My father-in-law was interviewed at the farm and at competitions by print & TV media many many times over 30 years in his second career as a champion vegetable grower. They never got the facts right. My father-in-law may as well just be a wizard the way most of the stories turned out.

As Rich Melvin is always prone to state; "Journalism is DEAD!". 

Does anyone really think the current crop of "journalists," having been born in 1997 or thereabouts, really have any understanding of the difference between a steam locomotive and a diesel, let alone what a Shay is?

I was at our tourist railroad, where we had an 0-4-0T steam locomotive, actually emitting steam, on a track right next to a GE center cab diesel. A 30-something-year-old guest walked up to me and in all honesty asked, "So, which one is the steam engine?"

There is or recently was, another Shay and a caboose displayed under a canopy just east of Lima, in a small town, maybe Alger, that l blundered on.  And south of Lima, maybe off Ohio 65, there are what looks like the remains of an amusement park, with several delapidated cabooses sitting in it.

Why should news readers know anything about the details of steam locomotives? Unfortunately railroads are now just part of the plumbing of our economy and do not command the interest of the bulk of our citizens.  AND 89% of our citizenry does not know much of anything.

smd4 posted:

Does anyone really think the current crop of "journalists," having been born in 1997 or thereabouts, really have any understanding of the difference between a steam locomotive and a diesel, let alone what a Shay is?

I was at our tourist railroad, where we had an 0-4-0T steam locomotive, actually emitting steam, on a track right next to a GE center cab diesel. A 30-something-year-old guest walked up to me and in all honesty asked, "So, which one is the steam engine?"

Nothing surprises me with the general public, under 50 years old, anymore. During the last "Railfair" in 1999, at the California State Railroad Museum, in Sacramento, we had quite a large number of "30-something-year-olds" ask, "How did you get it here?", referring to #4449. In the majority of cases, they would not believe that she operated under her own power, pulling a train, all the way from Portland, Oregon! More than once I had to reiterate that neither UPS nor Fedex would handle the 432 ton locomotive!

While journalists should most definitely be held to a higher standard; for the rest of us I reckon we’re interested only in what interests us.  I haven’t a clue (and could care less) with regard to collecting stamps or building ship models and could easily misuse terminology or say something that would cause a stamp collector or model ship builder to roll their eyes and think “what an idiot”.  

I have concluded that with the exception of my one brother in law, who seems to be intensely interested in everything, most of us ”specialize” when it comes to hobbies or other recreational pursuits.  We simply can’t “know it all”.

Curt

The younger generations were not around for the steam era (or for railroading in general when it was at its useful times)...so...maybe they don't know much about them...so what.  Lots of things are generational...that's life!  The younger generations know and do a lot of things us "older" generations don't know about or how to do it.  Different people have different tastes, interests and priorities in life...and that is good.  I've raised 3 "millennials."  They are all smart and hard working...and...they all use cursive writing.  They are not interested in railroads...hence...they are not going to know that much about them.  So what! 

boin106 posted:

The younger generations were not around for the steam era (or for railroading in general when it was at its useful times)...so...maybe they don't know much about them...so what. 

I wasn't around 100 years ago. If I saw a Sopwith Camel and a 747 next to each other, I wouldn't need to ask the pilot which one was the bi-plane.

What do you mean by 'younger generations'? I am considered a baby boomer, and I've never seem a steam engine in operation outside of a tourist railroad or museum.

My generation and the generation before us unfortunately has little appreciation for history. You guys can do your best to educate but it will often fall on deaf ears. Many are more concerned with social media.

C W Burfle posted:

What do you mean by 'younger generations'?

My opinion is, anyone under 40 years old.

I am considered a baby boomer,

So, you were born AFTER WWII?

and I've never seem a steam engine in operation outside of a tourist railroad or museum.

I would suppose that depended on where you were born & raised, as steam locomotives were still in use on many Class 1 railroads, into the mid to late 1950s.

smd4 posted:

Does anyone really think the current crop of "journalists," having been born in 1997 or thereabouts, really have any understanding of the difference between a steam locomotive and a diesel, let alone what a Shay is?

Probably not, but that's what RESEARCH is for! Competent journalists are supposed to LEARN about whatever it is they are reporting on.

Today's "journalists" (I use the term VERY loosely) don't bother to learn about what they are reporting on. They just regurgitate what they find in their Google search on the internet, where we know that everything is true and totally accurate. 

Journalism is dead.

