I suppose parts would be non existent? Interested in a RK 1108 possibly. If anyone has one at affordable price. But I'm concerned it would a boat anchor. I have ZERO MTH inventory or repair experience. Thanks
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Absolutely not foolish if the price is right and it’s in good shape! I’d check the new MTH parts website to see what’s available. But this engine has been made by MTH multiple times so some parts should be available. It’s older so if the electronics go bad you can have a tech install PS3 or something newer
If it’s something you like then certainly buy it. MTH has a new parts department now so parts hopefully will not be an issue. That is of course, if the parts are available. The hobby will never be as it was in post war days where parts were always readily available. Don’t let that stop you. There are tens of thousands of newer engines out there that are flawless. Enjoy.
Cool. I'm interested in the old railking line with only whistle. As few electronics as possible. I'm actually a postwar only guy, but there are no postwar challengers obviously so I figured this would be as close as one can get. I like simple.
FWIW, right now no electronic boards are available for MTH, not sure when that situation will change.
So you have zero MTH inventory. Does that mean you do not have DCS? So you will run this Challenger in conventional mode?
If that is correct, then sure, go ahead and get it, run it and have fun. If the MTH PS board fails just install some other conventional system board or upgrade to some other Command and Control system.
Have Fun!
Ron
Yep. Conventional only. I have no other systems. PS? Is that proto sound? Is that what the old basic MTH whistle is called? Forgive my ignorance. My only knowledge is in postwar.
@MattR posted:Yep. Conventional only. I have no other systems. PS? Is that proto sound? Is that what the old basic MTH whistle is called? Forgive my ignorance. My only knowledge is in postwar.
There are three versions.
ProtoSound (PS), ProtoSound 2 (PS2) and ProtoSound 3 (PS3)
All three run in conventional mode. Only PS2 and PS3 run in MTH's Digital Command System (DCS). Some believe DCS could be obsolete. Others think it will be OK and live on. No matter what you decide, there are plenty of options (MTH and Others) to get your engine running again should the existing board die and no other replacements of that board type are available.
Ron
You always have the option with the engine if you run in conventional mode if the original boards fail. Dallee for example makes an electronic E unit that can control forward/reverse that you can use and I think they offer sound /whistle, others do as well.
I wouldn't. But that's me. Think of the options then decide. Remember that yes boards can be replaced. But what if you need a side rod, trailing truck, a gear?
You've all gave me some confidence in it. I think I'll see what i can get a good used one for. Thanks again
What a question! Unlike the post war Lionel's, most manufacturers now include some sort of electronics to add to the operating pleasure. Except for trains, how many of us expect anything electronic to last more than 5 years? Part of it is obsolescence, other part is board failure. Its a false expectation that todays engines will last anywhere near that of the simple engines of the past.
Buy used or new for what you like and enjoy running. Expect to have to do an electronics repair at some point and move on. But, be aware that the detail of the 2000 era engines are quite different from today's. Hard to believe those are already twenty years old! From what I can tell the only exceptions are the old brass engines which were typically highly detailed.
Side Note: I have bought nearly 30 used MTH engines (RK and Premier). None have had any problems (one did because I did not replace a bad battery prior to applying voltage) and all run fine at this point. As it turns out only one is a PS1, and the rest is spread between PS2 (both versions) and PS3. All PS2 have been converted to BCR. All of these run fine with conventional control (transformer). To me its not worth pushing the button sequences to get certain sound effects. However using DCS makes that much easier if that is what you like. DCS for me is great for lash-ups and the subway trains. Other than that running conventional is fine. Another Note: my layout is always going up or down grade, DCS maintains speed in both directions another nice feature.
Happy Railroading!
@Jim 1939 posted:I wouldn't. But that's me. Think of the options then decide. Remember that yes boards can be replaced. But what if you need a side rod, trailing truck, a gear?
For hardware he would just go to this website.
MTH Electric Trains (mthpartsandsales.com)
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I'd go for it. I'm glad I bought a new one a couple years ago for $575. The latest run of challengers from MTH and Lionel will run you you about $800 and $1000 respectively. Given that MTH has not made any announcements to do another run of challengers I'd get one while you can before price on both go up or the cheaper NOS MTH units becomes unavailable.
@MattR posted:I suppose parts would be non existent? Interested in a RK 1108 possibly. If anyone has one at affordable price. But I'm concerned it would a boat anchor. I have ZERO MTH inventory or repair experience. Thanks
Certain folks here like to beat an anti-MTH drum. My .02: the current situation with MTH certainly has some uncertainty. However, if you buy a new locomotive from an MTH dealer and it is dead, there are two paths: either the MTH dealer can fix it for you (many dealers who do repairs, including our local dealer, has boards) or, if the dealer cannot fix it for you, you can return it for a refund, particularly if you paid with credit card. Merchant agreements for the major cards require refunds for defective merchandise, and the bank will take your side under these circumstances, barring something unusual such as someone having poor credit.
