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There is something else that plays into the C&O decision to suddenly scrap all the Alleghenies. They were too "fat."

Lima had a weight limit target to hit with this locomotive. When the time came to weigh the first, completed locomotive, everyone was told to leave the scale house with the exception of two Lima execs. They weighed the engine and lo and behold, she hit the weight mark almost exactly! Good thing...there was a penalty clause in the contract that would cost Lima big bucks if they were overweight.

It was not until several years later that the C&O discovered that the locomotive actually weighed 75,000 pounds more than they were supposed to! When the C&O discovered this, they immediately mounted a huge campaign to inspect all of their bridges, since everywhere the 1600s ran, the bridges had all been overloaded by 75,000 pounds! Some of the bridges required work to repair damage caused by this overweight condition.

This discovery and the resulting penalties which Lima had to pay almost broke the Lima Locomotive Works. And it certainly hastened the retirement of these big locomotives.

1949 was a bad year financially for C&O, and this helped open the door for internal combustion.   First to go was Chessie's brand new C16 switchers...in a great deal for VGN. and N&W.   Next was passenger power, but nobody wanted what they were unloading...so they died ugly and fast.   The freight power stayed longest, but on a road the size of C&O that would not be long.   The old EMD salesman used to say Diesel did twice the work of steam at half the cost.  I disagree !   Probably more like ten times the work.....at one tenth the cost.   Roads that bought large fleets of EMD power would have the greatest cost advantages.

Tiffany posted:

Hello guys and gals......

Santa Fe replaced the 5011 class 2-10-4's with 4 F-3's ABBA sets in the steam's final years on the Santa Fe.  It took 4 unit diesels to be in same horsepower range as the 5011 class has !!!  In my opinion, Santa Fe should kelp the 5011's for another 10 years.

Tiffany

You are obviously overlooking all the HUGE labor expenses involved with operating and maintaining steam locomotives. Did you not read any of the posts previously in this thread?

Hot Water posted:
Tiffany posted:

Hello guys and gals......

Santa Fe replaced the 5011 class 2-10-4's with 4 F-3's ABBA sets in the steam's final years on the Santa Fe.  It took 4 unit diesels to be in same horsepower range as the 5011 class has !!!  In my opinion, Santa Fe should kelp the 5011's for another 10 years.

Tiffany

You are obviously overlooking all the HUGE labor expenses involved with operating and maintaining steam locomotives. Did you not read any of the posts previously in this thread?

Hello Hot Water.

Yes I have at least those men HAVE jobs !!!!!!!!!! That's important, today most jobs went flying to overseas. Not interesting in CEO's HUGE profits that go to their pockets instead of going to those guys that keeps steam locomotives running  pockets where it belongs.

Tiffany

Last edited by Tiffany
Tiffany posted:
Hot Water posted:
Tiffany posted:

Hello guys and gals......

Santa Fe replaced the 5011 class 2-10-4's with 4 F-3's ABBA sets in the steam's final years on the Santa Fe.  It took 4 unit diesels to be in same horsepower range as the 5011 class has !!!  In my opinion, Santa Fe should kelp the 5011's for another 10 years.

Tiffany

You are obviously overlooking all the HUGE labor expenses involved with operating and maintaining steam locomotives. Did you not read any of the posts previously in this thread?

Hello Hot Water.

Yes I have at least those men HAVE jobs !!!!!!!!!! That's important, today most jobs went flying to overseas.

Tiffany

No. Back in the late 1940s thru the late 1950s those railroad jobs did NOT go "flying overseas"! They either retired or went and found other jobs that needed their skills.

Hot Water posted:
Tiffany posted:
Hot Water posted:
Tiffany posted:

Hello guys and gals......

Santa Fe replaced the 5011 class 2-10-4's with 4 F-3's ABBA sets in the steam's final years on the Santa Fe.  It took 4 unit diesels to be in same horsepower range as the 5011 class has !!!  In my opinion, Santa Fe should kelp the 5011's for another 10 years.

Tiffany

You are obviously overlooking all the HUGE labor expenses involved with operating and maintaining steam locomotives. Did you not read any of the posts previously in this thread?

Hello Hot Water.

