Thank U Willygee. Looks interesting. I will study that tread in the morning over my cup of coffee and get back to all tomorrow. Father's Day has me exhausted.
I think I'd try something simpler (in my mind) first... I'd find the sound file for the engine in question on the MTH website. I'd take the ADPCM program from Mark DiVecchio, chop out the sounds of interest and turn them with perhaps Audacity or something similar to MP3 clips say ... load these onto the phone or similar blue tooth device -- and then put a small blue tooth speaker in the dummy, etc...
The big issue: sounds under manual control. Another is the clips will never be spot on to what you really want ... but if you get tired of this approach, then it wouldn't be too much to add more computer control to the sounds.
(for example it would not be too hard to play the start up-->idle engine clips in sequence and have the idle clip loop until further notice from a computer)
Thank you for your reply Severn. I have done what you mentioned for single modern dummy engines and created a lot of cool sound tracks with Audacity with recordings of real trains I recorded. This set up is for older A-B-B-A diesels where all units will have the same sound as the lead engine. With bluetooth your limited to one speaker per one transmitter. What I was looking for with my post, was a cleaner pre-amplified sound off the circuit board or a way to get rid of the amplification in the line into a mini amplified speaker. The mini speakers are picking up spikes when the sound is turned up in the lead engine more then half way because output is too strong for the aux input of the mini speakers. Now in WillyGee's project there is a mention in one of your post of installing a 10K ohm resistor in each speaker line before the FM transmitter. Can you tell me what the purpose of doing that is?
I suspect the 10k resistor was to attempt to match the high impedance of the amp input and prevent overdriving the input stage.
I looked at this once before, some of the DCC folks have a line out... but you're not running DCC. Grabbing it off the speaker wire(s) will be after whatever is they do to it. I recall looking at the sound out from willyg i think on audacity and trying to compare it to the raw MTH file of the same... and thinking the lows were gone (or reduced). Then again, I'm not really an expert and could have just been making the data fit the (pre) conclusion.
I'm all for it the idea btw... totally on board. I like the work that's being done to and the ideas... But it's a closed architecture for both lionel and mth in this area even though (some of us) managed to crack aspects of the mth sound file.
gunrunnerjohn posted:I suspect the 10k resistor was to attempt to match the high impedance of the amp input and prevent overdriving the input stage.
And also to protect the PS3 board in case of a short. The 10k and honestly i may have used 100k(its been quite a while) come right of the speaker leads(yellow and white) of the host engine(premier gp35) to a shielded 2 wire that makes its way back to the unpowered engine with the Wireless fm transmitter. I use a button to turn on the fm unit through one of the fans. The shell on the unpowered unit tips right off so i can charge the 2 aa eneloops which btw last hours and hours.Thought about a recharge circuit but not needed.
Thank You John. Willygee, how is your FM transmitter powered? I ordered a few of the rechargeable FM cube receivers to give them a try and do away with my tethered speakers. Maybe the FM transmitter is able to deal with the amplified sound better then the mini speaker circuit.
Dave Zucal posted:Thank You John. Willygee, how is your FM transmitter powered? I ordered a few of the rechargeable FM cube receivers to give them a try and do away with my tethered speakers. Maybe the FM transmitter is able to deal with the amplified sound better then the mini speaker circuit.
2 aa nimh eneloops which btw last hours and hours.
Some early links as i was building this:
https://ogrforum.com/...d-at-loco-is-working
Severn posted:I looked at this once before, some of the DCC folks have a line out... but you're not running DCC. Grabbing it off the speaker wire(s) will be after whatever is they do to it. I recall looking at the sound out from willyg i think on audacity and trying to compare it to the raw MTH file of the same... and thinking the lows were gone (or reduced). Then again, I'm not really an expert and could have just been making the data fit the (pre) conclusion.
I'm all for it the idea btw... totally on board. I like the work that's being done to and the ideas... But it's a closed architecture for both lionel and mth in this area even though (some of us) managed to crack aspects of the mth sound file.
The above is correct...there is enough sound file in the GP35
http://mthtrains.com/search/20-20200-2
where the sounds once processed through the 
give you the full diesel low sound and feel..like you were in the yard. Running as i post this
I tried using a RK SD70ace ps3....not enough file for good sounds..i lucked out with my first try, the GP35 PS3.
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Willy Gee, you don't use a cap across the wires output do you?
