3rd Rail Questions

I have seven 3-rd Rail engines. All but one bought new.

Four are fine, so far. Three, including the used one, already once repaired when I bought it, required repair, a second repair for the used one.

One had a dead short caused by a detached pickup roller. All others were sound problems.

Quality can be all over the map. I have engines made from 1998-2014. The newer ones have been pretty good out of the box and issues limited to maybe a bent pipe or ladder. One engine made in the mid 2000s has its drivers out of quarter, another similar engine is fine. Now that they no longer made in China maybe quality control will be better.

You should list your wants so folks can comment on specific engines. I can't help on the AC9.

Pete

They are still made in China.  Scott tried the Philippines but moved the project back to China.  He has used many different factories which seem to last a few years before trying to gouge 3rdRail.  He works hard staying on top of each project.

Jan

Hey TEXAS SP,

I have to agree with what Norton posted above. I for one am glad Scott is around and stays around for the future, but no company, including 3rd rail can always offer trouble free products. With that in mind, Sunset has a pretty good service record and Scott is just a nice guy to deal with.

I also agree with you that the field is getting narrow in terms or price/features/quality/details etc. Its not as clear cut as it once was.

In my case, the newer offerings are MUCH better then the offerings from the past, even from the early 2000's. It might help if you have a specific engine in mind. If someone has that engine and has operated it, they might give you a better evaluation.

It might also help to let everyone know if you intend to actually operate the engine or if it's to display.

Charlie

Forgot to mention that this past weekend a fellow club member took a recently purchased 3rd Rail C&NW H1 out of the box and went directly to the layout.

That engine ran for several hours with no issues, not even sure if he lubed it first.

This engine was a display only engine from a guy who passed on. So it did get displayed out of the box, but never had seen any run time.

Charlie

Right now, I am looking only at the AC9.  I intend to run it as well.  I don't have big funds for continual purchase, the AC9 would take it out of me for a while.  The next item I would like to find is a Santa Fe E6 and SP Black Widow F3's or F7's.

I own six 3rd Rail/Sunset models and all of them are runners.  All are from 2000-2001, one is older.

Part of owning brass steam is 'tweaking' them when needed.  

I think you'll enjoy your decision.

I have 18 or 20 Sunset/3rd-Rail steam locomotive models. They range from VERY early ones (C&O T-1 2-10-4 and PRR T-1 4-4-4-4, both having been upgraded to TMCC), the the most recent SP GS-5 black version. I tend to prefer the larger models ( two CB&Q M-4 class 2-10-4s, one SP-1 Class 4-10-2 three cylinder), to the big articulateds (C&O H-8 2-6-6-6, Northern Pacific Z-8 4-6-6-4, and UP 40023 4-8-8-4).

Wen I used to belong to the Independent High Railers, Mid-West Division, I had no problems handling LONG freight trains (65 C&O 2-Bay hoppers, or 48 ice reefers) on the big modular layout (L shaped, 92 feet X 75 feet). On our home layout, one of my Sunset/3rd Rail CB&Q S-4 Hudsons has currently been handling an 11 car Golden Gate Depot CB&Q passenger train, while a CB&Q M-4 2-10-4 handles anywhere from 25 to 45 mixed freight cars, on the inside mainline.

Do to their EXCELLENT performance, I tend to prefer the Sunset/3rdRail steam models, anti then MTH steam models (I only have 5 or 6 Lionel steam models).

3rd rail steam is first rate. The detail is far beyond Lionel with their tinplate valve gear and diecast boilers. Not knocking Lionel at all as they are good runners and presentable, but not really in the same league.

Laidoffsick, Doug, has the loco you want and can testify as to its performance. He also has a nice you tube expose' on it . Just type in 3rd rail ac9.

Good luck

We've quite a few 3rd Rail (Sunset) locomotives.  Super nice detailing, especially on the recent ones.  Mixed bag with older ones as far as the electronics holding up.  A couple had bad antenna reception problems which we were able to fix with Kapton tape and nylon screws.  The big Z-8 will pull most anything. Some of the smaller locomotives, like the NP A-3, are lighter and don't pull as many cars ... especially on grades.