Yes I have at least those men HAVE jobs !!!!!!!!!! That's important, today most jobs went flying to overseas.

Tiffany

No. Back in the late 1940s thru the late 1950s those railroad jobs did NOT go "flying overseas"! They either retired or went and found other jobs that needed their skills.

I was talking those guys back then today those guys are retired or not living.  You know what I am talking about !!!!  I didn't say "railroad" jobs went overseas LOL.   If CEO's get their ways many left over jobs HERE soon replaced with robots (car companies did that in 1960's if not before).  Can you imaged going to McDonalds and robot takes your order at the cashier ?  If you're not nice the robot boots you out the door.  I go to McDonalds for 1 dollar ice tea as I walk a lot (few miles at a time).

Tiffany

Rusty Traque posted:

Diesels were starting to make inroads on the railroads prior to WWII.  The War Production Board limited what diesels could be sold and to which railroad.  As a result, there were steam locomotives that wouldn't have otherwise been built if it weren't for the war and the railroads would have dieselized earlier.

Rusty

Hello guys and gals......

Love those early diesels !! Like those Alco's and EMD's and F.M.'s   The large FM's were ahead of its time.

Tiffany

OGR Webmaster posted:

There is something else that plays into the C&O decision to suddenly scrap all the Alleghenies. They were too "fat."

Lima had a weight limit target to hit with this locomotive. When the time came to weigh the first, completed locomotive, everyone was told to leave the scale house with the exception of two Lima execs. They weighed the engine and lo and behold, she hit the weight mark almost exactly! Good thing...there was a penalty clause in the contract that would cost Lima big bucks if they were overweight.

It was not until several years later that the C&O discovered that the locomotive actually weighed 75,000 pounds more than they were supposed to! When the C&O discovered this, they immediately mounted a huge campaign to inspect all of their bridges, since everywhere the 1600s ran, the bridges had all been overloaded by 75,000 pounds! Some of the bridges required work to repair damage caused by this overweight condition.

This discovery and the resulting penalties which Lima had to pay almost broke the Lima Locomotive Works. And it certainly hastened the retirement of these big locomotives.

I've never read that. Thanks for sharing.

Rusty Traque posted:

Diesels were starting to make inroads on the railroads prior to WWII.  The War Production Board limited what diesels could be sold and to which railroad.  As a result, there were steam locomotives that wouldn't have otherwise been built if it weren't for the war and the railroads would have dieselized earlier.

Rusty

Exactly.  Several classes of steam locomotives would never have been built if it hadn't been for the war, and the War Production Board.  B&O EM-1 2-8-8-4, Santa Fe 2900 class 4-8-4 and 5011 2-10-4, UP 4020 4-8-8-4, FEF-3 4-8-4, and "Jabelmann 4-6-6-4's were all the result of the railroads not being able to buy diesels.

Stuart

 

Tiffany posted:

hello guys and gals........

Was the Virginian class AE 2-10-10-2  of 1918 ahead of its time in steam design or it too had a short life span ?

 

Tiffany

 

They were very successful.  Virginian wanted to order more, but the USRA wouldn't let them.  The AE's lasted over 30 years in regular service.

Stuart

 

According to the book The Allegheny:  Lima's Finest  by Eugene Huddleston and Thomas Dixon the H-8's were designed to weigh 724,500 lbs.  Somehow, 24" of length of the locomotive was missed in the calculations.  Remember, that's two feet in length, by ten feet in width, by fifteen feet in height.  As a result, the first class of H-8's (1600-1644) ended up weighing over 778,000 lbs (more than the Big Boys).

When Virginian ordered their class AG 2-6-6-6's, Lima advised them about the "weight problem" with the 2-6-6-6.  Lima had managed to "reduce" the weight of the 2-6-6-6 to 753,000 lbs.  Virginian said that wasn't a problem for them.

C&O ended finding out about the weight problem of their H-8's when Virginian was going to take deliver of their AG's.  C&O balked about allowing the overweight engines to be shipped over their tracks. Virginian replied by telling them that they had been running their H-8's at that weight or more since 1941!

The second batch of C&O H-8's "only" weighed 751.830 lbs.  As it was previously mentioned Lima lost all of its profit on the suit with C&O.