I believe that would kill the low end?
Engineer-Joe posted:Willy Gee, you don't use a cap across the wires output do you?
I believe that would kill the low end?
Joe you are right and i might have at the ps3 speaker terminals..its been well over 2 years and everything has worked so well i haven't been in there
or if i didn't put a cap in i have been relying on my subwoofer to filter everything but the lows.**** it sounds good though.
So the 10K resistors are protecting the engines circuit board if something should go wrong. Do you think they may also help to reduce some of the amplification to the FM transmitter and help keep the sound cleaner? Can this protection also be accomplished with diodes so that power can only travel one way, out from the speaker?
Dave..Using my system the ps3 engine speaker wired to the transmitter is still active. It is a member engine of a 5 unit MU. The sound settings on this host engine are :eng vol 40..all other sounds are set to 0 volume. My lead engine: eng vol 0, bell 100, horn 70, cab chatter off etc. In the end..if you had your eyes closed you would think you were in the yard. Sound quality excellent...volumes can be loud to wow the spectators or room filling scale sound.Keep in mind this is DCS which allows all this tailoring.
In the middle of this older video is the 5 unit power(Guilford and PanAm) using the fm transmitter. 4th engine(powered) has the ps3 wired to the 5th engine(unpowered) fm transmitter.
You sold me on the FM, Willygee. Got everything ordered. Hope I don't get kicked out of the house when I put it to use. One big advantge over the bluetooth is the unlimited number of speaker/receivers that can be used. What is the range of these transmitters?
GRJ, In your comment on the resistors, "overloading the input stage" were you referring to the input into the FM transmitter?
One thing I've noticed when I use a bluetooth transmitter with a bluetooth receiver, is that the speaker in the engine also becomes a microphone and will also transmit anything it hears.
The big advantage of the bluetooth (or similar) is in theory you can have it under complete computer control ... if you like that sort of thing. The big disadvantage? You'll never be in sync with the master engine...
But perhaps you can get close.
So vague-ish ideas, but untried ... if you are using DCS, you can use Mark Divecchios RTC program (or pieces of it) to possibly continuously poll the engines state and get some sense of what it is doing -- or if you were just using it (RTC) as the control -- you would in theory know what the engine has been commanded to do -- and therefore any slave sound systems could be put into the right state by the computer mirroring the master engine ...
With Lionel LCS you could maybe watch the bus for commands, do something similar... maybe. The sensor track would send a status packet so to speak but I don't think (well i'm fairly sure but this is from memory) -- that it has the complete state of the engine that's run over it...
Still, such info might help somehow also...
Dave Zucal posted:You sold me on the FM, Willygee. Got everything ordered. Hope I don't get kicked out of the house when I put it to use. One big advantge over the bluetooth is the unlimited number of speaker/receivers that can be used. What is the range of these transmitters?
GRJ, In your comment on the resistors, "overloading the input stage" were you referring to the input into the FM transmitter?
One thing I've noticed when I use a bluetooth transmitter with a bluetooth receiver, is that the speaker in the engine also becomes a microphone and will also transmit anything it hears.
I'm 22 ft x 9 ft...no sound drops.
Five atlas engines. The SW's have the same sound system and Railsound 4 cards. There is enough difference that the sound develop beats/pulsing.
Mouse over click on the triangle.
Severn posted:So vague-ish ideas, but untried ... if you are using DCS, you can use Mark Divecchios RTC program (or pieces of it) to possibly continuously poll the engines state and get some sense of what it is doing -- or if you were just using it (RTC) as the control -- you would in theory know what the engine has been commanded to do -- and therefore any slave sound systems could be put into the right state by the computer mirroring the master engine ...
I would guess that another stationary spare PS board could be programmed into the train and would throttle exactly the way the train does. It would be connected directly to a sound system.
That's what I used to do in HO. I only ran one train though!
Mike CT posted:Five atlas engines. The SW's have the same sound system and Railsound 4 cards. There is enough difference that the sound develop beats/pulsing.
No surprise there, all of the sound systems are being independently driven by their own TMCC receiver. What's being discussed here is multiple speakers, a horse of a different color.
The point I made: Each speaker with it's own drive develops a different effect. Same sound slightly out of sink develops beats.
I'm sure that's true to some extent Mike, but speakers having the exact same audio drive will certainly not be as out of sync as a bunch of speakers all being independently driven by different sound systems, that was the point I made. 