If you buy what the late great Marty F. would refer to as a fleabay queen, and it is bought used or otherwise is dead, that risk has always been the same to you in terms of your cost exposure. If you cannot get resolution with the vendor, send it to George Galyo (GGG) and it is very unlikely that he cannot fix it or convert to TMCC. The only issue there is cost, so price that risk into the equation when buying any Lionel or MTH command loco used or new and outside of the authorized dealer network.
I'm definitely looking for a used unit. Not wanting to spend New prices. Instead of
fleabay I'll check here where I think people are a but more conscientious. Thanks again
There are several Challengers on the Trainz.Com (Forum Sponsor) website. I have always thought they were fairly priced based on condition. MTH Premier, Lionel, and Williams... I did not see RailKing. Read the description carefully. They describe imperfections, or things that are broken or inoperable very well.
Have Fun!
Ron
I'm in zero rush. The right thing will come along. Since I'm seasonally employed I gotta keep an eye on the toadskins this time of year. Just starting to do some research and get opinions from those more experienced.
There are plenty of spare parts to fix electronics of the MTH DCRU and PS-1 type. Most tech have a stock pile from doing conversions. The early 1108 could also be just basic DCRU and whistle board. You easily could convert to any dc electronic reverse unit, or upgrade to TMCC, or PS-3. G
To be honest there is a very good chance you will not have a mechanical problem with the locomotive (or any MTH locomotive) so I wouldn't worry about replacement mechanical parts. Most of the bugaboo people are worried about is electronics in modern stuff. To be honest it's not a huge deal, especially for conventional operators. Reverse unit or PS1/PS2/PS3 dies and you're a conventional operator? Install a Dallee reverse unit and be on your way.
Keep in mind that anything pre-PS2 should be a LOT cheaper than a comparable PS2/PS3 engine. I've seen too many PS engines where the seller still wants MSRP or close - they're either uninformed or trolling for suckers. If you get a PS engine, be sure to install a BCR before powering it up.
BTW, I run a lot of conventional and PS engines - IMO, PS is a bargain if bought wisely.
If you have an interest, I wouldn't hesitate to purchase an MTH product. As others have mentioned there were plenty made which means parts can be found and if the electronics go south, you have lots of options on how to bring the locomotive back to running condition.
I would say the same is true with most K-Line, Williams, or Weaver product. If you find a locomotive that is to your liking and it is at a price you are willing to pay, then I would not worry as much about the manufacturer. I was able to pick up a Weaver FA this Saturday at a local auction for $20. I have 5 others, so for that price it can serve as a parts donor.
For the original poster, in case he's not familiar with original Protosound (usually referred to as "PS1"), the recommendation to install a "BCR" refers to a capacitor device made by J&W Electronics that replaces the rechargable 9v battery present in a Protosound board, eliminating the possibility of an electronics failure linked to an aged NiCd battery (it's voltage nosedives while powering the computer's shut-down sequence after track power is removed).
The only operating difference with one installed is letting the unit sit with power on for about 45-60 seconds at the beginning of an operating session, after which it can be run like any other conventional locomotive.
---PCJ
That's a almost 26 year old engine. If it's mechanically and operationally sound (and cheap), it may be worth it, though. It may offers years of service. As Gun Runner John says, however, there are no electronic boards now available, so it's not without risk. Sounds like if you have electronic problems with the engine, it becomes a doorstop, although as someone stated above older electronics boards may be available from some repair sources. Also a conversion to ERR electronics is always possible, but that then gives you Lionel TMCC operation. In that case any investment you make in MTH controls may be wasted.
As a side note, while they will probably be more expensive than this old MTH engine, the older Lionel TMCC LionMaster Challengers look a whole lot better than the MTH version, as pretty much everyone agrees. Depending on your budget, if you can pick up an older TMCC version of the LionMaster Challenger at a decent price, that may be an option for you.
The way I see it, MTH isn't dead; they simply had to reorganize how they operate on account of the fact that no one would buy the entire business and keep it going the way it was, until last year. Even if you're someone who doesn't do repairs, or isn't tech-savvy enough in regards of the electronics, I wouldn't worry too much about it. And while I also agree that less electronics may mean less chances of a breakdown and easier fixes, that doesn't mean the locomotive is automatically a fragile piece of junk just because it has a mother board in it. I have 20-year-old video game consoles that still work fine to this day, even though I didn't take great care of them.
@breezinup posted:That's a almost 26 year old engine. If it's mechanically and operationally sound (and cheap), it may be worth it, though. It may offers years of service. As Gun Runner John says, however, there are no electronic boards now available, so it's not without risk. Sounds like if you have electronic problems with the engine, it becomes a doorstop, although as someone stated above older electronics boards may be available from some repair sources. Also a conversion to ERR electronics is always possible, but that then gives you Lionel TMCC operation. In that case any investment you make in MTH controls may be wasted.
As a side note, while they will probably be more expensive than this old MTH engine, the older Lionel TMCC LionMaster Challengers look a whole lot better than the MTH version, as pretty much everyone agrees. Depending on your budget, if you can pick up an older TMCC version of the LionMaster Challenger at a decent price, that may be an option for you.