Stuart

 

Last edited by Rich Melvin
Stuart posted:

According to the book The Allegheny:  Lima's Finest  by Eugene Huddleston and Thomas Dixon the H-8's were designed to weigh 724,500 lbs.  Somehow, 24" of length of the locomotive was missed in the calculations.  Remember, that's two feet in length, by ten feet in width, by fifteen feet in height.  As a result, the first class of H-8's (1600-1644) ended up weighing over 778,000 lbs (more than the Big Boys).

When Virginian ordered their class AG 2-6-6-6's, Lima advised them about the "weight problem" with the 2-6-6-6.  Lima had managed to "reduce" the weight of the 2-6-6-6 to 753,000 lbs.  Virginian said that wasn't a problem for them.

C&O ended finding out about the weight problem of their H-8's when Virginian was going to take deliver of their AG's.  C&O balked about allowing the overweight engines to be shipped over their tracks. Virginian replied by telling them that they had been running their H-8's at that weight or more since 1941!

The second batch of C&O H-8's "only" weighed 751.830 lbs.  As it was previously mentioned Lima lost all of its profit on the suit with C&O.

Stuart

 

Stuart,

I have read The Allegheny:  Lima's Finest by Huddleston and Dixon.  I don't remember reading that the weight overrun was caused by the designers missing 24" of locomotive length in their calculations.   That wouldn't explain the fact that when Lima weighed a locomotive from the first order, they reported to C&O that it met the 724,500 lb design requirement (which it did not).  In fact, locomotives of the first order weighed in excess of 770,000 lbs and possibly as much as 778,000 lbs.  Eugene Huddleston wrote an article that appeared in the December 1998 Trains magazine (“Doctoring the Scales: The Case of the Overweight Alleghenies.” ) that presented extensive research on the weight controversy and speculated about how the weights reported to C&O were misstated.  His book (...Lima's Finest), also describes instances of interference in the Lima design process by the C&O parent company's Advisory Mechanical Committee.  Members of the AMC insisted, for example, on multiple design changes to the rods which unnecessarily added weight.  There were other examples.  

Lima had a weight engineer responsible for keeping track of the weights of all components.  I think Lima probably knew that the engines were significantly overweight from the AMC interference, but were pressured by the AMC to keep quiet and were probably assured that the weight overrun would be overlooked.  It didn't turn out this way, as it has been reported that C&O eventually went after Lima for a $3 million penalty.  Fortunately, there were no accidents (bridge failures, etc.) attributable to the excess weight of the H-8's while they were in service.

Last edited by sgriggs

#2 diesel has a heat value of about 19,000 btu's per lb. (from my memory). The best grade of coal (evidently used by PRR) had about 14,600 btu's per lb. In a steam locomotive, coal was used "once" for a few seconds and was then exhausted. So a RR went to all of the trouble to heat the water to steam with a superheat temp. of up to 760 degrees, used it ONCE in the cylinders for one half of one driving wheel revolution, and exhausted it out the stack! That is why "internal combustion" is a lot more efficient than "external combustion" ie a firebox. A significant part of most railroads' freight traffic was moving coal around, and some western roads like ATSF also had to move water. All of that vanished with the diesel.

The most powerful locomotives ever built had a CALCULATED starting tractive effort of up to 180,000 lb. (DM&IR 2-8-8-4). the UP Big Boy was 135,375. There was no adhesion system on a steam engine and EVERYTHING depended on the skill of the engineer, AND the weather and whether the engine had sand. To go downhill, you apply the train brakes and have to wait for the wheels to cool.

Modern diesels have tractive effort packages rated at up to 216,000 lb, and an adhesion system to maximize it. And an electric braking system that in many cases does not require train braking, or requires it as a supplement to the train brakes.

When GM started to dieselize the railroads, the most common steam locomotive in the country was a 2-8-0 dating from the first world war. This industry was crying for modernization. Most railroads would have been dieselized by the start of WWII if the railroads, coming out of the depression, had the money to do so. So steam was retained for the duration of the war, and then retained as backup power through the Korean war era. The railroads could not get diesels fast enough.

I regard myself as a "steam guy", but you can't overlook economics.....

