A Study in SG Motor Conversions

Like this....

This isn't a good picture of it. I will try to find it and take a better one as well as taking a picture of the converted motor.

ARNO

Going with a Doodlebug, Very rough, but it is running. Trying to make as much as possible without buying anything. Gotta do some more rummaging through the parts and junk bins.

Steve

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yH2P2kn4qMo

O my gosh, that is terrific!  It even has reverse! 

You could make it a "Fast Electric Parcel Van"!??

david

Steve, Here is an Ives car I have, that also has a matching trailer car, and it is powered by a modified Marx motor.

Should be similar to the one you are making. It's a good runner.

Then there is this modified Tonka Fire Truck to run on SG track. It is very well done and a superb runner. Not sure what kind of motor it is using or the rear end diff.

I have a few of these made-from-a-toy vehicles and this is by far, the best execution of one of these models. It looks right and runs great.

I touched a bit earlier on the Roberts' Lines use of can motors on their Interurbans. Here are a couple more to look at:

It's a fairly crude set-up, but is powerful enough to pull itself and a trailer around.

A couple of Lionel motors to share, not sure what the first is, but it uses a fair amount of spacers and washers to get the job done.

This Lionel 6-wheel drive is similar to ones previously featured, but this loco has two of them! Mounted with a pair of chopped up Lionel #8's up top.

Neat use of Lionel O-gauge wheels on a stretched out axle. Also note that the original wheels on the gear side have been left in place with only the flanges being turned down.

Last, but not least, is a DC powered loco that has a stupid large motor in it (you can see a bit of the top of it thru the window). But what I like about this is the gearing used to transfer all that torque.

Constructed with a wooden frame and formed metal for the body. Not sure when this loco was made, but considering the size and heft of the pick-up rollers themselves, I would say it was a while ago.

I'll have more as I unpack more...

ARNO

Oh, forgot about this one. I just picked it up of the bay a couple weeks back.

Now, what makes this one interesting is that it is a single-can motor version, and it is mounted horizontally in the frame. The one we are used to seeing is the Williams dual-can motor (seen below)

This is one of the most sought after motors that us kit-bashing, hot-rodding folk look for (Rob Shaubach, I forgot the term for this, help a brother out). It is a very powerful motor unit.

Back to my single-can motor, this one uses a Pittman motor and looks to be wired with a couple diodes in place to make up the bridge rectifier.

I can't wait until I get a little more time to crack this baby open and see what is going on inside. To me, it looks like something I have seen before, but I can not recall where. What do the earliest MTH Conventional motors look like? It also looks like too much work was put into that gear box to just make one or two of these.

Enjoy. That's all I have for you today... promise.

ARNO

Man those locos look interesting... Each one must be worth more to you than a 700E made of gold!

Um.... 700e is O gauge... which means little to me! I'll take the gold though!

Arno

I know where there is at least one more of those can-motor units! I posted these photos on the forum a couple of years ago but nobody recognized them at that time. It looks like there are some minor differences, but basically the same thing. Mine is fitted with a BAL collector plate, you can see the attachment screw in the first photo.  

Interesting that both of them are fitted with steam type drivers. I wonder what locomotive they were built for?

El Classico posted:

Man those locos look interesting... Each one must be worth more to you than a 700E made of gold!

moderneraSG posted:

Um.... 700e is O gauge... which means little to me! I'll take the gold though!

Make that a blue 390E then lol

Thanks Southwest, it is comforting knowing there is another one out there. If you could post photos of all sides (straight on) I would be greatly appreciative. I would like to do some comparisons on these two motors.

Do you have a link to the old thread?

Thanks!
ARNO

Question about this BAL motor:  How does the torque from that longitudinal motor get to the wheels?  Also, can you turn the wheels freely on this mechanism, or is it self-locking?  Thanks!

Ted Sowirka posted:

Question about this BAL motor:  How does the torque from that longitudinal motor get to the wheels?  Also, can you turn the wheels freely on this mechanism, or is it self-locking?  Thanks!

It must be a worm gear; you cannot turn the wheels.

moderneraSG posted:

Thanks Southwest, it is comforting knowing there is another one out there. If you could post photos of all sides (straight on) I would be greatly appreciative. I would like to do some comparisons on these two motors.