OGR Webmaster posted:

smd4 posted:

Does anyone really think the current crop of "journalists," having been born in 1997 or thereabouts, really have any understanding of the difference between a steam locomotive and a diesel, let alone what a Shay is?

Probably not, but that's what RESEARCH is for! Competent journalists are supposed to LEARN about whatever it is they are reporting on.

Today's "journalists" (I use the term VERY loosely) don't bother to learn about what they are reporting on. They just regurgitate what they find in their Google search on the internet, where we know that everything is true and totally accurate. 

Journalism is dead.

My goodness, I couldn't agree more! It's worse with those who report online.  It's as if they never learned proper grammar - "ton" does not mean "a lot" as in "number of" and there is no such word as "irregardless"; it's "regardless".  End rant.

Seriously though, there are GOOD journalists out there and it must be tough for them seeing what qualifies as reporting today. A tip of my proverbial cap to them.

-Greg

there is no such word as "irregardless"; it's "regardless"

I don't use it, but here is what Merriam-Webster has to say about  "irregardless":

 Irregardless was popularized in dialectal American speech in the early 20th century. Its increasingly widespread spoken use called it to the attention of usage commentators as early as 1927. The most frequently repeated remark about it is that "there is no such word." There is such a word, however. It is still used primarily in speech, although it can be found from time to time in edited prose. Its reputation has not risen over the years, and it is still a long way from general acceptance. Use regardless instead.

Journalism is out there, there are people doing the leg work and actually getting to the bottom of things, there are people breaking real stories that have been fact checked and the like, despite what some like to claim. However,expecting that out of local tv news or local "news sheets" or worse the online world is gonna be mightily disappointing. TV news in the last 40  years has devolved from something that was inferior to the newspapers but at least had some journalistic ethos, they often did investigative reporting (even the local markets had that), but today it is all pretty much blow dried teeth and fluff (Ron Burgundy, here's to you *lol*). And for something like a fluff piece on a local piece of 'interest', I am surprised they didn't report it as an air show or something. 

As far as people not knowing things, I would bet good money that back in the heyday of steam, outside the rail nuts (wonder what the antediluvian term was for a foamer?), how many people knew the difference between a Hudson or a Bekshire, how many people care what kind of valve gear an engine had, whether an engine was coal or oil fired, they only knew that the train could get them from point a to point b, that they needed a ticket, needed to be at the station at x time, and complained about how lousy the service was (some things never change)........back in the day railroads had a huge role in passenger and freight traffic, but to many people they weren't romantic, they were simply something they rode or shipped stuff on, and didn't care whether the engine was type X, any more than people who buy from Amazon care about how the thing was shipped. 

People who are passionate about something tend to forget other people are not. Gearheads love to talk about things like the merits of a hemi engine, what is the right camber to achieve a certain level of handling, what is the right timing on a 350 small block engine to achieve maximum torgue, aftermarket versus OEM being better, etc.....other people if the car starts, the AC works, the fanny heaters work, are happy and eyes would glaze over at a description of the engine or suspension on the car.  It isn't that people less than 50 don't know anything, it is what they are interested in differs from what someone over 50 is into *shrug*, and the fact that they don't know a steam engine from a diesel just indicates they never really thought about it and to be honest why should they? And does anything change if in reporting a local interest story they say the wrong engine was running the excursion, will people stop going if they think a shay is running the train and a non shay runs it? 

I know exactly what you were talking about Tom. I was on staff that day, and there were a ton of people who actually thought the shay was coming, even though the excursion train was coming 60 miles and a shay's top speed is about 10 miles per hour. I thought the whole shay thing was pretty amusing. I hope you enjoyed the event though.

OGR Webmaster posted:

smd4 posted:

Does anyone really think the current crop of "journalists," having been born in 1997 or thereabouts, really have any understanding of the difference between a steam locomotive and a diesel, let alone what a Shay is?

Probably not, but that's what RESEARCH is for! Competent journalists are supposed to LEARN about whatever it is they are reporting on.

Today's "journalists" (I use the term VERY loosely) don't bother to learn about what they are reporting on. They just regurgitate what they find in their Google search on the internet, where we know that everything is true and totally accurate. 

Journalism is dead.

I don't often agree with the OGR Webmaster, but when I do .............

.............. I'm appreciative of the comment.

"In the majority of cases, they would not believe that she operated under her own power, pulling a train, all the way from Portland, Oregon! More than once I had to reiterate that neither UPS nor Fedex would handle the 432 ton locomotive!"

The last sentence is PRICELESS!  Best comment I've read on OGR in MONTHS!  Lost my coffee up my nose on that one.