Don't forget one of the first railroad to dieselize is now all steam, The
Strasburg railroad.

Funny thing is diesels are harder on track in an odd way, with out guiding trucks they push track out of gauge , something that caused more than a few derailments and an expensive track upgrades. It was most likely easier to improve the road bed to accept the lost hammer blow from the drive wheels of steamers, flywheels if they were not load bearing. Last i knew SP&S 700 had one of the highest axle loads in the world at 31 tons, The Y6B if memory serves was about 21 tons after water and lead wights were added for better balance.

I honestly think one should start with a small 0-4-0 for experiments for modern steam, rather than jumping to the final main line product. They might get some funding and get some work done, than jumping for the far more complicated and expensive 2-8-8-2 locomotives. Diesels had a similar path starting out as mostly switchers, as did steam with mostly 0-4-0's in the 1800's.

As for a working condensing locomotive look up the South African Class 25 4-8-4, they were a great success, even with blowers.

sgriggs posted:
Stuart posted:

According to the book The Allegheny:  Lima's Finest  by Eugene Huddleston and Thomas Dixon the H-8's were designed to weigh 724,500 lbs.  Somehow, 24" of length of the locomotive was missed in the calculations.  Remember, that's two feet in length, by ten feet in width, by fifteen feet in height.  As a result, the first class of H-8's (1600-1644) ended up weighing over 778,000 lbs (more than the Big Boys).

When Virginian ordered their class AG 2-6-6-6's, Lima advised them about the "weight problem" with the 2-6-6-6.  Lima had managed to "reduce" the weight of the 2-6-6-6 to 753,000 lbs.  Virginian said that wasn't a problem for them.

C&O ended finding out about the weight problem of their H-8's when Virginian was going to take deliver of their AG's.  C&O balked about allowing the overweight engines to be shipped over their tracks. Virginian replied by telling them that they had been running their H-8's at that weight or more since 1941!

The second batch of C&O H-8's "only" weighed 751.830 lbs.  As it was previously mentioned Lima lost all of its profit on the suit with C&O.

Stuart

 

Stuart,

I have read The Allegheny:  Lima's Finest by Huddleston and Dixon.  I don't remember reading that the weight overrun was caused by the designers missing 24" of locomotive length in their calculations.   That wouldn't explain the fact that when Lima weighed a locomotive from the first order, they reported to C&O that it met the 724,500 lb design requirement (which it did not).  In fact, locomotives of the first order weighed in excess of 770,000 lbs and possibly as much as 778,000 lbs.  Eugene Huddleston wrote an article that appeared in the December 1998 Trains magazine (“Doctoring the Scales: The Case of the Overweight Alleghenies.” ) that presented extensive research on the weight controversy and speculated about how the weights reported to C&O were misstated.  His book (...Lima's Finest), also describes instances of interference in the Lima design process by the C&O parent company's Advisory Mechanical Committee.  Members of the AMC insisted, for example, on multiple design changes to the rods which unnecessarily added weight.  There were other examples.  

Lima had a weight engineer responsible for keeping track of the weights of all components.  I think Lima probably knew that the engines were significantly overweight from the AMC interference, but were pressured by the AMC to keep quiet and were probably assured that the weight overrun would be overlooked.  It didn't turn out this way, as it has been reported that C&O eventually went after Lima for a $3 million penalty.  Fortunately, there were no accidents (bridge failures, etc.) attributable to the excess weight of the H-8's while they were in service.

I found the reference to the missing length.  It wasn't 24" but 36".  Pages 67-68 of The Allegheny:  Lima's Finest:

Mr. Cunningham recounts the sequence of events that led to the enormous weight "overrun for 1600-1609.  "The original preliminary design specifications for the 2-6-6-6 were from the Advisory Mechanical Committee and called for 695,000 lbs weight in working order.  I was given this information on a Monday Morning by Mr. A.J. [Bert] Townsend and by Friday I said 724,500 minimum to their deisgn and specifications.  About two weeks later, Mr. M.J. [Mike] Donovan from the Advisory Mechanical Committee came to Lima to compare notes, etc.  We found an AMC error of 36" length left out of the boiler in the combustion chamber [boiler shell, staybolts, firebox combustion chamber and water] or approximately 30,000 lbs, if my memory is right, (thus accounting for the discrepancies in estimates).  Mike went back to Cleveland and later a formal specification and preliminary design was submitted.  Analyzing these new specifications showed additional increases of about 15,000 lbs.  During construction I kept track of other weight increases by AMC officials until 35,000 lbs. more had been added, bringing the total to 759,500 lbs.  When I pointed this out to Bert Townsend, I was told, "Forget it," which I did.  Still more was added, but I do not know how much.  Before the first locomotive was built, the second order (1610-1619) was placed and the drawing room started cutting weight - steel tubes for main steam pipes vs. cast steel, etc."

Stuart

 

Stuart posted:

I found the reference to the missing length.  It wasn't 24" but 36".  Pages 67-68 of The Allegheny:  Lima's Finest:

Mr. Cunningham recounts the sequence of events that led to the enormous weight "overrun for 1600-1609.  "The original preliminary design specifications for the 2-6-6-6 were from the Advisory Mechanical Committee and called for 695,000 lbs weight in working order.  I was given this information on a Monday Morning by Mr. A.J. [Bert] Townsend and by Friday I said 724,500 minimum to their deisgn and specifications.  About two weeks later, Mr. M.J. [Mike] Donovan from the Advisory Mechanical Committee came to Lima to compare notes, etc.  We found an AMC error of 36" length left out of the boiler in the combustion chamber [boiler shell, staybolts, firebox combustion chamber and water] or approximately 30,000 lbs, if my memory is right, (thus accounting for the discrepancies in estimates).  Mike went back to Cleveland and later a formal specification and preliminary design was submitted.  Analyzing these new specifications showed additional increases of about 15,000 lbs.  During construction I kept track of other weight increases by AMC officials until 35,000 lbs. more had been added, bringing the total to 759,500 lbs.  When I pointed this out to Bert Townsend, I was told, "Forget it," which I did.  Still more was added, but I do not know how much.  Before the first locomotive was built, the second order (1610-1619) was placed and the drawing room started cutting weight - steel tubes for main steam pipes vs. cast steel, etc."

Stuart

 

Stuart,

I stand corrected on the boiler length calculation error.  

Boy, Lima really got screwed there, didn't they?  The AMC guys forced in a lot of the added weight, basically told Lima not to worry about it, and then stood by without saying a word when C&O came looking for a big check. For what it's worth, the AMC didn't do C&O any favors either.  The AMC was driven by individuals who seemed to have a personal agenda to outdo rival N&W.   They designed a tremendous locomotive that just wasn't what the C&O needed for hauling their coal out of the mountains..  They would have been far better served with a modern compound like the Y6.   At the very least, it would have been better to have a locomotive with reasonable axle loadings, a greater proportion of weight on the drivers, and a higher starting TE.  The Allegheny as designed would have been ideal pulling mile-long freight trains on the NKP at 50mph.

Scott

Dominic Mazoch posted:

1.  Were there people from the C&O on the AMC?

Yes.

2.  Why didn't the C&O go after the AMC as well as Lima for $$$$$?

The C&O was part of the AMC, thus they went "after Lima".

3.  C&O had a great 2-10-4 which might have given them better service.

The T-1 class 2-10-4s were certainly excellent locomotives, and gave excellent service, right to the end of steam on the C&O. But,,,,,,,,they couldn't hold a candle to the HP and tractive effort of the H-8 class.

 

I think that they could. It appears based on running times for C&O T-1 hauled trains vs H-8 hauled trains, the terminal to terminal time was about the same. You can conclude that the operation did not favor the higher HP of the Allegheny, and you would be correct. But the time book reprinted in various books about the Allegheny shows that T-1's and H-8's were used interchangeably by the C&O.

The C&O T-1 was one of the greatest steam designs. I am sure you all know that PRR chose the T-1 over the N&W A, and I think I know a few reasons why. Both the C&O engine and the N&W A weighed about the same, 573,000 lb. The C&O engine could be started at "full" cutoff, about 85%. The N&W A was a limited cutoff design with a cutoff of 77% (based on its calculated starting tractive effort). Due to its limited cutoff, its factor of adhesion was 3.79, while the C&O engine was over 4.0, making it inherently less slippery. Designers of simple articulateds fought for maximum weight on the front engine in every design. When PRR tested the "A", they noted the engine's tendency to slip on its test. The five coupled T-1 evidently was a better performer when the "going got tough", at low speeds and with less than perfect adhesion.