Re boards: incorrect. See George’s (GGG) response and others above. Those responses are consistent with my local shop, that can also repair these products. One person here saying it, and others repeating it, does not make it true. I don’t meant to be argumentative but it is simply bad advice for people here to say things and others to repeat it.
I will say it again for emphasis, as it is something I read here from Marty F. and he was obviously a super knowledgeable guy: buying used electronic command style trains can be a risk, but the risk is generally not that they cannot be repaired but rather that the “deal” someone thinks they got should be priced with this risk in mind. So someone buying ps1 or TMCC equipment new or used should get a substantial discount off original list.
All that being said, I have 20 plus year old Lionel TMCC locomotives that still work perfectly. Very few issues - a faulty coupler on an original die cast S-1 that doesn’t see a ton of use and may come back to life and really that is it. No issues on any MTH locomotive either. Only issues I have had is with Lionel stuff purchased I’m the last 10 years - much higher rate of issues than the older Lionel I have and the MTH. That is just my experience, yours may vary.
Good luck to the original poster on his search.
@MattR posted:You've all gave me some confidence in it. I think I'll see what i can get a good used one for. Thanks again
Truth be told, even if there’s zero electronics to be had, a .59 cent bridge rectifier will make any DC can motor locomotive run again ( at least forward) …….there’s no reason on earth to shelf any modern locomotive when it can be at least temporarily repaired with a simple rectifier,……..even a 2000 dollar Big Boy could be temporarily repaired to run until boards become readily available,…..
Pat
Interesting discussion. I have four early Railking steam engines with whistle only that I purchased when PS1 was optional. I preferred not to spend the extra money for protosound, and I liked running engines more quietly. I have a C&O allegheny, UP big boy, SP GS-4, and N&W J. They have turned out to be like the Williams I own -- simple and reliable. These are available, but the prices of these used have gone up.
@Ray Lombardo posted:Re boards: incorrect. See George’s (GGG) response and others above. Those responses are consistent with my local shop, that can also repair these products. One person here saying it, and others repeating it, does not make it true. I don’t meant to be argumentative but it is simply bad advice for people here to say things and others to repeat it.
Right now none of the PS/3 boards are available from MTH parts. Saying it isn't true won't change that fact! That's not to say they will never be available, but right now that's the situation.
@gunrunnerjohn posted:Right now none of the PS/3 boards are available from MTH parts. Saying it isn't true won't change that fact! That's not to say they will never be available, but right now that's the situation.
John
Originally you wrote “no boards are available for MTH.” This is not true, or at the very least, materially incomplete, without additional elaboration because, in fact, other repair stations have existing stock. Moreover, if the goal is to give a fellow hobbyist a sense of his options, stating they are not available without more information gives an impression that there aren’t repair options when, in fact, as I and others above have pointed out, there are repair options staying within the MTH DCS system or with other alternatives. The real issue is the economics of the repair.
Given the following you have here on this forum and on others, I would think you would care about accuracy as it impacts this person’s evaluation of his options and it has potential reputational impact for a respected company, and it’s employees, while they navigate what must be a tricky transition. That is why I offered a different view without initially being disagreeable, but so long as you want to stick to this nonsense then I will respond.
Finally, it bears restating that board availability for repairs is an issue for all these command locomotives, in terms of potential repair costs and options. To take one example, ERR has boards available but at one point do they need to be updated with new components at a cost that makes the upgrade model non-viable from a cost perspective and thus makes that business non-viable? We may be getting there already. I think if someone comes to the forum and asks a question like this, part of the discussion is this context as well. Moreover, a number of years ago you repaired a Lionel HHP locomotive for me that I purchased new, as it had defective boards. Through no fault of yours - you repaired it expertly and at a fair and reasonable cost - this would be Christmas gift for my son took the better part of a year to get repaired due to board unavailability from Lionel. Try explaining that to a disappointed 9 year old. But again it illustrates a risk that permeates the world of these more advanced locomotives and it is certainly a risk with MTH right now, but one that requires some context, unless the goal is to scare people off the product.
That is all I will say about this. Have a happy thanksgiving.
WOW, I stand suitably chastised. 
Well, to be a technical Luddite about things, if there was a nuclear detonation over the US to target electronic devices, the only radios that would be working would be those with no solid state devices in them, including not having germanium or silicon diode AM detector, in other words all tube type. At some point in the future, you will not be able to repair the electronics on our locos anymore. I repair a couple brands of modern communications transceivers, and there are models currently being manufactured and sold where the parts in them are no longer supported. I have to buy from Ebay sources in China and Taiwan to repair a radio just made in 2021. In that world, it is easier to find parts for radios made in the 1940's and 50's than one in the 21st century. That being said, at some point, only loco's with mechanical E units will be rolling down the line...unless a company produces aftermarket microprocessors and ancillary devices for our modern, feature laden locos.
OK enough already guys....this thread is closed.
