A-B-B-A rear engine issue

Assuming this is PS-2 3V, the slave unit gets some signal from LEAD A and it should be tested AA just to eliminate tether issues on the Bs.

Flicker can be spring loaded contacts that connect lights to chassis pad.  IL can be burned out.  BUT you would not have ditch lights that work on a slaved PS-2 A unit.  So is the Rear A a full PS-2 3V engine run in lashup/MU?

Or is this PS-3?

Being humorous here.  I have a dog, are they and aggressive breed?  G

@GGG posted:

Assuming this is PS-2 3V, the slave unit gets some signal from LEAD A and it should be tested AA just to eliminate tether issues on the Bs.

Flicker can be spring loaded contacts that connect lights to chassis pad.  IL can be burned out.  BUT you would not have ditch lights that work on a slaved PS-2 A unit.  So is the Rear A a full PS-2 3V engine run in lashup/MU?

Or is this PS-3?

Being humorous here.  I have a dog, are they and aggressive breed?  G

So grateful for guidance!

I actually just posted another thread about some of the tests i've been running.

It's a PS-2 unit, 3V PS-2

I've tested lashed A-A.  Same lighting issues. No sound or power from secondary A unit.

When placed on track independently, I get nothing from the secondary unit. My DCS system can't find it. No power.

Have I failed to set something up properly in DCSS? I realize that probably has nothing to do with the number boards. But how about power?

Thank you!

The slave unit won't run independently, answered in another thread.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

The slave unit won't run independently, answered in another thread.

Just saw that. I responded. Thank you so much for your patience with me. Your advice is invaluable.

Tony

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

The slave unit won't run independently, answered in another thread.

John may I please bother you with one more question here. Should the secondary a unit have some sound function?  I mean it has a speaker underneath it.

Tony

@Tony posted:

John may I please bother you with one more question here. Should the secondary a unit have some sound function?  I mean it has a speaker underneath it.

Tony

Look again, I suspect that "speaker" is just an empty tank.   The slaves typically don't have sound.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Look again, I suspect that "speaker" is just an empty tank.   The slaves typically don't have sound.

Thank you sir!

PS-2 3V slave units only have motor, smoke and light features, no sound.  Lights are normally, Number board, markers, Directional HL, Mars and Interior.  If it has ditch type added, the are powered by one of the other light circuits like HL or IL.  They would not flash alternatively.  Not enough wires in the 10 pin tether or PS-2 3V circuits to run them.  For example PS-2 3V engines do not have rear ditch like PS-3.  Only front ditch. 

The light signals sent to the slave are Rev light, Interior and MARS/Ditch.  Ditch is a misnomer as it would not be alternative flashing since only one wire.  Mars is generated off the slave board.  So normally for Slave the Rev light stand alone.  The number board are fed by IL so three bulbs off IL wire.  If you have MARS it would be its own function flashing in reverse.  If no mars the repurposed MARS2 output on the PS-2 3V board to be non flashing and it is feeding the ditch lights but non flashing.  Otherwise they would flash together vice cycle.  The Lead A has Ditch 1 and 2 and can run independent flashing ditch lights.  G

@GGG posted:

PS-2 3V slave units only have motor, smoke and light features, no sound.  Lights are normally, Number board, markers, Directional HL, Mars and Interior.  If it has ditch type added, the are powered by one of the other light circuits like HL or IL.  They would not flash alternatively.  Not enough wires in the 10 pin tether or PS-2 3V circuits to run them.  For example PS-2 3V engines do not have rear ditch like PS-3.  Only front ditch.

The light signals sent to the slave are Rev light, Interior and MARS/Ditch.  Ditch is a misnomer as it would not be alternative flashing since only one wire.  Mars is generated off the slave board.  So normally for Slave the Rev light stand alone.  The number board are fed by IL so three bulbs off IL wire.  If you have MARS it would be its own function flashing in reverse.  If no mars the repurposed MARS2 output on the PS-2 3V board to be non flashing and it is feeding the ditch lights but non flashing.  Otherwise they would flash together vice cycle.  The Lead A has Ditch 1 and 2 and can run independent flashing ditch lights.  G

Great info and exactly the education I need. So at this point my only real concern then should be the non functioning number board lights.  I'm pulling the shell as I write this...

Why would they very faintly blink? About once a second. Can barely tell they are on with the shell on. Removed but with all electrical connections still attached they are very faintly blinking.