UP solved this front engine adhesion issue on their late Challengers by designing a two point suspension (attachment) of the front engine to the frame that was so rigid that the springing was required to make all adjustments for vertical curvature, etc. By the way, the UP late challengers weighed 627,000 lb. vs the N&W "A" class weight of 573,000. And a Challenger could use full cutoff in starting a train. A comparison of "starting tractive effort" is meaningless if the engine can't keep its feet. A Challenger had inherently a heavier front engine with its four wheel lead truck and massive cast pilot. (The N&W "A"'s were also retrofitted with a heavier front pilot casting, perhaps to improve adhesion performance.) I believe that the UP Challenger was a better high speed design than the "A". It had smaller diameter cylinders than the "A", (21" vs 24"). It had a longer stroke (32" vs 30"), and its dimension across the cylinders was lower. (The N&W "A" was 92". I do not have this dimension for the Jabelman Challengers but for the small UP Challengers this dimension was 89" with one inch larger cylinders (22" vs 21"). So the main and side rod mass is closer to the railhead on the UP Challengers, and the four wheel lead truck, in addition to adding weight to the front engine, would have a lower tendency to "nosing".

I read the famous written comparison of the UP challenger and the N&W "A", and the claim that furnace volume was compromised on the Challenger due to the need to locate a part of the direct heating surface over the rear drivers. Furnace volume on both engines is about the same (581 sq ft on the Challenger vs 587 for the "A"). What the pictures do not show is that a UP Challenger was over 4 inches taller than the "A". (16'-2-1/2" vs 15'-10-1/8"). A UP Challenger had 20 ' long tubes while the N&W "A" tube length was 24'-11". My guess is that the Challenger steamed better. It had to, it used lower btu coal!

The PRR tested the J on the Altoona test plant, and minus tender its drawbar HP was in the 5200 range. When PRR tested the "A", the drawbar HP at the rear of the tender was 5200, although an old N&W mechanical dept. man told me that an "A" "could do 5500 drawbar HP all day long". UP rated the Challengers at 5400 maximum cylinder HP using UP coal, which was inferior to that used by N&W. So the drawbar HP of a UP Challenger would have been lower than the N&W "A". The N&W "A"'s performance on coal is often cited as the broad operating range of this engine. I saw and photographed N&W "A" #1222 on a Portsmouth to Williamson coal train in August of 1958, and the "A" had to be given a push by mallet #2059 to get out of the yard. An "A" could do a creditable job on coal as long as it did not have to stop, and I think that was a major reason why these engines were fitted with canteens. The "A" was pluperfect for N&W on east end manifest trains, and the UP Challenger was a great design for manifest service on UP, such that at least six other railroads also adopted this wheel arrangement for similar service.

I am enjoying these postings very much, and mean no offense to either N&W or UP fans.

PS. In my post above, the TE of the DM&IR 2-8-8-4 was 140,000, not 180,000.

I don't believe that is true. My point is that they were not optimized for coal. They did set records for GTM/train Hour in coal, and at various points, at least out of Portsmouth, that required a helper as I indicated. One book on the "A" indicated that at one watering point (Prichard?) if a coal train with an "A" stopped for water, the local switcher was used to get the train rolling again. Whether the tonnage rating for an "A" on these districts assumed that a helper would be available, I can't say,

ARC posted:

Was there a particular reason why the 1601 and 1604 were chosen to be saved? I've heard that the later units had several improvements and were in better shape.

As I've heard about 1601 (which is located at my place of employment), we were actually supposed to receive a working engine in good shape but it was needed for service at the last minute and 1601 was sent instead.  From what I understand it's a pretty tired engine.

Dominic Mazoch posted:

I am surprised the N&W A used a 2 instead of a 4 wheel engine truck.

