you gain when you go down to 0-54, but perhaps it can be enough to seriously affect profitability.

Trevize - Do you have a picture handy of one of your Santa Fe 3751 class Northerns?

You should be able to see the difference in the wheel size that was used on the engine truck. Mine looks larger than the 2900 class.


Again, Scott has made a fantastic engine. Looking at the drivers, trailing trucks, and tender trucks, they look very special!

there are several other great photos of the engine on the website. Beautiful engine! Note that 3rd Rail says that only 25 of each road number will be produced, but they don't say how many road numbers will be produced. Seems like 3rd Rail usually makes up to 6 numbers, but Scott has said they got a company that is willing to make less total models than before.

Scott;

I may have missed it somewhere, but will the 2 rail version have DCC/QSI?
Thanks, Allan

The UP does run on the ATSF/SNSF over Cajon Pass. So it is possible to have a layout with UP and AF power!

The engine looks drop dead great!

Anyway, if engine truck = pilot, then what does call the trailling truck? And are these univeral terms, or used just on UP?

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Anyway, if engine truck = pilot, then what does call the trailling truck? And are these univeral terms, or used just on UP?

The name "Engine Truck" is a universal term, or sometimes call a "Lead Truck". The term "pilot truck" is only a hobbyist term. How did the the UP get into this anyway.

The Trailing Truck is called,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Trailing Truck!

Here you go Marker.

3rd Rail 3752 :-)

[IMG]

From Train Pictures

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Originally posted by Hot Water:

quote:

Anyway, if engine truck = pilot, then what does call the trailling truck? And are these univeral terms, or used just on UP?

The name "Engine Truck" is a universal term, or sometimes call a "Lead Truck". The term "pilot truck" is only a hobbyist term. How did the the UP get into this anyway.

The Trailing Truck is called,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Trailing Truck!

Oh whew, somehow I had thought the engine truck had somehow become the trailing truck which made no sense. It does makes sense that the engine truck sits under the steam engine. The "steam engine" being the pistons and their associated control mechanisms to put the steam in the correct cylinder at the best time to product the most work. The whole thing that we now call a steam engine in reality is a steam locomotive, the loco meaning exactly what you think it means because of all those mechanisms looked rather crazy to people in the early 19th century.

Richard

quote:

Originally posted by marker:


Perhaps there is something in between 0.095 and 0.065 and I think that the 72 inch diameter has been a milestone for so long that one couldn't go past there and keep the vast majority of 3 rail buyers. I don't know how many buyers you gain when you go down to 0-54, but perhaps it can be enough to seriously affect profitability.

Geez, you and Trevize must be two of the other 19 guys that are modeling in 3RS.



This is the second Model from 3rd Rail whose progress has been announced on this board. I'm pleased to see that this is the venue for the announcing of these models. However, our stated goals for modeling in this scale are quite clear, as stated in the sticky on top of this forum (written by an individual that has given up on this venue):

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To achieve this goal, importers and manufacturers should be lobbied to offer models that are accurately scaled, well and properly detailed for specific prototypes, and still able to operate on 3 rail 072 curves. (Tighter diameters, even 054, would exclude the use of many scale locomotives and passenger cars).

Please don't misunderstand my comments here. This model is quite beautiful, nicely detailed, and represents in my opinion great value for the money. I postulate that between two rail O scalers, and three rail scale people (including those who stay with large couplers but run larger than O-72 curves; I've NEVER stated that Kadees HAD to be required to post here, but is is MY preferred configuration) represent the largest amount of 3rd Rail's targeted production. In turn, both markets still pay "premiums" in terms of optional engine trucks as in this thread, or in the purchase of correct pilots in the case of the E7 diesel electric. In the case of the E7, we all get to use our drill and tap set too, possibly even on the next round of announced models.

In the meantime, those who still want the ability to run on sharper curves, with smoke (something I and many others have decided to forgo), get the locomotive to meet their needs right out of the box. Perhaps they ought to be the market that is purchasing the additional "small wheel" pilot, or paying for an optional two rail pilot on an E7 that they may not use instead of this market fitting the bill and jumping through hoops. If they don't need Kadee mounting pads on their diesels, they can ignore them, but can pay the initial cost for drilling and tapping four holes, the four coupler screws, , and shim, if required, to easily mount Kadees.

I'm not about to go cancelling steam locomotive models on order if they show up with an undersize engine truck (Scott is now putting Kadee mounts on the tender of his steam locomotives, something that took convincing to do). If it cheezes me off, I'll purchase a two rail pilot wheel set. But that sure isn't going to stop me from jumping on every opportunity to publicly lobby for change. I am however going to forgo any model that doesn't make an attempt to meet my needs when it comes to the upcoming diesel electrics. I've already written off purchasing any Atlas GP or RS locomotive, as I refuse to pay an additional $125.00 per model to have the importer send me my model with a fixed pilot, or play the parts bin purchasing game where I may or may not be able to purchase what I need. I am purchasing Atlas F unit models as they engineered in the scale coupler into their package. Same will go for 3rd Rail. So, they have a choice on my future business. It doesn't cost much, and little effort, to incorporate any of the changes recommended into their future announced diesel electric models.