I would be considered one of the 'younger generations', and I am fairly certain I can tell a difference between a Steam Engine and a Diesel, may be partially due to me being involved in the Model Railroading Hobby. Also I was just curious to what would come up with a google search for a shay, and the first thing that popped up was  the definition of the word shay and some Canadian actress, but if I put in Shay Locomotive, it comes up with the geared steam engine as the first result. So it really comes down to knowing how to search for things on google.

I will be the first to admit I am unable to tell the difference between a Hudson or a Berkshire Engine or some of the other engine types like some people, who can tell just glancing at them, and knowing the details about them.

I saw a recent interview of Ed regarding the 4014 and its proposed appearance at the Transcon Railroad 150th celebration next year. She was an enthusiastic, although very young, local TV interviewer, and Ed did a good summary of the locomotive and the event. In her wrapup, still exuding the enthusiasm of a cheerleader, she referred to 4014 as a "steamroller". I had to chuckle, and then, "sigh".

boin106 posted:

…...  I've raised 3 "millennials."  They are all smart and hard working...

So have I.

GenesisFan99 posted:

….. You guys can do your best to educate but it will often fall on deaf ears. Many are more concerned with social media.

Condescension and narcissism "educates" no one. Potentially interested people are turned off by it, and walk away shaking their heads and laughing.

  bigkid posted:

Journalism is out there, there are people doing the leg work and actually getting to the bottom of things, there are people breaking real stories that have been fact checked and the like, despite what some like to claim.  

And, thank goodness for that. 

Jay Jay's description of the breathless young reporter reminded me of an incident about 20 years ago. Milwaukee 261 was running Milwaukee to Chicago and some savvy publicist invited Chicago's all news radio station (WBBM 780) to send a reporter to ride the cab. They sent serious, seasoned Bernie Tafoya, who was truly breathless and excited, with the 261 roaring in the background, as he shouted into the michrophone, "This is really something, if you get a chance, you have got to come out and see Milwaukee 261 !!"      That was some real reporting !!

EBT Jim posted:

GenesisFan99 posted:

….. You guys can do your best to educate but it will often fall on deaf ears. Many are more concerned with social media.

Condescension and narcissism "educates" no one. Potentially interested people are turned off by it, and walk away shaking their heads and laughing.

 

That's because they already know EVERYTHING!

Shay it ain’t so!

Mentioned to my older neighbors who know everything that my wife got a hybrid. “Oh, which one?  Prius or Tesla?”

bigkid posted:

Journalism is out there, there are people doing the leg work and actually getting to the bottom of things, there are people breaking real stories that have been fact checked and the like, despite what some like to claim. However,expecting that out of local tv news or local "news sheets" or worse the online world is gonna be mightily disappointing. TV news in the last 40  years has devolved from something that was inferior to the newspapers but at least had some journalistic ethos, they often did investigative reporting (even the local markets had that), but today it is all pretty much blow dried teeth and fluff (Ron Burgundy, here's to you *lol*). And for something like a fluff piece on a local piece of 'interest', I am surprised they didn't report it as an air show or something.

Well put. I have several friends who either are or have been journalists, and they are all good writers, do a lot of research, and have integrity. And, even if you disagree with the political leanings of its editorial staff, there is no denying that articles in the New Yorker are extensively and intensively researched, rigorously fact-checked, and thoroughly edited.

Have journalistic standards fallen? In general, yes, but there are still holdouts, and there are still good journalists and editors hard at work.

Farmer Bill,

I love it "Shay it ain't so"  Great comment!   

Born in the very late 40's I know what a Shay Engine is, and I know my Great Grandfather operated one, however most people from the 60's on up, have no idea what a Shay Engine is or what it was used for.

PCRR/Dave

Clark's historical picture of my Great Grandfather bringing the logs off the Pa Mountains, in Potter County, Pa.  Just outside of Galeton.

I imagine there's still model railroaders out there that can't tell the difference between a FA and an F7, or think the difference between a GP7 and a GP9 is the dynamic brake blister.

I also lost count of the number of times some folks get upset on these very forums when they're informed of the correct terminology used in railroading.