Only one left on the deadline at this time, needs tires replaced ... another PIA.

The passenger cars Scott has vended are very nice, although the heavyweight cars couplers totally suck; the really stay closed as they are a PIA to open ... forget using an uncoupling track.

The TIMKEN Four Aces is one of the most beautiful ones, pushing the SP Daylight out of "the most beautiful locomotive" status.

The ever-increasing prices, and having to maintain/repair/upgrade the existing stable, have limited future purchases for sure.

I've own five over the years, some I still have some I don't.   I've never had any issues with electronics as I normally upgrade the minute I get a engine.  The only real issues I've had with the older ones is their pick up rollers are the weak link.(don't know how the new ones are).  Weak springs, poor power pick up, bent or what have you.  Wish the tenders had at least one pickup rollers for those odd ball dead spots over switches, crossing, etc etc.

over all I would only buy 3rdrail if they made the engines I wanted, as the detail is awesome, the drive system is the smoothest and they are great runners.

Here's my AC9, and for the record..... I love it. I had a couple issues with it when it was new but Scott Mann is a very easy guy to work with and we got it taken care of. I have several of the steam engines and diesels now, with several more on order. Like anyone/anything else, they CAN have their issues, but nothing that can't be fixed one way or another. They are fragile in the fact that they have so much more detail.... like this AC9. Heavy, very heavy, so get a good grip in the right spot. I've had most of mine apart to some degree for a modification or two. They run great with ERR/Cruise, super slow, nice cruising speed. I recently took the Santa Fe 4-8-4 2925 to the club and ran it about 4 hours straight. Was my best runner of the day, even better than my Lionel 3751.  

The diesels with the single horizontal drive are far superior to the dual vertical motor China drives. My four F7s and two FP7s run flawlessly together. I am anxiously awaiting the SD7s.

I think this is the same video on the Sunset website....

This is the first one I had, we believed it had a signal issue but did not.

Here's the 2-10-4 that I completely upgraded and re-numbered/lettered. This thing is a beast, and very LOUD with dual enclosed Fat Boys.

Here's a two year old video with the Sunset AC9, GS4, and FP7's all running on the layout. Slow speed, close ups, running at speed etc.... just skip past all the boring layout chit chat

I have several 3rd Rail models as well, including the AC-9.  Like anything you will always see improvements through progression.  I cherish all of the models I have from 3rd Rail, but my AC-9 is my absolute favorite to date.  Get it if you can, even it it requires putting it on lay-a-way.  I will forewarn you, you will only want more once you experience the detail and operation.  

Do't listen to anyone saying they are too delicate and bend or break easily. Unless you have a set of ham hands on you it will be fine.  They are loaded with fine detailing so just use common sense and don't grab them by the added detail or fine wire parts.  

Let us know what you decide to do.  I'd love to hear your thoughts if/when you get it.  Are you looking at the coal or oil version?

I recommend buying a new one if at all possible.  You never know what could be wrong with something on the secondary market and a lot of people have no idea how to pack them for shipping.  Plus, you get the warranty.  I actually received models in the past that were just tossed in the boxes without properly packing them.  Needless to see I had a project on my hands.  Lesson learned, but that was the only way to aquire some of the early offerings as I built my collection.

Nick

audidriven posted:

I have several 3rd Rail models as well, including the AC-9.  Like anything you will always see improvements through progression.  I cherish all of the models I have from 3rd Rail, but my AC-9 is my absolute favorite to date.  Get it if you can, even it it requires putting it on lay-a-way.  I will forewarn you, you will only want more once you experience the detail and operation.  

Do't listen to anyone saying they are too delicate and bend or break easily. Unless you have a set of ham hands on you it will be fine.  They are loaded with fine detailing so just use common sense and don't grab them by the added detail or fine wire parts.  

Let us know what you decide to do.  I'd love to hear your thoughts if/when you get it.  Are you looking at the coal or oil version?