I've put speakers in multiple units, and they do enhance the sound effect, even though there is only one sound source, so it will have a positive effect on the perceived sound, I suspect we can agree on that point.
I've noticed with a bluetooth set up, there is a slight delay, giving an echo effect which sounds kind of cool with whistle and horn. Is there a delay with Fm? Also, how can one keep the speaker from becoming a microphone? The speaker in my engine is picking up track noise. If I remove the bluetooth speaker and take it up stairs I can even hear the TV that's on near the layout.
Dave Zucal posted:I've noticed with a bluetooth set up, there is a slight delay, giving an echo effect which sounds kind of cool with whistle and horn. Is there a delay with Fm?
No delay or echo..some multipathing minimal distant thunder type noise but you had to strain to hear it. Subwoofer hi pass filters minimize most of that.
Also, how can one keep the speaker from becoming a microphone? The speaker in my engine is picking up track noise. If I remove the bluetooth speaker and take it up stairs I can even hear the TV that's on near the layout.
My project on the subject... MTH E8B frame.
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CentralFan1976 posted:My project on the subject... MTH E8B frame.
Not sure what I'm seeing. Is this the basis for a wired or wireless system?
Dave Zucal posted:I've noticed with a bluetooth set up, there is a slight delay, giving an echo effect which sounds kind of cool with whistle and horn. Is there a delay with Fm? Also, how can one keep the speaker from becoming a microphone? The speaker in my engine is picking up track noise. If I remove the bluetooth speaker and take it up stairs I can even hear the TV that's on near the layout.
The tolerable delay will depend on the application. Clearly for Bluetooth speakers for home theater, there will be lip-sync issues if the audio delay is too large or if the video system does not allow delay compensation. Actually I think the video delay adjustment was for the digital delay for external Dolby decoders which has to work pretty hard. OTOH, Bluetooth mini-amps for playing MP3 audio-only from an iPod or whatever seem less demanding on delay. The FM transmitter and receiver are 100% analog (no digital processing/memory) so no perceptible delay.
I understand what you're saying about the speaker becoming a mic, but is there actual signal "gain"? In other words if you are sitting in the room with TV, does the Bluetooth speaker make the TV louder? What's implemented here is a brute-force "splitter" with a Y connection. In other words the two outputs (the speaker and the transmitter input) are just tied together. In an engineered-splitter as used in communications systems, the outputs have some electrical isolation so they do not affect other loads. I don't think it's worth the bother in this case.
I added the two 10K ohm resistors to the line going from the main engine's speaker to the transmitter. What a difference in the sound quality. It totally eliminated the distortion caused by the amplifier. Not only that, the speaker no longer works like a microphone picking up room sounds and track sounds coming up through the wheels. You were right John and Willy Gee, the resistors do prevent the amp from over driving the transmitter. Thanks everyone for your input. On to the next project.
stan2004 posted:CentralFan1976 posted:My project on the subject... MTH E8B frame.
Not sure what I'm seeing. Is this the basis for a wired or wireless system?
These are two Lionel GP38 (non-turbo 567) Trainsounds boards, with volume pots (center) and two big Tang Band speakers.
The engine sounds are powered by the track, and rev up and down with the Hall effect sensors near the wheel with the magnet ring.
Stan2004, thanks for your input. The TV was only about 10 feet from my testy track where the engine's speaker was picking up the sound. Now with the resistors, no more microphone effect.
Dave Zucal posted:Stan2004, thanks for your input. The TV was only about 10 feet from my testy track where the engine's speaker was picking up the sound. Now with the resistors, no more microphone effect.
Dave..glad to see you are trying the bluetooth approach. What bluetooth protocol are you using? At one time i thought of trying bluetooth and 900mhz wireless( like headsets use) but alas the FM transmitter just plain works well. I also run some edited sound clips( Audacity) from my laptop to a large portable bluetooth speaker.
I shall follow your progress with vehemence and zeal
Dave Zucal posted:I added the two 10K ohm resistors to the line going from the main engine's speaker to the transmitter. What a difference in the sound quality. It totally eliminated the distortion caused by the amplifier. Not only that, the speaker no longer works like a microphone picking up room sounds and track sounds coming up through the wheels. You were right John and Willy Gee, the resistors do prevent the amp from over driving the transmitter. Thanks everyone for your input. On to the next project.