@GGG posted:

PS-2 3V slave units only have motor, smoke and light features, no sound.  Lights are normally, Number board, markers, Directional HL, Mars and Interior.  If it has ditch type added, the are powered by one of the other light circuits like HL or IL.  They would not flash alternatively.  Not enough wires in the 10 pin tether or PS-2 3V circuits to run them.  For example PS-2 3V engines do not have rear ditch like PS-3.  Only front ditch.

The light signals sent to the slave are Rev light, Interior and MARS/Ditch.  Ditch is a misnomer as it would not be alternative flashing since only one wire.  Mars is generated off the slave board.  So normally for Slave the Rev light stand alone.  The number board are fed by IL so three bulbs off IL wire.  If you have MARS it would be its own function flashing in reverse.  If no mars the repurposed MARS2 output on the PS-2 3V board to be non flashing and it is feeding the ditch lights but non flashing.  Otherwise they would flash together vice cycle.  The Lead A has Ditch 1 and 2 and can run independent flashing ditch lights.  G

GGG,

Really appreciate your help. You wrote: "The number board are fed by IL so three bulbs off IL wire."

You're explanation addressed all my concerns. The remaining issue is the lights for the number boards. Just a very faint rhythmic blinking.

The vendor (Trainz) has offered a full return, partial refund, or an offer to attempt to repair it if I send it back.

I won't return it, and I'm hesitant to send it back for repair - especially if I can fix it myself.

What do you think?

Tony

@Tony posted:

GGG,

Really appreciate your help. You wrote: "The number board are fed by IL so three bulbs off IL wire."

You're explanation addressed all my concerns. The remaining issue is the lights for the number boards. Just a very faint rhythmic blinking.

The vendor (Trainz) has offered a full return, partial refund, or an offer to attempt to repair it if I send it back.

I won't return it, and I'm hesitant to send it back for repair - especially if I can fix it myself.

What do you think?

Tony

I would send it back considering my experience level, but it is a very sweet looking engine.

@charles mcdaniel posted:

I would send it back considering my experience level, but it is a very sweet looking engine.

I hate to do that. From what I've learned on this thread it means returning the entire set so they can test it tethered together.

I'm inclined to just live with it for now, but I suspect I'll regret that. I do appreciate your advice though.

I'm poking around checking wires and connections for a  bit while I decide. Hoping to stumble upon the problem.

Thanks again,

Tony

Post some pictures of the lighting area.  Normally they use a PCB board with all the various plugs.  Bad solder joint, plugged in to wrong location, 18V bulb versus 6V.  Does this unit have a MARS light?  G

@GGG posted:

Post some pictures of the lighting area.  Normally they use a PCB board with all the various plugs.  Bad solder joint, plugged in to wrong location, 18V bulb versus 6V.  Does this unit have a MARS light?  G

G,

I figured by now you would be tired of dealing with me. Thanks!

No MARS light. I'll post pics after I get home from work.

Thank you

Tony

@GGG posted:

Post some pictures of the lighting area.  Normally they use a PCB board with all the various plugs.  Bad solder joint, plugged in to wrong location, 18V bulb versus 6V.  Does this unit have a MARS light?  G

No Mars light. Pics from the inside of the unit.

Thanks again GGG

If you remove the interior, you have access to the PCB.  One screw and turn it over and look at pin solder joints.  Trace the control wire back to the slave board but you have Rev Light, Int light, Number board doubled up and wires up to shell ditch.  They are doubled up to so as I suspected they come on steady.  Chances are IL and Number board on the same circuit.  G

@GGG posted:

If you remove the interior, you have access to the PCB.  One screw and turn it over and look at pin solder joints.  Trace the control wire back to the slave board but you have Rev Light, Int light, Number board doubled up and wires up to shell ditch.  They are doubled up to so as I suspected they come on steady.  Chances are IL and Number board on the same circuit.  G

So are you saying they are not wired correctly?

@Tony posted:

So are you saying they are not wired correctly?

I would say, no, we are not directly saying it's miswired- but another known possible failure mode is that lighting distribution PCB is single sided copper traces and given stress on plugging and unplugging the jacks- either when removing the shell or during assembly- it's entirely possible to rip a trace or cracked solder joint and not even have a light connected electrically.

The below board may look normal at a head on view of the bottom (ignore where I was trying to scrape the green solder mask off to make the repair to one already identified cracked joint.

It's when you look from the edge or side view- pushing down the on socket cracked and ripped the copper trace !!!!

Again, look closely, the red socket, the entire solder pad and solder joint, there is a physical gap now between it and the PCB!!!