I recommend buying a new one if at all possible.  You never know what could be wrong with something on the secondary market and a lot of people have no idea how to pack them for shipping.  Plus, you get the warranty.  I actually received models in the past that were just tossed in the boxes without properly packing them.  Needless to see I had a project on my hands.  Lesson learned, but that was the only way to aquire some of the early offerings as I built my collection.

Nick

hello AUDIDRIVEN........

Well said ................. I would be nervous if had it shipped by Postal, Fed Ex or UPS knowing it will never be packed well so my husband and I drove to bay area to pick up the S.F. 5011 at Scott Mann's office in 2012.  The speaker you send to me 3 years ago is still working and still loud !!! " thank you" and the engine is still running good since. It is a keeper !!!

Tiffany

TexasSP posted:

Right now, I am looking only at the AC9.  I intend to run it as well.  I don't have big funds for continual purchase, the AC9 would take it out of me for a while.  The next item I would like to find is a Santa Fe E6 and SP Black Widow F3's or F7's.

I think the previous videos have shown you what a fine engine the 3rd Rail AC-9 is.  I hope you enjoy owning and operating it.

The 3rd Rail FP7 and F7 are also excellent diesels, very smooth running, and well-detailed.  Both were imported in SP black widow.

As to the Santa Fe E6, it really depends on how critical you are.  MTH and Lionel have each produced Santa Fe E6's in the past and will probably do so again within the next few years.  The units from both manufacturers have nose emblems that are not quite prototypical, and they both have excessively long warbonnet stripes coming down off the roof, as the side panels are the standard side panels.  Santa Fe and C&NW ordered their E6's with the optional front engine room window positioning.  The paired front side windows were located farther forward on the side of the locomotive.  You might not notice it on the C&NW engines, but, on the Santa Fe units, it allows a shorter warbonnet stripe to wrap around the rear of the front side window.  Maybe 3rd Rail will do the EMC E6 someday with optional side panels (including the porthole-windowed Missouri Pacific units).

I have two, both available on the secondary market.  Both have been upgraded, decapod,  EOB/TMCC, and the E6,  ERR/TMCC.   I find the Pennsy I1 decapod, a well geared puller, and the Pennsy E6 Atlantic, a very good show piece.

Thirdrail Pennsy Decapod, right in picture.

Thirdrail Pennsy E6

 Thirdrail  SD7 should be here soon.   My first venture, (adventure),  into their horizontal drive in a diesel, also TMCC.

Also note that I purchased a coaling tower several years ago.

Thank you for all of the feedback.  Right now, the AC9 is what I am saving for.  The others listed are on the distant radar.  Meanwhile, Scott Mann sent me a very nice email yesterday, and appreciate that he obviously follows along on the boards very closely.

Here is a part of my response, which better explains where I am at and why the AC9.

"I am certainly interested in this model.  For a while I was having Model Train ADD so I currently have models in every scale except Z.  I finally calmed that down and am back focusing on O.  But I need to liquidate some of my other models first.  I would like to know more on how the hold works?  How much up front, how long to purchase, etc.  I don't intend to own a lot of large articulated locos.  Unless I get a smoking deal on one.  I picked this one because my grandfather started with SP in the 30's in Houston.  He retired around 76.  My first appreciation from trains comes from this relationship and his stories. Especially a story he told of him, my grandmother, and two of their friends (also and SP employee) going on a special trip pulled by a daylight painted GS4 from Houston to California.  So naturally I love the GS4.  He also told stories of the Big Boy on the rival UP, all admired that loco in the business.  He knew very well SP had large articulated locos, but these were not typically seen anywhere near Houston. But, he did know of the Cab Forwards used by SP all over the mountainous western US.  So then my heart pulls me back to SP.  But when I find out about the AC9, wow, I was in love.  It's like an SP GS and Cab Forward combined, and it's a huge articulated almost as powerful as the UP BB."

For what it's worth, Sunset/3rd Rail has listed BOTH versions of the SP AC-9 locomotive models in stock, i.e. the earlier coal burning version, and the later oil burning version. My choice would be the oil burning version for two specific reasons:

1) After being converted from coal burning to oil burning they were re-assigned from New Mexico to northern California working on the Modoc Line. The AC-9s ended their working careers there, in the later 1950s.