Rusty

Here is the press release that the local news media was furnished: 

 "Lima, Ohio's, Lincoln Park Railroad Exhibit will be open to the public on Saturday, May 19, from 12 noon to 5 pm. The exhibit includes the last steam locomotive built by the Lima Locomotive Works in 1949, Nickel Plate Road Berkshire type steam locomotive 779; NKP wooden caboose 1091, and NKP Official Car No. 5 built in 1882. This equipment is original, complete and authentic thanks to the foresight of the late John H. Keller, Sr. of Lima. Also open will be the former DT&I Uniopolis depot in the park. Volunteers will staff all of the equipment to answer your questions. Also arriving on the former DT&I railroad tracks next to Lincoln Park that day will be a sold-out diesel powered railroad excursion train from Springfield, Ohio.

This will probably be the only open house for the Lincoln Park Railroad Exhibit in 2018. There is no admission charge to the public but donations are welcomed to the John H. Keller Fund to maintain the equipment.

People attending the Open House will need to park to the east of Lincoln Park, due to the beginning of construction on the long-awaited Elm Street railroad underpass."

In speaking to reporters on Friday, nowhere did I make any mention about Shay locomotives, at all.  The young reporterette- recently moved from Minnesota-  asked many questions and toured the equipment.  Surely she would get the publicity right.  Sometime after the on-site "stand-up" interview  I read where a Shay would be pulling the excursion train.  Multiple people asked where the Shay was when the excursion train arrived on Saturday.    Let's see, at 10 mph, it would take about six hours for a Shay to travel from Springfield to Lima...........

Rich Melvin is right, Journalism is Dead.

Hot Water posted:

Nothing surprises me with the general public, under 50 years old, anymore. During the last "Railfair" in 1999, at the California State Railroad Museum, in Sacramento, we had quite a large number of "30-something-year-olds" ask, "How did you get it here?", referring to #4449. In the majority of cases, they would not believe that she operated under her own power, pulling a train, all the way from Portland, Oregon! More than once I had to reiterate that neither UPS nor Fedex would handle the 432 ton locomotive!

Not to be argumentative Jack, but I'm under 50 and know a thing or two about trains having dozens of Sunset projects under my belt now over the last 10 years.  Sure, I need your help on occasion when it comes to some details (and THANK YOU for that!), but it's always hard to generalize.   

I was at a rail festival a few years back running steam on a modular layout for the public and a three year (yes 3), was telling me what the prototype was for each of the locomotives on the layout.  "That's a Challenger, do you have a Big Boy?"  "I like that Northern."  I finally just started pointing at every locomotive and he got them all right. 

When it comes to my other hobbies or my job age doesn't matter.  As an architect nearly everyone thinks they are one.  The public and many licensed architects don't have a clue on how to practice in this profession old or young.  I also get where you are coming from because there are sometimes just dumb questions.  However, I also see a brilliance and deep thought in some younger people I mentor while seeing a lot of density in some people older than me.  

As to the media, I still can't get over the whole "Train hits car".  When will they get it right and state "Car hits Train"?  I won't begin to go into how many times I've been misquoted in the media.  

Farmer_Bill posted:

Shay it ain’t so!

 

Mentioned to my older neighbors who know everything that my wife got a hybrid. “Oh, which one?  Prius or Tesla?”

 

 

Let me guess...a "Burpee"? 

I'm 71 and I know many people under 50 who know more about trains than I do. I have been into trains for 60 plus years and have read many books on the history of railroading. 

But I don't expect anybody who is not in the hobby or real rr to know much about it. 

My niece who is truly a rocket scientist and works for Nasa and has worked with Elon Musk does not expect me to know much about rockets or space. But I have listened and learned when she talks about it. 

So let's not be too harsh on people who are not as well versed as you may be on subjects that you interested in. 

Dave

   This issue comes up from time to time and it always takes a familiar path.  I'm with Rusty Traque and Big Kid.  The comments concerning the general worthlessness of the younger generation as compared to "our" stellar patterns of behavior when we were young is an old saw that goes back a long time - "the younger generation of youth is going to the dogs" - variously attributed to Socrates, Plato quoting Socrates, translation of graffiti found on the tombs in Egypt dating from 800 B.C., etc. 

  After all, no one in our generation ever did anything ridiculous like wear clothes that looked like they'd been blown out of a cannon and pried out of a brick wall or attended events like Woodstock or screamed themselves hoarse at a live Elvis Presley concert (how can one forget the shock and horror expressed in the media and at home the day after his appearance on the Ed Sullivan show). He was a bit before my time but we caught h... for Pink Floyd, The Doors, etc. Am I the only one who heard grownups grumbling about how all of us were going to turn out because we listened and danced to songs like this?   Offhand I suspect a number of posters to this thread might have lead a sober existence during their youth but the fact remains that these things and others like them were done by numerous members of our generation and other, equally silly things, were done by numerous members of the generation preceding ours and so on ad infinitum. 