Do you have a link to the old thread?

Thanks!
ARNO

I will take some more photos and post, whenever I can find it. I have a lot of Standard Gauge parts, projects, motors, etc. and I'm not sure exactly where that motor is. I tried to look up the other thread but the search function on the new forum is horrible - I can't narrow it down to just the tinplate forum the way I could on the old one. No luck on finding the other thread, but as I recall there was no useful information posted anyway. 

Speaking of can motors...

Nice work, Mr. Nabisco

Mr. Nabisco, I had forgotten about your re-motored Lionel #6, bringing it into the 21st century! Didn't you have an article featuring the conversion? Was in the TC Quarterly or e-Train? Some readers may want to look that up.

Thanks for Posting it.

ARNO

Ted Sowirka posted:

Question about this BAL motor:  How does the torque from that longitudinal motor get to the wheels?  Also, can you turn the wheels freely on this mechanism, or is it self-locking?  Thanks!

Ted,

Like most can motors with a worm gear, the wheels are locked with an idle motor. Looks to have some sort of gear box. I plan on opening it up and taking some pictures.

ARNO

moderneraSG posted

This is one of the most sought after motors that us kit-bashing, hot-rodding folk look for (Rob Shaubach, I forgot the term for this, help a brother out). It is a very powerful motor unit.

 

Tinrodder!  You, sir, are a Tinrodder. 

moderneraSG posted:

Last, but not least, is a DC powered loco that has a stupid large motor in it (you can see a bit of the top of it thru the window). But what I like about this is the gearing used to transfer all that torque.

ARNO

This guy has to take some kind of prize. Kinda limited visibility from the cab, but I empathize, cutting windows with a Dremel is the least fun part of construction.   But the roller pickups are a wonder.  This guy must have just been fed up with flimsy little pickups breaking off.  These are built to last!!

This thread has been great. I love seeing all the interesting motor configurations.

I want one of those can motor BAL units! Don't know what I'd do with it... I just like it.

And thanks for the kind words regarding my #6 project. Some people love it and some people hate it. The conversion was a great success power wise. The Pittman motor is 24v, and when I remove the resistors and run it full power it will fly. It has pulled a train of four #18 series cars at high speed on the big SGMA layout without breaking a sweat. Oh, and I did the conversion before MTH/Lionel came out with their repro #6... I'd be curious to get my hands on one of those new thin rim motors.

I did a full write up on the conversion and rebuild in the TCA Quarterly of October 2009.

 And by the way... I've had one of those Williams twin can motor units. Great unit. I built a frame and put a #50/38 body on top. It flew! They do have an issue tho. The gears are made of a brittle type plastic that will fail. I worked with a TCA member to source out replacements and we got a few. Unfortunately, that was some years ago and I lost the source info and included the gears when I sold the loco. Oops.

Unfortunately, plastic gears are all too common on trains made between about 1970 and 2000. People believed that plastics were a miracle material, and thought of them as much more durable than they turned out to be. CMC/CMT and Richart used a lot of plastic gears, and I live in fear every time I fire up one of those locomotives that a plastic gear will let go. It would be nice if there were some kind of off-the-shelf replacement that would work. The gear ratio wouldn't have to be the same, just in the ballpark and the gears fit the shafts.

moderneraSG posted:

Thanks Southwest, it is comforting knowing there is another one out there. If you could post photos of all sides (straight on) I would be greatly appreciative. I would like to do some comparisons on these two motors.

Do you have a link to the old thread?

Thanks!
ARNO

OK Arno, here you go. I had to move a ladder and several boxes to find it, but I found it! The previous owner appears to have added a manual reverse setup. Also, it looks to me like the BAL collector assembly is an add-on. Yours is probably the way it came. Note that under the collector plate is a crude handmade aluminum plate intended to keep the grease where it belongs. The workmanship on that is not consistent with the rest of the unit, leading me to think it was added later.

Click on the photos for the original size, which is quite large.

Thanks Southwest for posting these pictures, especially the opened gearbox photo. Very similar in construction with only the pick-up plate being different.