2) The tender on the oil burning model was originally from the C&O H-7 2-8-8-2 locomotives, but during WWII, the Union Pacific was so short of freight steam locomotives, the WPB "forced" the C&O H-7 class onto the UP. At the end of WWII, the UP promptly removed those former C&O articulateds from service and scrapped them, except for all the tenders. The Southern Pacific purchased many of those tenders, converted them all to oil fuel, and whenever a locomotive (such as the AC-9s) came into a big shop for conversion to oil burning or needing a larger tender (such as some of the 2-10-2s), there was already a former UP/C&O converted tender "ready to use". 

In the video posted above by LAIDOFFSICK, you can see his oil burning model has the oil fuel tender, with Commonwealth tender trucks (former C&O). Pretty much all SP larger steam locomotive tenders had Buckeye tender trucks, as did the AC-9 class when delivered as coal burners for the Lordsburg, New Mexico territory.

Man I want one of those SF 2-10-4s to pull some PRR coal around. LOS did a great job setting his up. 

Norm Charbonneau posted:

Man I want one of those SF 2-10-4s to pull some PRR coal around. LOS did a great job setting his up. 

Norm,

Those models seem to appear quite often on eBay.

I have purchased several models from 3rd Rail and Golden Gate Depot. Scott and company are wonderful to deal with. The customer service is second to none and they always pay close personal attention when dealing with you. Where else does the owner of the company personally respond to your emails, is open to your prodcut suggestions and actually request customer feedback directly. In my own personal opinion, you will be happy with every aspect of purchasing a new 3rd Rail model from Scott and you cant go wrong. The deposit and payments are a wonderful bonus to use when buying the more expensive models. Keep track of your monies but Shani and Scott are more than willing to let you know how much you have on deposit, all you need to do is ask. Just remember, they're busy too so don't inundate them with email after email and question after question. The costomer experience at 3rd Rail/Golden Gate Depot/ Sunset Models is second to none in the positives

Our experience has been Sunset (Scott) provide a good support for their products.  Scott has always responded to our questions and offered advice.

Like all manufacturers, there have been occasional problems with electronics, etc., which have been resolved.

Bottom line: we have many Sunset locomotives, and passenger cars, on the CL&W and would not part with a single one of them, especially my favorite .. the NP Z-8 monster.

Loved the video Doug.  You do fantastic work!

Mention has been made of a "deposit?"

I have three engines currently on order with 3rd Rail. They have not asked for any "deposit."

The did send an email asking that I reply to them only if I DO NOT plan on carrying through with my order for 3 E8 units. I DO plan on doing so, so I did NOT reply.

No deposit has been asked for.

They do not ask for or require deposits. They do give you the option of making a deposit at your choice and making payments on items. They even provide a layaway option for your models.

Ive never had any issues with 3rdRail locomotives. I really wish they would make a properly detailed N&W J. Everything from both Lionel and MTH has the wrong running gear. I know there is a glut of J's out there but none of them are correct.

Just so you are aware, I believe Scott has an ABA of Black Widow F7s left.  That's 3 of the 6 remaining F7s.  I don't recall whether two are 3-rail and one 2-rail or the other way around.

Matt Makens posted:

They do not ask for or require deposits. They do give you the option of making a deposit at your choice and making payments on items. They even provide a layaway option for your models.

Really?

In a way, I feel a bit uneasy. Seemed stange to me that they only wanted hear from people who did NOT plan to carry through with their pre-order? Seems to me, those are the very people who wouldn't bother to reply in the first place?

Can't say as I ever saw any option to leave a deposit . . . and I certainly feel they would be quite justified in doing so.

Here is the message I recently received concerning my E8 order . . .

Dear Valued Sunset Models Customer: We are soon to enter production for these models, so we want to make sure all our reservations are correct. Please review your reservations and let us know only if there needs to be a correction. There is no need to reply if it is correct. We will be sending invoices to you for these models when they are about to arrive in March of 2017. Please note, that we make these models exactly to your reservation, so we consider your reservation as a promise to buy. I. If you are not fully committed now is the time to change your reservation. Thank You, Scott Mann

Depending on the individuals compared, I do not find this to be true:

"I know based on pictures 3rd rail makes locos with detail that severely outclasses the majors." The word "severely" is truly inappropriate.