  As for knowing the difference between something from 100 years ago and today - I would say that is something that generally falls into the realm of knowledge based on personal interest and not general knowledge.  For example, consider paper money and forget 100 years ago, just go back 65 years.  I've been in more than one teller line when someone insisted the teller was giving them counterfeit currency because "All U.S. money has 'In God we Trust' printed on the back."  Another favorite: the money is counterfeit because "There's no such thing as a $2 bill." ...and then there was the uproar in the teller line when some old guy tried to deposit a $500 bill.  Fortunately for all concerned (me especially) I was there and managed to a) convince everyone it was real and not call the cops. b) go to the head of the line and withdraw five $100 bills. c) trade the five $100 bills for the one $500 dollar bill.

david1 posted:

I'm 71 and I know many people under 50 who know more about trains than I do. I have been into trains for 60 plus years and have read many books on the history of railroading. 

But I don't expect anybody who is not in the hobby or real rr to know much about it. 

My niece who is truly a rocket scientist and works for Nasa and has worked with Elon Musk does not expect me to know much about rockets or space. But I have listened and learned when she talks about it. 

So let's not be too harsh on people who are not as well versed as you may be on subjects that you interested in. 

Dave

Well stated Dave.  My younger brother is in aerospace and I haven't a clue about what he does.  Partially because it's way beyond my understanding and partially because his security clearance prevents him from talking about it. 

I agree with MATT regarding the journalistic excellence of the New Yorker, to which we have been a subscriber for over four-decades. The prose and poetry are also wisely selected and the cartoons and covers are legendary. I am a retired English professor and instructor having taught freshman college courses for three-years and also twenty-one years in the public schools of Nashville, TN. My first forum handle was Beowulf for obvious reasons!

Robert S. Butler posted:

 for Pink Floyd, The Doors, etc. Am I the only one who heard grownups grumbling about how all of us were going to turn out because we listened and danced to songs like this?

Pink Floyd is timeless.  I grew up listening to them and my kids do (at least the 19 and 22 year old ones).  At the same time my Grandfather, who would be 98 if he was still alive today listened to the 8 track version of The Wall when I was a kid. 

The Wall is a great rock classic! The guitar work in Comfortably Numb is amazing! The Dark Side of the Moon is also a classic! I have used The Wall as a teaching tool in my high school senior English classes with much success. BTW, I am 75!

The trouble is people "dont know what they dont know" its not an age thing and I hate it when the older generation look down on them - do they not remember when their older generation looked down on them as well......

Some people are also just ignorant of the facts...any facts and prefer the "googled " answer however daft. Sounds like that reporter was one of these.

MIKE

PS - its the same over here!

The biggest problem I see is that people just don't tend to be curious enough.  I want to know EVERYTHING, and I ask questions, do research and read books to LEARN.  Just because it went out of use before you were born is not an excuse to not know SOMETHING about it. Too many people just want tostare at Faceplant all day or watch another inane TV show about some pointless topic.   My Brother-in-Law works as a clean up engineer in microchip production.  That is a subject that I could not POSSIBLY know less about, but he has gotten me some behind the scenes tours to show me what he does, and he told me I asked better questions than many of the people that WORK there.  The brain is the world's most powerful tool, and shouldn't just go to waste.  I pride myself that when I meet someone and they tell me what they do or where they are from, 99% of the time I can come up with a relevant comment or question.   I once scored brownie points at a dinner party at my wife's bosses house because I made a comment about a book on the coffee table about the Mexican artist Diego Rivera.  I no NOTHING about art, but I had read the history of the Ford Motor Company and knew that Edsel Ford had commissioned Rivera in the 1930's to do frescoes on the walls of the Detroit Institute of Art, and a huge controversy ensued.  I also knew that he was a devout Marxist and that he was married to the artist Frieda Kahlo. A little unrelated knowledge can go a LONG way.  As NKP779 pointed out above, the reporter was GIVEN all of the pertinent information.  All that was required was a couple minutes of time and a couple semi-intelligent questions to be 100% factual AND interesting enough to hold the audience.   Honestly, I don't know that much about steam locomotives, but EVERY time I am in the presence of one, I am studying the machinery, tracing pipes and examining the valve gear to learn more.  If I get in the cab, I'm asking questions until I wear on my welcome.  In my opinion, you cannot POSSIBLY know too much, no matter what the topic.