jim pastorius posted:Just saw an article on the Wall Street Journal page that says the original plans for the Washington (not DC) rail line called for the elimination of the curve where the wreck occurred but it was too expensive. So they put a $10 sign up and made the speed limit 30MPH.
To be clear, that is a former Northern Pacific line, and "the curve" has always been there, and has always been 30 MPH.
The tracks through that curve are super elevated.
Larry
Dave Zucal posted:Is it possible to just raise the outside rail higher?
If you are referring to Super Elevation, then yes, that could have been done. However, many freight trains also use that line, and such Super Elevation is NOT a real good thing for freight trains.
I know they do, but I mean much higher like a race track. I also wonder if this curve had any bank to it.
No. Besides, Super Elevation on that sharp of a curve, would not have increased the speed capabilities very much anyway. Also, see answer above.
PSAP2010 posted:The tracks through that curve are super elevated.
Please explain how you obtained that information.
Larry
Hot Water posted:PSAP2010 posted:The tracks through that curve are super elevated.
Please explain how you obtained that information.
Larry
By looking at the pictures of the rear locomotive still in the curve taken from the west side.
Larry
The curve:
Pete
PSAP2010 posted:Hot Water posted:PSAP2010 posted:The tracks through that curve are super elevated.
Please explain how you obtained that information.
Larry
By looking at the pictures of the rear locomotive still in the curve taken from the west side.
Larry
OK, the photos taken with a telephoto lens, which tends to magnify perspective.
I thought it was interesting that in this wreck, the several passenger cars at the rear of the train which broke away from the speeding front end, stayed on the ROW and did not go off the ROW. I would imagine they had slowed down enough. It would be interesting to learn their speeds. That is a weird piece of track. The curve goes sharp to the left and down hill. I guess OK for freight but still weird. Can't remember ever seeing a curve like that.
PSAP2010 posted:The tracks through that curve are super elevated.
No, I watched them build that and I have stood on that spot several times during the process. The rails are pretty much level through that curve. Freights have a 10MPH speed limit through there, and super-elevation wouldn't have been such a great idea for that reason.
" Please explain how you obtained that information."
Probably it's common knowledge. The term super elevated means, as you know, that the outer rail is raised with respect to the inner rail. It is common practice on most railways, on most curves, and for most expected train speeds. The "super" part of the expression does not imply anything extraordinary, as used in superglue or superman. It's just part of the expression, meaning "above" or "over." Even on tracks that only expect to see slow-moving freights, the civil engineers figure in some slight super elevation.
Its use is generally not prescribed to allow higher speed travel; its primary purpose is to reduce flange-to-rail contact on curves, which causes premature wear on rails and wheels.
Deuce posted:jim pastorius posted:It is a pity that he suffers but I imagine some of the victim's families suffer too. There is a responsibility in a job like that regardless of enthusiasm etc. Same for all these accidents.
Very true. Regardless of intent, sometimes our mistakes cause serious harm. Our regret does not absolve us of the consequences of our missteps. Or at least, it shouldn't.
That's all true, but we will never know for sure if it was a mistake. I believe that something happened to him physically during that time. He is the poster child for inward facing cameras.
"The rails are pretty much level through that curve."
Yup. That's the exact definition of super elevation. "Pretty much level." The maximum height of the outside rail above the inside rail is generally 3" or less, and that's for the highest expected speeds. That's hard to discern by looking at a ROW with just a casual interest and without a 6' carpenter's level.
Thanks for the explanation Hot Water. I've been to the Horse Shoe Curve a few times in Altoona and noticed the cars lean quite a bit to the inside of the curve. I have often wondered if there was no pushers on the trains going up grade, if when the cars in the center of the train's length would enter into the curve, would they get pulled over onto their side?
p51 posted:PSAP2010 posted:The tracks through that curve are super elevated.
No, I watched them build that and I have stood on that spot several times during the process. The rails are pretty much level through that curve. Freights have a 10MPH speed limit through there, and super-elevation wouldn't have been such a great idea for that reason.
I beg to differ with you, Lee. In this photo the locomotive is leaning to the inside of the curve. I can't imagine that they would not super elevate the tracks through those curves to some degree when they upgraded them.
Larry
Hi Larry, not to stick up for anyone, but have you thought that maybe the cars still connected to the engine that are off the track over the bank might be pulling that way! I have to agree with Lee as I also live here in the area and have been by there more time then I want!
PSAP2010 posted:p51 posted:PSAP2010 posted:The tracks through that curve are super elevated.
No, I watched them build that and I have stood on that spot several times during the process. The rails are pretty much level through that curve. Freights have a 10MPH speed limit through there, and super-elevation wouldn't have been such a great idea for that reason.