This opinion is from direct comparison of my "inventory", not photographs. I own several 3rd Rail locos, all steam except for the NYC T-3 electric. I own numerous Lionel, MTH and Weaver steamers. They all sit side-by-side on the layout or shelves.

=====

3rd Rail locos are problematic in my experience - and I own more than one. They have ranged from fine out of the box to "what was that that fell off and hit the floor?". (The loose flywheel on the motor shaft of my SP MT4 was an interesting "feature" - until I found it I thought that I had a bad cruise control. It loosens occasionally...)

Anyway, be prepared for anything; I am sure that many have had excellent luck with 3rd Rail; but I - and others I know - have had some (not all) "annoying" (oh, boy) experiences.  I have only rarely been "annoyed" like that with L or M or W products. The superior detailing - even when present - is not of large degree (looked at a Lionel AC9 lately?).

The thin cross-section of brass construction is undeniably visually nice, however. But my Weaver/Samhongsa locos have that.

Why does that make you feel uneasy?  Scott takes your word and doesnt make you put a deposit on your order. That's just good solid old school business and it seems to be working quite well for him. You certainly have the option to place a deposit by sending them a check or paypal payment but you do not have to do either. you also have the option to continually send them monies to pay down your purchase long before it arrives. They don't advertise this but you can do it and I have a bunch of money on deposit with them to soften the blow of the invoices I get. I just got one this morning for my El Cap cars. But all of this is at your discretion and its up to you to keep track of the money you have sent them. I personally really like being able to do this and take full advantage when I can.

As for only wanting to hear form the people who need to change their reservation, that is just plain efficiency. If you have 100 people who ordered models and you want to confirm the reservation, do you need to hear from all 100 which means 100 phone calls or emails and 100 responses to said phone calls and emails lets say you spend 10 minutes dealing with each person that's 1000 minutes of time or just over 16 hours of time for somebody to confirm info you already have that cost money. But if only 2 people need to change or cancel then its only 20 minutes. Just smart working.

I have a humble opinion, I have one 3rd rail loco, New Haven FL-9. And Ill never buy another. Its been back 3 times for some type of issue and you are looking at a month as it takes 1 week each way. It is a beautiful loco, sounds are low volume, but perfect to look at. Again, in my opinion, I do not believe they are made for Lionel style running. By that I mean hours on the layout and a good clip. I think they are made to look at and run somewhat. For the record, my Legacy loco's have been excellent so far.

Hello Guys and Gals....

Scott Mann of Sunset 3rd NEVER asked me for deposit but I asked him if it possible for a lay-a-way and he said that was fine so we sent a payment for 4 months until it was paid for.  My S.F. 5011 was listed in the boneyard section of his web site and was glad he gave us a chance to pay for it in time (monthly payments).  He is a reasonable man if you're reasonable with him !!

Tiffany

Cincytrains posted:

I have a humble opinion, I have one 3rd rail loco, New Haven FL-9. And Ill never buy another. Its been back 3 times for some type of issue and you are looking at a month as it takes 1 week each way. It is a beautiful loco, sounds are low volume, but perfect to look at. Again, in my opinion, I do not believe they are made for Lionel style running. By that I mean hours on the layout and a good clip. I think they are made to look at and run somewhat. For the record, my Legacy loco's have been excellent so far.

Hello Cincytrains.........

What was wrong with it , was it a mechnical problem or a electronic problem ? When I purchased my S.F.5011, I took it all apart and went through it like a fine tooth comb and yes, there was some problems but I was able to fix it at home. I have had many H.O. brass in the 1980's and they ALL needed some tweaking to be done before running and even Sunset 3rd needed some tweaking too.  I tell you this much ALL brass engines will need some work done before running.

Tiffany

I have 14 3rd Rail locomotives and I love them, but there are things to consider...

My locos go back almost 20 years - Scott has used several suppliers over the years, some designs have been better than others.