There were several advantages to using a two wheel engine truck instead of a four wheel one:

1.  More weight on the drivers instead of on the engine truck;

2.  Valve gear parts are the same for both the front and rear engines, since the distance between the cylinders and drivers is the same;

3.  Because of the shorter wheel base the firebox could be completely behind the drivers, allowing the firebox to be deeper, and the boiler to be mounted lower.

Stuart

 

Last edited by Stuart
Stuart posted:
Dominic Mazoch posted:

I am surprised the N&W A used a 2 instead of a 4 wheel engine truck.

There were several advantages to using a two wheel engine truck instead of a four wheel one:

1.  More weight on the drivers instead of on the engine truck;

2.  Valve gear parts are the same for both the front and rear engines, since the distance between the cylinders and drivers is the same;

3.  Because of the shorter wheel base the firebox could be completely behind the drivers, allowing the firebox to be deeper, and the boiler to be mounted lower.

Stuart

 

I did have the same question concerning the Berk.  The Lionel 726 is not scale, but I can understand the concept of the firebox being completely behind the drivers.  Thanks for your answers.

pennytrains posted:

Is it a stretch to say that the A's were successful largely due to helper service?  At least on heavy grades or overweight consists?

The A's were not N&W's first choice for heavy grades.  The compound Y6 was a more capable locomotive on steep grades because of its much higher weight on drivers (>520,000 lbs compared to 433,000lbs for the A), shorter drivers, and a "booster valve" that allowed an injection of high pressure steam in the low pressure cylinders under certain operating conditions.

The A's were successful because they were an excellent design for moving heavy trains over rolling profiles and for moving lighter time freights at high speeds.

OGR Webmaster posted:

There is something else that plays into the C&O decision to suddenly scrap all the Alleghenies. They were too "fat."

...

This discovery and the resulting penalties which Lima had to pay almost broke the Lima Locomotive Works. And it certainly hastened the retirement of these big locomotives.

My understanding are the crews were paid by the weight of the locomotive, back in the day, at least on some roads.  For examples, I have heard one reason PRR crews preferred the 2-10-4 J1 (based on the C&O T-1) (579,975 pounds) to the I1 2-10-0 (386,100 pounds) was they received more pay. 

So did the discovered increased weight of Alleghenies lead to crews receiving back pay and was that part of the suite against Lima?  Anyone know?

Cheers,

Bob

 

Re back pay, the Great Northern was forced to issue back pay, when members of the operating brotherhoods demanded a re-weigh of a number of Big G steam locomotives. The locomotive that prompted the multi-class re-weigh was the O8 2-8-2, which was long suspected of being much heavier then was quoted to crews.  It is believed that an O8 was snuck over to some scales where it's much greater weight was uncovered.    Great Northern steam locomotives had the weight on drivers stenciled on the cabs of the locomotives......crews would know their pay rate as they entered their locomotive.

Bet another reason Pennsy crews preferred the J1 2-10-4's to the I1 decs, was that the decs rode like a sledge hammer on steel! 

Last edited by mark s
Ed Kelly posted:

Hi All,

What is a 2 wheel engine truck?  What is a 4 wheel engine truck?  The N&W Class A was a 2-6-6-4.  Please explain.

Thank you,

Ed

Hi Ed,

"Engine" truck is another term for pilot truck or lead truck.  So a two wheel engine truck is the first "2" in a 2-6-6-4, while a four wheel engine truck is the "4" in a 4-6-6-4.

Stuart

 

SantaFe158 posted:
ARC posted:

Was there a particular reason why the 1601 and 1604 were chosen to be saved? I've heard that the later units had several improvements and were in better shape.

As I've heard about 1601 (which is located at my place of employment), we were actually supposed to receive a working engine in good shape but it was needed for service at the last minute and 1601 was sent instead.  From what I understand it's a pretty tired engine.

In Eugene Huddleston's The Allegheny Lima's Finest it is written on page 242 that the C&O had reserved H8 1646 as a gift for the Henry Ford Museum.  It had been recently stored and was in excellent condition.  As fate would have it the C&O was experiencing that spike in traffic so on October 28, 1955 the 1646, having met ICC specifications for boiler extension,  was put back to work.  Once the museum was ready 1646 was no longer available and 1601 was cosmetically restored and donated in its place. 

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