When I started playing with hi-rail eight years ago, I had no intention of going down the Kadee path, and I wasn't sweating the size of the engine truck wheels. Information presented on this board had convinced me an others of the relative ease of making minor improvements, and improving the look of the model with minor tweaks. One of the reasons that people lobbied OGR for this forum was for us to have a venue to spread the word of what is possible in three rail scale, and lobby manufacturers to consider making changes. So, in light of this, it is time to start lobbying the manufacturers again to make changes.

As Bob Turner is fond of saying on this board, all "opinion".

Regards,
GNNPNUT

Obviously you have misinterpeted EVERYTHING he said!

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Originally posted by PRR Man:
Geez oh man 'Nut, you really got a hard-on for 3rd Rail.

If I had a hard on for 3rd Rail, I wouldn't have six of his locomotives on order in O, and two in HO. How many do you have on order? One of those models is due this month. I'm supporting the company with my pocketbook. How about you?

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I'd surely like to know where you have the idea that 3 rail scale buyers represents the lion's share of 3rd Rail-Sunset sales. If I missed the facts somewhere, please show me because I don't believe it.

Please go back and read what I wrote. Here is is again, for your convenience, below in italics:

I postulate that between two rail O scalers, and three rail scale people (including those who stay with large couplers but run larger than O-72 curves; I've NEVER stated that Kadees HAD to be required to post here, but is is MY preferred configuration) represent the largest amount of 3rd Rail's targeted production.

One of the reasons that there are numerous posters that used to post here, and no longer do, is they do not subscribe to the "expanded" vision of 3RS which I do subscribe to, which means that if you want to run large couplers, come on down, but don't compromise on minimum radius or scale size where possible. O-72 should be the minimum these locomotives in three rail configuration should be designed for. It the locomotive is something smaller like a 2-6-0, 4-6-0, or 2-8-0, and it can run on smaller radii without running small pilot wheels, that it is a bonus.

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Scott is the only major manufacturer-importer that will come on here, ask for your opinion and input en route to a better model and then get his head chopped at the neck for doing so.

I did not chop off his neck. What I did state is that if he doesn't want to address the market that this board supports, in the case of diesel electric locomotives currently planned, then I'm not supporting that product. That is a reality, and if enough other people speak up, then maybe something will change.

If a manufacturer wants to post photos advertising his offerings, I'm all for that, but then they also better be ready for criticism when what shows up doesn't meet expectations. Due to the feedback on this board, those modeling three rail scale were able to get modified drawbar configurations for their B&O Q-4bs, amongst other changes. As I stated in my post, 3rd Rail is offering solid value. They can still improve.

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If you are so twisted about what he's doing, contact him directly and give him a piece of your mind, rather than attempt to rally others here to support your gripe.

Been there, done that, limited success, and a lot more patiently than here.

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And please don't be so high horse about 3 rail scale 'standards'. I modeled what you call 3RS ten years ago! Maybe I was the first, it doesn't matter because I'm not crowing about it.

And now you model in two rail, and still feel the need to come on here and tell us how we should model in 3 rail.

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He started this thread to showcase the latest of his products, if you don't like the product, don't buy it!

God, I'll remember to never invite you to the party.

He started this thread to showcase his product, and he is getting valuable feedback that he can use to grow his business if he so chooses, or ignore it. This is not an advertising forum. If I want ads, I can go to his website, or read the e-mail ads I receive.

As far as getting invited to one of your parties, not really interested.

OK GNNPNUT (sorry, I don't know your name),

I own 2 Sunset engines, am expecting 2 of the E7's in December, and plan to purchase 2 more if the ones they schedule are produced (the FP7 and E2B).

You say you postulate who is buying 3rd Rail products. Based upon what information other than a gut feeling? That's fine, I do it too. But it is still not a matter of fact.

Insofar as who practices 3RS to what degree should not be a matter of discussion. If someone has differing standards than you, so what? It's their standard, just as your standard is yours. If you are insisting that everyone must adhere to the same standard as you do, that is grossly unfair and quite intolerant.

And finally, explain how I came 'over here' to tell you how to enjoy your hobby? What exactly did I say to that effect? My point was there is a better way to get what you want than to publicly skewer someone you disagree with.

I'll withdraw my comments. You are free to say what you will and leave whatever impression people get about you.

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Originally posted by PRR Man:
OK GNNPNUT (sorry, I don't know your name),

I own 2 Sunset engines, am expecting 2 of the E7's in December, and plan to purchase 2 more if the ones they schedule are produced (the FP7 and E2B).

You say you postulate who is buying 3rd Rail products. Based upon what information other than a gut feeling? That's fine, I do it too. But it is still not a matter of fact.