Maintenance can be challenging. The 3rd Rail website is clear that after the warranty you are on your own. Their repair guy can be hard to reach. Changing traction tires on their steam locos (or the RDC) can be a real adventure.

Having said that, the models are beautiful and often offer prototypes the big guys don't touch. The value for money is excellent. My FL-9s and E7s happily pull 20 cars around our layout.

CINCYTRAINS raises a good point about running trains for hours  'at a good clip'. I've spent years learning to run trains at scale speeds. I have no argument with running trains at toy train speeds - go with what pleases you. I might agree though that 3rd Rail locos are not meant for that duty.

Jan

HiramO posted:

I have 14 3rd Rail locomotives and I love them, but there are things to consider...

My locos go back almost 20 years - Scott has used several suppliers over the years, some designs have been better than others.

Maintenance can be challenging. The 3rd Rail website is clear that after the warranty you are on your own. Their repair guy can be hard to reach. Changing traction tires on their steam locos (or the RDC) can be a real adventure.

Having said that, the models are beautiful and often offer prototypes the big guys don't touch. The value for money is excellent. My FL-9s and E7s happily pull 20 cars around our layout.

CINCYTRAINS raises a good point about running trains for hours  'at a good clip'. I've spent years learning to run trains at scale speeds. I have no argument with running trains at toy train speeds - go with what pleases you. I might agree though that 3rd Rail locos are not meant for that duty.

Jan

 

Hello HiramO

I do run my Sunset 3rd engine and has about 15 hours of run time on it , no problems at all.  I would not waste money buying to have it sit on a display case, that's throwing money away.  I didn't have any problems because I took it apart and gone through it like a fine tooth comb and fixed few problem areas BEFORE running it for first time.  The way the S.F. 5011 was made, it was made to be run. This engine already has a GOOD heavy duty gear box and drive train in it so it wasn't a problem for this model.   Not all Sunset 3rd engines have heavy duty gearbox like this one had.  The worse one I had was the Sunset "O" scale (2 rail) U.P. 9000 class 4-12-2 back in 1980's and this model has a JUNK plastic gearbox in it so it was a displayed engine but sold it that was a big waste of money thrown away, I will never do that again.  I took big chance in 2012 purchase of the S.F. 5011 and I was very surprised of the gearbox they use for this engine and did restore my faith in their products but still weary of it unless can see close up pictures of the bottom of the their engines in Ebay.  I do not have a income like this anymore so this one is my last brass locomotive as I am on fixed income. Those days are over for me.

Tiffany

My problems were that the first time it just stopped running, and I think the second time was the same issue and it would not take commands. The last time it sounded like gears grinding and would not move without help. I looked at it and couldn't figure out how to get the shell off. I love the loco as I grew up riding behind a FL-9 from White Plains to GCT. But, I am having problems with the dummy for the past year, the lighting goes on and off, but I'm not sending it back for that. I also ran it at scale speed, just a its max, as I have a 22ft straight line.

Well, as Tiffany points out, these models can be complex, sometimes need some tweaking. There can be lemons. I would discuss it with Scott, he is a reasonable and reputable person.

Jan

I do enjoy reading customer experiences to our past and present models. We do make improvements when there are problems with gearboxes and the such and have settled on some very reliable systems in our models since 2005 to now. We also have implemented state of the art 3 D design that has eliminated a lot of errors in production that would cause people grief.

We are always trying to improve our product and add value to the consumers purchase. That's why we are still here.

Enjoy your hobby and think of us when you want something truly special and unique.

YORK OCT 2017: ORANGE HALL DD-01

Bob Heil and I will be there with our bells on. I am carrying over the SP S-12 Green Boiler 0-6-0 Switcher and SD-7 SP Black Widow Samples. Also New Harriman Car Coach and RPO in SP GREEN. We will have models on the table for sale, or sale at a distant (You pay we ship). Haggling is expected. See you guys there. If not, you can always call our friendly staff at: 925-820-7701  MWF 10-4 Pacific Time. 

Looking forward to seeing the regulars and any new customers that happen by.

Regards,

Scott Mann