AF waffle side box car

From the vast Lionel database.  It's a "brand new" creation based on an O27 car of the same ilk.  Just like the Mint cars...   Unless things have changed, my understanding is it will be the same size thereabouts as a typical Flyer boxcar.

 

While a new edition for the "traditional" Flyer crowd (and I don't have a problem with that...,) scalers will need to move along, nothing to see here.

 

Rusty

When did you see factory installed command control in an SHS engine?

 

SHS did sell decoder-equipped engines.  DCC decoders are a form of command control.  Ed L.

You should have seen the pre-emptive carping about the Flyer 57' mechanical reefer on the Yahoo S Scale board...

 

But anyways...  SHS factory installed DCC (a.k.a command control,) Tsunami sound and fan driven smoke from the bygone era of 2007:

 

Plus, SHS would install DCC (and sound in most loco's) if the customer wanted to order it that way.

 

Rusty

 

In the new post on the Lionel LLC blog.

 

New Product Spotlight – American Flyer Waffle-side Boxcars

 

All new body tooling

• Opening doors
• Metal frame
• Die-cast metal trucks
• Operating couplers

 

The actual car will have all new body tooling. The images shown have the same road numbers from the O Gauge waffle-sided boxcars. At least change the number for the S scale version.

 

Andrew

 

S gauge modelers have to be the most apologetic "please sir, may I have another?" Group of modelers I have ever seen. Honestly, if one questionable 57' freight car (with scale wheels and lobster claw couplers) is enough to keep you happy until next year then I just don't know what to say. I honestly don't understand the community. Just like black balling Scott Mann for something that happened with his father decades ago... Makes no sense to me. My sources told me that Lionel was pulling back. That is evident now. They also told me that MTH was going to reissue everything and IF they sell enough you might see new tooling in the future. That is also pretty evident at this point. I wish it were different, but it isn't. But don't try to point to the Moon and tell me it's the sun because I'm not buying it.

 

If one newly tooled questionable freight car between two companies for the next year isn't doom and gloom I'm not sure what would be... How about the fact that Lionel still hasn't delivered a turnout? Or the story about MTH having issues getting their PS3 electronics into the switchers because the motors are so oversized that there isn't enough room? Not enough? What about the delays with the plain jane Flyer Berkshire? Or total lack of newly tooled scale engines?

 

I don't like coming off negative, but reality is what it is. Perception of that reality is beyond my control.

Well, what do you expect us to do...  Grab our torches and pitchforks and storm the bastions of Lionel and MTH?

 

Hold out breath until we get what we want?  I suspect most of my fellow S'ers like breathing too much.

 

Threaten to take our S business elsewhere?  I don't see a lot of options there.

 

Even American Models and S Scale America have been unable to take advantage of this drought,(Why? Because they were in the same Sanda Kan egg-basket...) even though they know the S market far better than either L or M.

 

I'll agree S isn't an instant gratification scale.  Never was.  Most likely never will be.  SHS usually had only one or two new releases a year.  American Models, even less.

 

Now, Lionel has the self-inflicted wound from the truck fiasco on the hoppers.  We well have to see how that plays out with the next run.  I don't expect Lionel to be SHS or AM, but it seems they go out of their way to make things difficult.  But, most of us have accepted that fact and will deal with things as they are.

 

I've often said that both MTH and Lionel need to send some representation to where S folks gather.  1-2 people, a few sample, listen and talk straight, that's all.  Communicate officially, not through Tom, Dick or Harry.  I gave up looking at the Flyer face book page, last I checked about a month ago, it hadn't been updated since December...

 

It's instructive to remember that even back in the 50's when A.C. and Josh were butting heads, S still did not have the popularity of O and HO.  And, it ain't the 50's anymore...

 

There are those from the outside that think S stands for secret.  S actually stands for Survivor.  S has been through worse times than this.

 

Rusty

Well Rusty, we'll see if Lionel or MTH has reps at next month's convention.
That could tell us a lot.

Lionel was at NASG Milwaukee last time.  But, that was also several managements ago.  We'll see if history repeats itself...

 

Rusty

>>  Just like black balling Scott Mann for something that happened with his father decades ago...