@Vernon Barry posted:

I would say, no, we are not directly saying it's miswired- but another known possible failure mode is that lighting distribution PCB is single sided copper traces and given stress on plugging and unplugging the jacks- either when removing the shell or during assembly- it's entirely possible to rip a trace or cracked solder joint and not even have a light connected electrically.

The below board may look normal at a head on view of the bottom (ignore where I was trying to scrape the green solder mask off to make the repair to one already identified cracked joint.

It's when you look from the edge or side view- pushing down the on socket cracked and ripped the copper trace !!!!

Again, look closely, the red socket, the entire solder pad and solder joint, there is a physical gap now between it and the PCB!!!

Oh OK! Now I understand. I'll do a careful examination tomorrow and report back.

The vendor wants me to send the entire set back for their diagnosis and repair. I'm not willing to do that. If I can't remedy the problem I'm just going to live with it. I can tolerate the number boards on the rear unit not function.

Update tomorrow. Thanks!

Again, given the symptom of a flickering and dim set of lights- this (cracked solder joints and traces on the lighting distribution board) could easily explain that.

https://www.mthpartsandsales.com/shop/search/results

@Vernon Barry posted:

Again, given the symptom of a flickering and dim set of lights- this (cracked solder joints and traces on the lighting distribution board) could easily explain that.

https://www.mthpartsandsales.com/shop/search/results

AG0000067

PCB / LIGHTING CONNECTOR / PREMIER GP-7 & GP-9

$8.00/ea

Thank you!

FWIW, I did repair my own, using cut off leads from resistors and diodes in my general soldering area waste bin.

I scraped off the solder mask and then flowed additional solder to build up the trace, and used wires to bridge the gaps.

I'm actually ashamed of this photo- that looks terrible. there is no way this was the final repair. Just a snapshot to show the basic idea.

Again, flat out, this is ugly- but hopefully it conveys the basic idea of the repair.

@Vernon Barry posted:

FWIW, I did repair my own, using cut off leads from resistors and diodes in my general soldering area waste bin.

I scraped off the solder mask and then flowed additional solder to build up the trace, and used wires to bridge the gaps.

I'm actually ashamed of this photo- that looks terrible. there is no way this was the final repair. Just a snapshot to show the basic idea.

Again, flat out, this is ugly- but hopefully it conveys the basic idea of the repair.

A **** sight prettier than I can do! But yes, it conveys the idea.

@Vernon Barry posted:

Again, given the symptom of a flickering and dim set of lights- this (cracked solder joints and traces on the lighting distribution board) could easily explain that.

https://www.mthpartsandsales.com/shop/search/results

AG0000067

PCB / LIGHTING CONNECTOR / PREMIER GP-7 & GP-9

$8.00/ea

Vernon and GGG,

An update!

I gained access to the PCB plate. All solder joints etc look good. The plate looks fine - no splits or cracks.

I swapped the red plug (number boards) to the yellow plug (headlight). And discovery!

The number board lights came on, and the headlight began very faintly blinking! You can see it in the pic.

So, the bulbs are fine. The male side of the plugs are fine. It's the female red plug - or back beyond it, that is the issue.

So I'm thinking I may just jump/splice the number board wires with the headlight. Unless you tell me that's a big no-no.

Tony

@Tony posted:

So I'm thinking I may just jump/splice the number board wires with the headlight. Unless you tell me that's a big no-no.

As long as you don't mind the number boards being directional with the headlight it would probably work.  OTOH, the number boards should stay on all the time.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

As long as you don't mind the number boards being directional with the headlight it would probably work.  OTOH, the number boards should stay on all the time.

Yes I'd prefer they were always on too. But not sure where to go from here with that. I'm not willing to send the entire set back.

Tony

@Tony posted:

Yes I'd prefer they were always on too. But not sure where to go from here with that. I'm not willing to send the entire set back.

Tony

Tony, you keep mentioning your unwillingness to send it back.  Why?  I’ve had Trainz repair things.  Seems like they’d be able to sort it for you.  Why settle?  You paid for it.  Get what you paid for.

@MikeH posted:

Tony, you keep mentioning your unwillingness to send it back.  Why?  I’ve had Trainz repair things.  Seems like they’d be able to sort it for you.  Why settle?  You paid for it.  Get what you paid for.

I guess I'm just hesitant to go through the trouble of shipping it back - they want the entire set back - and also run the risk of shipping damage or loss, for a minor issue. I've searched for a long time for this set, and now that I've found it I'm a bit reluctant to let it go and risk losing it. They are willing to compensate me though and refund a portion of the price I paid.

I'm open to your ideas though. Maybe I'm being ridiculous.