I beg to differ with you, Lee. In this photo the locomotive is leaning to the inside of the curve. I can't imagine that they would not super elevate the tracks through those curves to some degree when they upgraded them.
Larry
Larry,
Disagree all you want. I've stood right where that P42 is sitting in your photo, before the loss happened, on a few occasions. I only said "pretty much" in regard to level as I can't say if the outer rail might be a fraction of an inch higher than the inside one.
You can't trust a photo to judge elevation of angle. I could take photos of the curves on my own layout and several curves are perfectly flat (though two do have super-elevation). But you could think there's pronounced super-elevation if I took the shots at an angle.
In the news, it doesn’t look like a witch hunt against the engineer will be all that easy: http://www.cnn.com/2017/12/22/...ent-probe/index.html doesn’t look like a criminal negligence issue could be made if this is accurate.
The engineer is not know as a fast runner, nor into drugs. They've ruled out distractions and it sounds like he was aware of the speed and looking to do something about it before the derailment.
I’m sure the NTSB is looking into if there was a mechanical condition, which I wouldn't totally rule out a this point.
Juan Browne, of the Blancolirio Channel at YouTube, has done a good job covering this story. I always appreciate his reporting.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bv8PEG0hcbQ
-- LaramieJoe
I've been thinking about this: Why, at that speed, did the lead engine jump the track, and not fall over on its side like our toy trains do when we go too fast through a curve? Is it because real flanges are only about an inch high, compared to toy train flanges, which in scale are probably closer to six or eight inches?
I found the part in the video re: PTC very interesting.... It seems the engineman almost gets a map of the track and speed restrictions ahead on screen and if he "goofs" for lack of a better word PTC takes over.
Would an inexperienced engineman who's always worked in PTC territory be completely lost in this territory ?
I find it disturbing because the engineman I worked with could go over the road blind folded and took pride in running a engine without PTC. Yep those days are over I guess.
About that curve.... It looks like a model railroaded stuck a piece of straight track partially 1/2 way around. Not that it would make any difference now.
BTW thanks for posting the video....
The locomotive pulling the train was a brand spanking new Siemens Charger locomotive of which 8 were bought by WSDOT for $58 million. This was the locomotive's inaugural run in revenue service. The new locomotives are equipped with PCT. Of course the loss of a locomotive and cars pales in comparison to the loss in life.
Here is an example of the locomotive on one of its better days.
And from the wreck.
WBC posted:This was the locomotive's inaugural run in revenue service.
I really doubt that, as the Chargers were being used on Cascade trains for at least a couple of weeks before this. I saw one at Tenino a while before this accident occurred, probably two weeks beforehand.
p51 posted:PSAP2010 posted:p51 posted:PSAP2010 posted:The tracks through that curve are super elevated.
No, I watched them build that and I have stood on that spot several times during the process. The rails are pretty much level through that curve. Freights have a 10MPH speed limit through there, and super-elevation wouldn't have been such a great idea for that reason.
I beg to differ with you, Lee. In this photo the locomotive is leaning to the inside of the curve. I can't imagine that they would not super elevate the tracks through those curves to some degree when they upgraded them.
In the news, it doesn’t look like a witch hunt against the engineer will be all that easy: http://www.cnn.com/2017/12/22/...ent-probe/index.html doesn’t look like a criminal negligence issue could be made if this is accurate.
The article says that the reason for the speed is not clear. If there was no mechanical failure, then why was he going so fast. I don't think it is a witch hunt at all. That's exactly what criminal negligence looks like.
Again, the NTSB professionals will have to sort this out. Beyond an assessment of ALL the factual data, all else is speculation. Hopefully, the inward facing cab cams are not too damaged and will yield some evidence.
Tinplate Art posted:Again, the NTSB professionals will have to sort this out. Beyond an assessment of ALL the factual data, all else is speculation. Hopefully, the inward facing cab cams are not too damaged and will yield some evidence.
For what it's worth, NTSB has already released a statement pertaining to the first review of the inward facing camera. I do not know how to link that "release" here, but it should be on the NTSB site.
If you look at the path the lead engine, the Charger, took going down the hill it looks like it left the rails early in to the curve.
Gregg posted:I found the part in the video re: PTC very interesting.... It seems the engineman almost gets a map of the track and speed restrictions ahead on screen and if he "goofs" for lack of a better word PTC takes over. Would an inexperienced engineman who's always worked in PTC territory be completely lost in this territory ? BTW thanks for posting the video....
@Gregg - you are most welcome! Juan Browne, who reported the story (the date in his video was wrong, obviously) is also a 777 pilot for American and flies his own aircraft. I love his aviation videos because they speak to what you just asked; namely, would an inexperienced engineer who's always worked with PTC be completely lost in other areas? Juan would tell you (I think) that yes, he would be and that he would have to double his efforts at watching and talking; or, as the pilots say, communicate, navigate and aviate.