 

I have not seen any "black balling" of Sunset Models.  Scott's problem is that he has not marketed S products effectively.  Few, if any, advertisements.  Nothing at various S conventions or train shows.  And, yes, there is a lingering caution about buying Sunset products because of the numerous errors and defects with past S products.  I'd call this ordinary consumer behavior -- not black balling. 

 

If Sunset announced a nice new quality S product, promoted it with enthusiasm, displayed it at S gatherings, etc., etc., it would sell.  One of the biggest problems is that Sunset listens to their long-established O gauge retail dealers who state there is no demand for S.  Sort of like IBM not getting any consumer interest in refrigerators.  Simply put, Sunset is not reaching out to where the potential S customers are located.  Very strange behavior indeed.

 

"Black balling" is a strong accusation of an entire group without any facts to support it.  I don't think it is fair the to S community.

 

Ed L.

 

 

I'm so tired of the "Scott didn't market his products in the way we want to be marketed to" argument. There were Plenty of people in S aware that Scott wanted to make P class SP Pacifics. There was a HUGE discussion on the S scale list a year or so ago. That is where I learned of the disdain for Sunset in S. It was reaffirmed to me when I tried to get an Erie Berkshire project off the ground with Scott. I got personal hate mail for wanting to bring Scott back into S. So don't tell me I have no evidence Ed. You have no idea what evidence I do or do not have. In fact I have a lot of information that I chose not to share on this public forum to protect the people that have shared the info with me. Scott personally told me that he would pretty much do any S project that we could get enough interest in. Considering the fact that he requires no deposit for pre-orders and all the hate mail I got, I feel just fine with my black balled comment.

 

I wish I was one of you old head S scalers that have been in for decades. I wish I had a layout I could run in the mean time, but I don't. I'm at the mercy of the pace of the mfgs. So is anyone else trying to get into S. There is a diametrically opposed view point here. I have also received feedback from long time S modelers that do NOT want a faster pace of new products. As I said above, I just don't understand...

Rusty, I believe Flyonel changes management every 3 months.
I do hope they do the ES44 in CP though.
Jonny, can't believe you'd get hate mail over something like promoting a new item! 
I've seen Scott's stuff in O and they're beautiful.  A bit far from my pocketbook, but that's my issue, not his. 
I dearly wish folks could just get along, play nice and enjoy this amazing hobby.

I'll agree S folks are hard to figure out. I've been frustrated with that for years.

 

There's still a strong contingent of Flyer enthusiasts that won't look beyond 1959-60. 

 

Likewise on the scale side there are still that want to cling on to the "scratchbuilders scale" (a dead end in this day and age, IMO) philosophy and don't want anything to appeal to the masses.

 

Both these ends of the spectrum view anything outside their comfort zone as "not true S." (For lack of a better polite phrase...)

 

And for folks on the outside looking in, the reaction is usually: "Yeah, neat!  I'd like to switch, but I got too much invested in (insert scale here...)

 

So, what's a mother to do? 

 

S has always been a hard sale, even during the "good times" of the late 80's and 90's.  Even I got tired of telling folks that they'd have to mail order or internet their "S" supplies.  We can't force anyone to change scales, anymore than we can force a manufacturer to build S products. 

 

One of my LHS's carried some new Flyer, to see how it would sell.  The owner told me a few weeks ago he's had ZERO interest in it for over a year,(save for me and another walking dead of model railroading guy) so he's going to stop carrying it.  He'll special order, but won't stock.

 

As far as the "big" manufacturers go, it's still "chicken or egg" and it appears nobody wants to take a chance and make a chicken omelet.

 

So, those of us with the tenacity to stick it out with S, (Even us old f*rts, and yes, I've thought of going back to HO once or twice...) will have to deal with the scale as it exists.

 

Rusty

I can remember being in some hobby shop on Lexington Ave. in Minneapolis and seeing one PC of S.  The size intrigued me but no supply.  Then again, at St. Louis, I'm sure it was Don and wife with literally a tableful of F's that were state of the art.
I'm a slow learner.  Jumped in in 2011, and don't intend to look back. 
There are things I'd like, but, I can live with what I have.
I can appreciate Johnny's dilemma, younger and after it far more than I am.  This last birthday is causing me to understand that my years to enjoy are growing limited, that I'm in the third turn of life. 
I continue to learn, even building 5 scratch built buildings, something I would not have done before.
So, disappointments and all, I'm in S to stay.
Kinda like being married, lots of good looking ladies out there but only one is special.
'Course, my old Grandpappy said, "they're all nice 'till ya live with them".
Done.