No, but it is what I had been told by Scott and Bob Heil in the past. But twist it however you want. IIRC, a lot of 3rd Rail product, two and three rail, graces display cases or stays in the box, so those folks sure wouldn't mind larger engine truck wheels.

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Insofar as who practices 3RS to what degree should not be a matter of discussion. If someone has differing standards than you, so what? It's their standard, just as your standard is yours. If you are insisting that everyone must adhere to the same standard as you do, that is grossly unfair and quite intolerant.

It is entirely a matter of discussion, and the entire reason people lobbied for this board.

Here is an idea. Instead of Scott catering to the likes of two railers, how about if he further streamlines the production lines, takes a cheaper route, and goes back to twin motor "china" drives?

But nobody ever complained about that in two rail land, did they?

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And finally, explain how I came 'over here' to tell you how to enjoy your hobby? What exactly did I say to that effect? My point was there is a better way to get what you want than to publicly skewer someone you disagree with.

You came over here and told anybody that wants to do three rail scale that we should basically shut up and take whatever the manufacturers want to shove down our throats in the interest of peace and harmony in the three rail world, and in the interest of less product differentiation on the part of the manufacturer.

Three railers are going to pay more for these models due to the horizontal drive. I'm OK with that, as I love a well engineered drive just as well as anybody, but 3rd Rail determined that a single motor drive was the way to go, and took a more expensive route to ensure that 2 railers got what they wanted. So why is it wrong for a 3RS person, on a 3RS forum, to expect the same level of attention in terms of more correctly sized engine trucks, and easy Kadee installation on 3 rail scale locomotives?

Oh, wait, I know, we should all abandon three rail and go to two rail, just like you did, right?

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I'll withdraw my comments. You are free to say what you will and leave whatever impression people get about you.

And people can draw their impressions of you to.

I'll say it again, for the final time.

I 'came over here' and spoke only to you, not the entire 3RS community, about using a bit more tact when advocating what you want from an importer.

I spoke about decorum, not values, not whose preferences are better, not 2 rail vs. 3 rail.

As a result of our little discourse, a friend whose opinion I value a great deal tells me you are a good guy. I'll accept that.

I'm done. I do hope you get to enjoy your engine.

I've learded to be thick skinned to survive over here!

Scott will the 2 rail versions have the correct cylinders and diameter wheels?

Very nice looking piece, another home run for you guys at Sunset! Good Job!

Erik

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Scott will the 2 rail versions have the correct cylinders and diameter wheels?

Erik - The website lists:
Also: 2R Pilot Wheel will be 42" Diameter

So assuming that's correct, what is wrong with the cylinders? Please educate me.





BTW: Mr. Mt. Marlborough Scenic Railway, GREAT LAYOUT! I went through your website. Excellent!

Scott wrote:

quote:

In 3 Rail we have to reduce the size of the pilot truck wheels to clear the cylinders on curves. The flanges are just to big in 3 Rail. But if you want, we can order you larger pilot truck wheels for display purposes. The 2 Rail models have scale size pilot truck wheels. You can't have scale everything and run on tight curves. Somethings gotta give.

I guess I should have read a little deeper...

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I guess I should have read a little deeper...

Thanks Erik, I thought I might have missed something.

They looked good to me, but then I'm salivating, so my judgement is a bit clouded.

Scott, do you know what 3 road numbers there will be?

I think I am going for a 2 rail... Gonna try! They are NEAT-O!

Very reasonable price.

A model like this could easily be $4500. To quote a friend back in 2001, "How does he do that for $1200!...."


Thanks Scott- Keep up the good work.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Water:

quote:

you mean pilot truck wheels

NO, ironlake2, I DO NOT mean pilot truck wheels!!!! The correct technical term is ENGINE TRUCK!

But I do understand why they have to be smaller on 3-Rail models, due to the darned big flanges. Too bad a happy medium can't be reached on those flange sizes, though.

How does engine truck distinguish between trailing truck and pilot truck wheels. Maybe you meant bigger wheels on the rear truck. ha ha.

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How does engine truck distinguish between trailing truck and pilot truck wheels. Maybe you meant bigger wheels on the rear truck. ha ha.

As usual, you have no clue! The front truck assembly of ANY steam locomotive is called an "ENGINE TRUCK" because it leads the steam "ENGINE" into curves, as well as helping to support weight. The terms "pilot truck" or "pilot wheels" are hobbyist terms.

Now if you can't tell which is the Engine Truck (lead truck for you) and the Trailing Truck, then I sure don't see what's funny!

I didn't know that! (Engine Truck / Pilot Truck).

You learn something new everyday.

Now, stop quibbling. Lets play trains.

Scott

The model seems to have a silver painted areas in front of the smokebox. Yet the pic of the real 2929 in front of the depot has a black front. WWII rules? Camera angle?

Aren't the steam chests also actually the "steam engines", that is the motor units that create the motion, on steam locomotives? If so, is that also a reason the front truck is an engine truck because they are right by them?