American Models Turnouts

D&H 65 posted:

My layout presently has American Models brand flex track and AM turnouts (2 each) installed. I selected this option as it was very much more scale oriented than my previous Gargraves had been and the weathering and conductivity of the track are first-rate. 

My one issue with the whole set-up has been electrical shorts when running certain cars through them. My best operators are my S-Helper Service collection of cars; they track well and never display any electrical issues. My worst offenders seem to be the new six wheel trucks on my Lionel-Flyer new-issue heavyweight passenger cars.

My Postwar Gilbert #283 Pacific traverses the turnouts without issue-either electrically or due to wheel flange size or spacing. My S-Helper S7 & F3 also run well. My Flyonel SD70/U33/ES44/Mikado & FlyerChief Berk also run well through them.

I've finally found that the real "choke" point electrically is the frog itself + the two running rails converging  just in front of the frog. Insulating the inside of the running rails coming into the frog reduces shorting and the attendant sparking it induces. Today, my worst turnout offender finally showed me through wear and tear that the plastic covering in the frog that covers the molded-in conductor has been worn away just enough that the flange actually shorts from there to one of the convergent running rails coming into the frog itself. This happens on my Alton Limited & Blue Comet heavyweight cars almost at will.

My question to all is; has anyone found a turnout of similar dimensions and rail code that can be substituted and still mate with my AM flex-track? I wonder if Tomalco or Micro-Engineering turnouts have been substituted by anyone else  and their opinions and operating experiences doing so. I'd like to find a product I don't have to fiddle with more than usual to keep electrical shorts at-bay. Thanks for any inputs!

Tomalco and Micro-Engineering track is code 100 for scale use.  Flyer and HiRail wheels won't got through the frogs.

Rusty

D&H,

Lionel Flyer rolling stock, especially the heavyweights, are notorious for gauging issues.  You seem to have diagnosed the problem and isolated it to the frog insulation.  Make sure that the wheels aren't so wide that they're traversing both incoming rails at the same time.  That could be why the arcing exposed the rail beneath the plastic frog.  Off hand, I'd try to replace the plastic with either an epoxy or a thin piece of styrene.  File away enough rail and plastic to spread the epoxy over the offending area, let harden and file to the rail head height.  Also check the gauging of the wheels.  For back spacing, I usually use a standard U.S. dime for measurement.  If the offending wheels are arcing due to their width, not much can be done to them, and the turnout itself must be modified. 

It could also be that the guard rail opposite the frog doesn't pull the wheels and axles from the frog sufficiently.  A thin piece of styrene in the gap between it and the stock rail should pull the wheel set farther from the frog.  Don't use a very thick piece, or other items may not traverse the turnout.  Start with a .020" piece.  If I remember correctly (and I usually don't) there is NO guard rail on the straight route.  You may want to make one.

Are you sure the arcing is at the exit of the frog?  The rails leading into the frog from the throat are quite close together and the wide wheels may be arcing there too.  Again, proper gauging will help.  Or filing away a bit of the rail in that location. 

In any case, let us know if any of these suggestions help.  Get a large magnifying glass and a flashlight to see close up where the problem lies.  My turnouts are all hand made, and it took a bit of detective work to make the all operate flawlessly. 

Good Luck!

Jerry: Thanks for the response. I will try your dime-trick to re-check the wheel spacing again.

Actually the shorting occurs just as the "turning out" outer rail is about to enter the frog itself. I see burn spots on the rail just before the plastic area of the frog o the divergent route; I also see burn spots on the bottom of the straight-through portion of the frog itself. I verified that by dropping some gel super glue on it. Once it dried, I ran the cars through and the shorting was reduced a good amount, but still happened on at least one wheel set on one car.

I've also done some judicious grinding on the sides of both convergent rails next to the plastic areas of the frog to hopefully widen that gap somewhat. I've also modified the AM design as to the placement of the guardrails themselves as they really aren't where they should be "as delivered" IMO. See attached photos.

I recommend two things. First check out Carl Tuveson's web site, tuveson.com, he has several tips on how to improve the AM turnouts. Second, all the Lionel AF rolling stock (except engines) have wheels gauged about .1" too narrow. They run well on original Gilbert track but not on the near scale track systems. My Layout has the .138 SHS/MTH track and custom made turnouts from the same rail. The turnouts are made to operate both high rail and scale wheel equipment, consequently accurate gauging is critical. I have had to regauge all the Lionel cars. The dime works just fine. Fixing the wheel gauge should correct your problems.

Jerry & Tom; I just got done adjusting wheel-set spacing on my C&A cars-all were too narrow versus the dime...hard on my fingers trying to widen them! They all go through the straight portion of the turnout now without sparking; the divergent route is another thing as they all spark there now...

I've had small pieces of black electrical tape insulating the inner portion of the running rails as they near the frog area; will likely have to re-install those strips to alleviate that condition. I had just hoped to get away from that "fix" as they wear out after a bit.

After my finger tips return to normal, I'll tackle my Blue Comet cars. Glad now I didn't buy the Southern Crescent set!

You must have more durable fingers than I do! I use a pair of long nose pliers to spread the wheels on the axles.

Too bad about the sparking returning on the running rails.

D&H 65 posted:

Glad now I didn't buy the Southern Crescent set!

Nobody bought the Southern Crescent set, it was cancelled.

Rusty

Good point Rusty! Forgot about that......

Tom: I tried that, but was having issues applying too much force on one side of the axle that was bending the wheels side-ways. With my fingers I could keep the wheel backs somewhat parallel as I pulled them outward.

I wasn't sure if you were having problems at the wide part of the turnout or the narrow portion,  but now it's clear.  Thanks for the photos, it helped a lot. 

I usually use my fingers too, but with a whole set of heavyweight cars, it's hard on them.  So I also try a pair of snap ring pliers close to the axles.  It usually works well.

As far as the diverging route still shorting, try grinding a tad of the inside of the rail a bit and replacing the ground away portion with epoxy.  Alternatively, try adding a bit of plastic to the guard rail on the diverging route to keep the wheels from hitting the straight route's rail.  It sounds like you're very close to getting them to work well. 

Good luck, and keep trying!

Jerry: I didn't have any Plastruct on hand of the correct variety, so I judiciously applied some gel super glue to the insides of the rails near the frog + more on the floor of the frog itself. That fixed the sparking going through the divergent route with my heavyweight passenger cars. I'm going to see how long that lasts until I can get some Plastruct to play with.

D&H 65 posted:

Jerry: I didn't have any Plastruct on hand of the correct variety, so I judiciously applied some gel super glue to the insides of the rails near the frog + more on the floor of the frog itself. That fixed the sparking going through the divergent route with my heavyweight passenger cars. I'm going to see how long that lasts until I can get some Plastruct to play with.

Cool!  When the gel super glue wears out, try some JB Weld or similar epoxy filler.  Sounds like you solved the initial problem, though!  Carl Tuveson has a good solution that grinds away a tad of the rail.  Check out his web site.