I think were getting near a circumstance were smaller Runs of Engines in Brass could be financed through the Kickstarter or Indiegogo type of Web Sites. I have not heard how much tooling is for Brass pieces, but BLI has said that a Diecast Engine in HO costs around $250,000.00 to Tool-Up for and that Brass was much cheaper... A Canadian Store recently tried to raise $50,000.00 for a Run of MTH Passenger Cars that they already had the Tooling for,but only raised a little over $3,000.00... I wonder how much a Run of SUNSET 'S Gauge' Engines would cost..   

>> I'm so tired of the "Scott didn't market his products in the way we want to be marketed to" argument.

 

One thing we probably can agree on is that the existing marketing strategy has not resulted in any new S products from Sunset in many decades.  Perhaps it is time to consider moving to a more effective promotional plan?  Communicating a sales pitch and product message to where the customers are located is not rocket science, y'know.

 

>> That is where I learned of the disdain for Sunset in S.

 

Memories are long when it comes to paying top dollar for brass imports that have serious problems.  Unfortunately, the past cannot be changed at this point in time. 

 

However, I have no disdain for Sunset and neither do any of my closest 100 train buddies in S scale.  Most of us would like to see Sunset get off the dime and do something nice in S and promote it effectively.  A few rotten tomatoes in the bunch do not make for black balling or widespread disdain on the part of the entire S community. 

 

>> I tried to get an Erie Berkshire project off the ground <snip>

>> Plenty of people in S aware that Scott wanted to make P class SP Pacifics.

 

Part of the problem is Sunset's use of unofficial third-party hobbyists to be a spokesman.  Sunset needs to speak for itself in a louder voice in order to be heard.  Their message can be in print, online, in person, trade shows, etc., but it needs to be from Sunset itself and directed to S folks specifically.  This has not happened.

 

Pacifics are known to be poor sellers in all scales.  Ask any HO brass importer and they will all say the same thing.  Pacifics rarely pulled freight trains and folks shy away from them.  The Erie does not have any following in the S community.  It is very difficult for any of us to name just one or two Erie enthusiasts active in S scale. 

 

Sunset's proposed S product choices have been rather poor to put it mildly.  I suspect this is because they have not personally become involved in the S community to find out what is desired.  Asking the O gauge dealers is not the answer to this dilemma. 

 

All of this reminds me of the old adage: "Ask ten S guys what they want, and you will get 12 different answers because two of them will change their minds before the survey is completed."  All of this is true, but darned if River Raisin, SouthWind Models, Des Plaines, SHS, American Models, Smokey Mountain, PBL, PRS, etc., etc. have figured out how to produce successful models which kept them in business for many years.  All of these folks talked with potential customers at length before announcing new products.  Sunset would benefit from doing the same.

 

>> Scott personally told me that he would pretty much do any S project that we could get enough interest in.

 

That is one of the main causes of his S problem:  He wants "we" (us) to do his marketing for him.  He has not demonstrated a willingness to do his own effective marketing directly to S folks.  Everybody in the business will do anything if "we" bring them enough customers with cash in hand.  River Raisin Models has even done AF-compatible brass imports when the money arrived.  If you bring me enough customers with money, I will call up Boo-Rim and get you anything you want.

 

>> I wish I had a layout I could run <snip>  I'm at the mercy of the pace of the mfgs.

 

Why not build a layout using AM track, Gargraves track, Shinohara track, Tomalco track, Fastraxx track, SHS/MTH flex track, etc.  The products are there, but many are not strictly RTR (ready to run).  But they work (or can be made to work) and can be improved in the realism department with weathering and ballast.  Attach a switch motor of your choosing (I like SwitchMaster) and away you go.  AM makes most of the commonly used generic diesels and a small variety of steamers.  Structures abound all over the place.  Various command control systems (DCC, etc.) or DC or AC all exist.  

 

I don't see any major obstacles to building an S layout.  If none of the available products are acceptable for whatever reason, switching to HO would offer a greater variety to choose from. 