Did you have to add the MXR Octaver pedal to get the low frequency?
Engineer-Joe posted:Dave Zucal posted:I added the two 10K ohm resistors to the line going from the main engine's speaker to the transmitter. What a difference in the sound quality. It totally eliminated the distortion caused by the amplifier. Not only that, the speaker no longer works like a microphone picking up room sounds and track sounds coming up through the wheels. You were right John and Willy Gee, the resistors do prevent the amp from over driving the transmitter. Thanks everyone for your input. On to the next project.
Did you have to add the MXR Octaver pedal to get the low frequency?
Yes..with out it sounds didn't get into the 60hz range..more like 300hz using a frequency app on my smartphone. Off i went to my favorite music store (Guitar Center) ran my problem by those guys, they said try this the "octave rig" and if it doesn't work bring it back for a refund. It did the trick..and it has multiple settings to dial end as you please.
Edit..oops this question may have been directed for dave
Joe, I ordered an MxR and can't wait til it gets here. WillyG, the transmitter is an TS-BT35F03 supports A2DP stereo profile. I think its made by I-WAVE. I'm not happy with it because it takes to many attempts to get it to pair. I like the SAGA (SAG2023BT) much better. Pairs easy and transmits much further. The frequency is not listed. There is about a 1 second delay with both. I will be swapping the Bluetooth out when the FM gets here.
Thanks for answering.
Years ago I connected my One Gauge Challenger to a small home speaker directly. The sound was full and rich. Very deep lows.
So I'm just wondering if something is getting lost and where exactly in the chain.
I bought the same transmitters that Willy Gee got and never did anything with them. Every time I've done an install, I've completed it without considering hooking up a transmitter. I think I'd like to hook it up as a stationary decoder and just add it to a train. That way the board could be hooked directly to the sound system without any signal loss of a transmitter. If the decoder is built into a consist, it should react with the same throttle positions. The part I don't like, is I can't figure out how to achieve the full effects of the train entering and leaving the given area of the layout. I got rid of my large mixing console now so again, I'm not attempting this one either.
I feel I'm getting lazy trying new stuff. It's fun to watch others try out stuff though. It's great to have knowledgeable people here to help.
Dave Zucal posted:Joe, I ordered an MxR and can't wait til it gets here. WillyG, the transmitter is an TS-BT35F03 supports A2DP stereo profile. I think its made by I-WAVE. I'm not happy with it because it takes to many attempts to get it to pair. I like the SAGA (SAG2023BT) much better. Pairs easy and transmits much further. The frequency is not listed. There is about a 1 second delay with both. I will be swapping the Bluetooth out when the FM gets here.
Nice range...i love this stuff
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willygee posted:Engineer-Joe posted:Dave Zucal posted:I added the two 10K ohm resistors to the line going from the main engine's speaker to the transmitter. What a difference in the sound quality. It totally eliminated the distortion caused by the amplifier. Not only that, the speaker no longer works like a microphone picking up room sounds and track sounds coming up through the wheels. You were right John and Willy Gee, the resistors do prevent the amp from over driving the transmitter. Thanks everyone for your input. On to the next project.
Did you have to add the MXR Octaver pedal to get the low frequency?
Yes..with out it sounds didn't get into the 60hz range..more like 300hz using a frequency app on my smartphone. Off i went to my favorite music store (Guitar Center) ran my problem by those guys, they said try this the "octave rig" and if it doesn't work bring it back for a refund. It did the trick..and it has multiple settings to dial end as you please.
Edit..oops this question may have been directed for dave
I would have never thought of going to Guitar Center for something like this? Pretty good idea. I usually just go there to drool over the Les Paul's and wish I would have kept the guitar I had in 7th grade and learned how to really play it instead of just fiddling with it.
I will have to go back and look into some of the sound stuff there. I do know they have a lot of it, but I have no idea what most of it is for? Will have to start asking questions while there!
We need our stuff to sound like this. About 10 min 15 sec into video if it doesn't take you there automatically
Engineer-Joe posted:We need our stuff to sound like this. About 10 min 15 sec into video if it doesn't take you there automatically
Coincidentally a while back ,10:00 in the video i recorded the NS SD70...ran it through Audacity and use the clip for sidetrack idling sounds. I have a folder full of choice sound clips from You Tube and Sound Dogs.
You are the man!
( 
well today....)