Southwest Hiawatha posted:

Unfortunately, plastic gears are all too common on trains made between about 1970 and 2000. People believed that plastics were a miracle material, and thought of them as much more durable than they turned out to be. CMC/CMT and Richart used a lot of plastic gears, and I live in fear every time I fire up one of those locomotives that a plastic gear will let go. It would be nice if there were some kind of off-the-shelf replacement that would work. The gear ratio wouldn't have to be the same, just in the ballpark and the gears fit the shafts.

A good source for gears might be the RC car side of the hobby shop. I looked all over for a gear to replace the nylon one that is often stripped in the 57 Thunderbird Town & Country radio. Finally found one at the hobby shop. All it needed was enlarging the center hole, and it was hardened nickle, too, and cheap!

Roy

Are we talking about worm gear drives here, or straight gear trains? The Williams, CMC/CMT, and Richart can motor drives use worm drives. There are other types of gear sets that could substitute for the worm drive, but whatever goes in there has to do a 90-degree transition. If there are, indeed, gears in the do-it-yourself R/C area that could substitute for model train gears, that would be a great help for a lot of us. 

Regarding the power transfer/gearing question... How about a ring and pinion type setup? Slot cars have been using them forever to get power from inline motors to the wheels in every scale. 

With new materials coming out all of the time, perhaps better gearing could be prototyped and developed on a 3d printer

I used a place called spi.for worm. Worm gear. Off the shelf..  They do make to order..  And there is another ..gearmade.com. I think someone on 0gr posted it.

EDITED,,  gearsmade.com

Steve "Papa" Eastman posted:

Going with a Doodlebug, Very rough, but it is running. Trying to make as much as possible without buying anything. Gotta do some more rummaging through the parts and junk bins.

Steve

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yH2P2kn4qMo

 

 

Haven't had time to putter with this for a while, but it now has a pilot and a light.

Steve

What with the complete rebuild of your layout, I'm impressed that you're keeping up with other projects too!

Love that headlight up on top, that should get the job done!

And thanks for keeping us posted on this, I want to see how the electric express turns out.

david

Southwest Hiawatha posted:

Roy

Are we talking about worm gear drives here, or straight gear trains? The Williams, CMC/CMT, and Richart can motor drives use worm drives. There are other types of gear sets that could substitute for the worm drive, but whatever goes in there has to do a 90-degree transition. If there are, indeed, gears in the do-it-yourself R/C area that could substitute for model train gears, that would be a great help for a lot of us. 

Sorry for the delay. The gears I found were straight. But RC cars have a bunch of different gear styles, so a large RC hobby shop is worth checking out.

hojack posted:

What with the complete rebuild of your layout, I'm impressed that you're keeping up with other projects too!

Love that headlight up on top, that should get the job done!

And thanks for keeping us posted on this, I want to see how the electric express turns out.

 

david

Thanks Dave. Added a trolley pole and found a junk baggage car to steal doors off of. A piece at a time.

Added another home brew to the collection. Similar to others already shown. I cleaned up the wires to AC, forward only. Runs sweet, but will need new drivers before it can be used. Cool conversion, lots of washers. The first picture is the e-bay photo, then my pictures after tidying it up.

Steve

I hadn't seen this thread before. There are some very creative conversions here !

moderneraSG posted:

Last, but not least, is a DC powered loco that has a stupid large motor in it (you can see a bit of the top of it thru the window). But what I like about this is the gearing used to transfer all that torque.

Constructed with a wooden frame and formed metal for the body. Not sure when this loco was made, but considering the size and heft of the pick-up rollers themselves, I would say it was a while ago.

ARNO

What's that beauty's tractive effort like?

Southwest Hiawatha posted:

Click on the photos for the original size, which is quite large.

Southwest Hiawatha, I would LOVE to know how the torque from the longitudinal motor is being transferred to the wheels.  In other words, what's under that aluminum top plate?  I'm sure there's a worm gear in there somewhere, but I would like to see how it's mounted.

It looks like the motor shaft sits too far above the rails to engage a worm wheel mounted on the axle.  So either there is an idler gear arrangement, a tower of spur gears, an arrangement of pulleys driving a layshaft down in the chassis, etc.

Really, I'm seeking more information so I can do a conversion like this in O gauge.  Thanks!!

For gears. Check SPI. That's where i got mine.  Worm and worm gear.

Mth has a large gear on axle for std ga can motor bal. Those other's must be simular.