 

I guess we can agree to disagree about Sunset, but the strategy of "you bring me enough customers and I will make anything" is simply not resulting in anything new for S. The lazy man's approach to marketing and promotion will not impress anyone nor will it cause them to stand up and take notice. 

 

But none of the above is black balling by the overall S community.  A handful of nastygrams to one person does not constitute black balling by the entire community.  Until a genuine new product is offered by Sunset, most of us will be looking toward other established S firms for new products. 

 

Thoughtfully......Ed L.

It might be interesting to note that even River Raisin did not produce everything they announced.

 

The N&W "J" didn't garner enough reservations (you'd have thought that one would have been a slam-dunk)as did several roadname and detail variations for the USRA 0-6-0.

 

So, nobody is guaranteed anything in S.

 

Rusty

Well Ed. I agree that we should agree to disagree. I could dissect your post as you have mine, but I think I will pass. 

 

The only thing I'll say is that Sunset isn't doing anything different than any other Brass importer. In fact Scott doesn't ask for a deposit. Just a commitment. I don't see where the problem is. O gauge and HO don't seem to have a problem with it. I don't think there are enough people in S that are willing to buy new brass personally. Dan makes great products, but as Rusty pointed out he has had a really hard time of of late getting enough people to put a deposit down on just about anything he wants to make. As I understand, the SP 0-6-0 wouldn't be happening unless he got Boo-Rim to split the order with the 2-6-0.

 

What railroads would you like to have factory painted on the S Scale/S Gauge Waffle-Sided Boxcar?

 

Late 1960's and 1970's era railroads like B&O, C&O, Rock Island, L&N, Illinois Central, Maine Central, and Southern Railway?

 

 

Andrew

Let's hope the final product(with the "new body tooling") looks better than the one shown in that picture...Ugh

 

Mark in Oregon

It looks like they were using the O Gauge model as a stand in for the S Scale model.

 

Andrew

It looks like they were using the O Gauge model as a depiction for the S Scale model.

 

Andrew

Seeing the length is still listed as 8 3/4", same as a traditional A/F boxcar, I wouldn't expect miracles.  I fully expect it to be a scaled down O27 car, like the mint cars and "SP" style caboose.

 

Something new for the traditional folks.

 

Rusty

 

 

You know, I don't have high hopes for the sales of this car. 

For those traditionalists who have built layouts set in the "transition era" this car is not in the right time frame.  For those who want a "modern" car, this car seems to be being furnished with friction bearing trucks (not the appropiate roller bearing trucks). For those who are into "scale detailing", this car will not appeal.

So I am not sure who is going to buy it.  Certainly collectors and "completists" will want it.  I'm not sure who else is interested.

But what do I know?  I thought that the mint cars wouldn't sell because they were too toy like and too "Lionel" to appeal to the AF enthusiasts.

I hope the Waffle Side Boxcar sells great and inspires Lionel to make lots of other new product (some of which will appeal to me, I hope.)

Little Tommy

These Waffle-Sided Boxcars are supposed to be a scale 50' Long or 9 3/8" actual length from end-post to end-post. Coupler length not included.

 

If the dimension of 8 3/4" long is accurate for the finished model, then they made a huge error. If they included the coupler length then the error is worse.

 

This is supposed to be actual 1/64th scale to match the Scale U30C and U33C diesel-electric locomotives from the same time period.

 

Andrew

Here is in image of a Waffle-Side Boxcar shorter than 50' long.

 

 

Is this what they are trying to make?

 

It has roller bearing trucks.

 

 

Andrew

Seeing the waffle side boxcar isn't cataloged by the cylindrical hoppers and 57' mech. reefers, but with the other traditional cars, I strongly suspect it will pretty much match a traditional Flyer boxcar dimensionally. 

 

Lionel doesn't have a scale O version of the waffle side boxcar, I doubt they'd tool up a scale version for Flyer.

 

Rusty

The Traditional O Gauge Waffle-Side Box Car has a length of 50' in S Scale. It would not be too hard for them to use that body to make a new mold that has the width of the Boxcar correct.

 

If they can not make it properly, then the draftsmen and mold makers need to buy new scale rulers.

 

Andrew

Ultimately, it says "American Flyer by Lionel" on the box.

 

Maybe a sample will make it's way to Milwaukee for the NASG convention next week...

Maybe not...

 

Rusty