Tony

You first post say this happens when engine put in reverse.  The orange wire going to the patch panel is feeding the cab light (IL) and probably the Number Boards.  Do they light fully in forward or neutral?  Or weak all the time.  There is a FET on the slave board that is controlled by the lead engine IL signal that goes to the slave board via the tether.  If damaged, or if you have a pinched wire going to the PCB board that maybe your issue.  If you go to move LNB on the HL circuit which already have 2 ditch lights, you will be at 5 bulbs.  More than mth recommends.  Usually no more than 3 bulbs on a circuit.  You can add a small CV board and drive the Number boards but they would be on all the time.  I would get it fixed.  You don't know if it more will fail on the light circuit.  G 

@GGG posted:

You first post say this happens when engine put in reverse.  The orange wire going to the patch panel is feeding the cab light (IL) and probably the Number Boards.  Do they light fully in forward or neutral?  Or weak all the time.  There is a FET on the slave board that is controlled by the lead engine IL signal that goes to the slave board via the tether.  If damaged, or if you have a pinched wire going to the PCB board that maybe your issue.  If you go to move LNB on the HL circuit which already have 2 ditch lights, you will be at 5 bulbs.  More than mth recommends.  Usually no more than 3 bulbs on a circuit.  You can add a small CV board and drive the Number boards but they would be on all the time.  I would get it fixed.  You don't know if it more will fail on the light circuit.  G

Okay i'm going to take your advice and send it back for repair.

When the combination is moving forward the rear engine has no lights at all. When I switch direction and put it in reverse , the interior cab light comes on and the headlight comes on. So to the ditch lights. The number board lights blink very faintly.

I won't combine the light circuits as per you recommendation. I'll send it back.

Tony

@Tony posted:

Okay i'm going to take your advice and send it back for repair.

When the combination is moving forward the rear engine has no lights at all. When I switch direction and put it in reverse , the interior cab light comes on and the headlight comes on. So to the ditch lights. The number board lights blink very faintly.

I won't combine the light circuits as per you recommendation. I'll send it back.

Tony

You want it fixed right, once. If you love the set, then send it to George ( GGG ) . You’ll get a competent repair the first time …….

Pat

@harmonyards posted:

You want it fixed right, once. If you love the set, then send it to George ( GGG ) . You’ll get a competent repair the first time …….

Pat

See that's the thing. I've searched for this set and it's my prize. I don't want to send it back to the original vendor. Is it an option to send it to George?  I mean, the original vendor isn't going to charge me to fix it, but I'd rather pay and do it right.

@Tony posted:

See that's the thing. I've searched for this set and it's my prize. I don't want to send it back to the original vendor. Is it an option to send it to George?  I mean, the original vendor isn't going to charge me to fix it, but I'd rather pay and do it right.

Click on George’s profile, and send him an email asking him. ….your vendor may fix it, but if they can’t, they’re just gonna refund you & that’s that,……if this were a common set, sure, send it back and no harm no foul if it can’t be fixed, ….but beings this set don’t show up but once in a blue moon, send it to the pro, ……surround yourself with talent, & you’ll never be disappointed, …….😉

Pat

@harmonyards posted:

Click on George’s profile, and send him an email asking him. ….your vendor may fix it, but if they can’t, they’re just gonna refund you & that’s that,……if this were a common set, sure, send it back and no harm no foul if it can’t be fixed, ….but beings this set don’t show up but once in a blue moon, send it to the pro, ……surround yourself with talent, & you’ll never be disappointed, …….😉

Pat

Pat,

Exactly the advice I needed!

Tony

Like Pat said Tony - George has fixed all my "deals" from auctions and special projects the manufacturers never thought of. He's knows this stuff inside out, super craftsman and the turnaround has always been faster than expected. His rates  - and even his shipping and packing - exceed any I've ever dealt with. You will be pleased!

@ryoung3 posted:

Like Pat said Tony - George has fixed all my "deals" from auctions and special projects the manufacturers never thought of. He's knows this stuff inside out, super craftsman and the turnaround has always been faster than expected. His rates  - and even his shipping and packing - exceed any I've ever dealt with. You will be pleased!

I've already sent him an email!

I do hope he accepts to take it on because honestly I feel much better about that than the other options. And I sincerely thank all of you for all of this advice and help through this whole process.

Of course I will fix it.  Thanks for the kind words. G

@GGG posted:

Of course I will fix it.  Thanks for the kind words. G

Advice accepted everyone. Thank you for helping me. Thanks George for taking the mission.

Set was shipped out today.