In the immediate case, it appears that the engine man did all of those things. In his spoken words, we can tell with some degree of assurance, that he wasn't inebriated. The data recorded will tell us a lot.
-- Dr Joe
smd4 posted:I've been thinking about this: Why, at that speed, did the lead engine jump the track, and not fall over on its side like our toy trains do when we go too fast through a curve? Is it because real flanges are only about an inch high, compared to toy train flanges, which in scale are probably closer to six or eight inches?
Great question @smd4 ... I often wonder the same thing. I suspect the difference lay in differential calculus somewhere, especially when the weight of these real-life engines is factored in.
Kelly Anderson posted:GVDobler posted:I would at least hope the moron Bostian would never be allowed to operate a train again.
A co-worker of mine knows Bostian personally. He was a railfan, very conscientious about his work and very enthusiastic about railroading in general. He reports that Bostian is personally destroyed by that wreck. It's doubtful that he could even bring himself to watch a train go by, much less ever get into the cab.
Why isn't anyone looking at the Elephant in the room....HACKING.
It was a theory with the Michael Hastings death. And then the auto manufacturers, media and government shot down the possibility.
And then a Jeep got HACKED.
Look up SCADA hacking as well. It's been done to water treatment plants and some people claim that it is what furthered the demise of Fukushima.
Easier to blame that "wild and crazy engineer" though....I guess any homeless bum living under a bridge can get a job as a Train Engineer is what we're supposed to fall for.
That straight then curve makes me cringe, I remember watching my toy trains wobble when hitting something like that in my track work.
Deuce posted:jim pastorius posted:It is a pity that he suffers but I imagine some of the victim's families suffer too. There is a responsibility in a job like that regardless of enthusiasm etc. Same for all these accidents.
Very true. Regardless of intent, sometimes our mistakes cause serious harm. Our regret does not absolve us of the consequences of our missteps. Or at least, it shouldn't.
Regret is not the same as guilt.
To my knowledge, Mr. Bostian was not found to have been distracted by a cell phone or been under the influence of drugs/alcohol. He will almost certainly never drive a locomotive again, and I would hazard to guess, will have a difficult time finding employment for the remainder of his life. He will have to live with the burden of having caused the death of eight people for the remainder of his life. That is a heavy price to pay. For some, it is living hell. To call Mr. Bostian a moron or to otherwise disparage him is unkind, unthoughtful, uncompassionate, and for those who profess to be Christian, un-Christian.
Matt_GNo27 posted:Deuce posted:jim pastorius posted:It is a pity that he suffers but I imagine some of the victim's families suffer too. There is a responsibility in a job like that regardless of enthusiasm etc. Same for all these accidents.
Very true. Regardless of intent, sometimes our mistakes cause serious harm. Our regret does not absolve us of the consequences of our missteps. Or at least, it shouldn't.
Regret is not the same as guilt.
To my knowledge, Mr. Bostian was not found to have been distracted by a cell phone or been under the influence of drugs/alcohol. He will almost certainly never drive a locomotive again, and I would hazard to guess, will have a difficult time finding employment for the remainder of his life. He will have to live with the burden of having caused the death of eight people for the remainder of his life. That is a heavy price to pay. For some, it is living hell. To call Mr. Bostian a moron or to otherwise disparage him is unkind, unthoughtful, uncompassionate, and for those who profess to be Christian, un-Christian.
Very Well Said,
Thank You,
Doug
This was all discussed and argued before. No need to do it again. I noticed that rack before the bridge with a short straight piece there. Was that originally like that ?? If it was and is "Oh boy" !!
jim pastorius posted:This was all discussed and argued before. No need to do it again. I noticed that rack before the bridge with a short straight piece there. Was that originally like that ??
No.
If it was and is "Oh boy" !!
There is a more recent photo showing workers there at the track, the engine and cars are removed and there is a short straight piece at the apex of the curve. Like badly laid flex track. Makes you wonder about the quality of the track work.
There's another elephant in the room. Running "high speed" passenger trains on basically freight tracks. We're just playing at this high speed trains concept if we can't develop dedicated ROWs. I also find that track geometry to be dubious and that my track on my layout wouldn't work so well if it did that. I too have super-elevation of two broad outer curves mainly because it just looks cool to see the train navigating it. It also slightly reduces the physics that want to take the train off the rails at that tangent. I don't have I-5 at the bottom, but I have a concrete floor and my engines look like that Siemens after they hit.
Interesting Modular interior
The last photo shows the short straight section in the curve. ?? Lionel does better.
jim pastorius posted:There is a more recent photo showing workers there at the track, the engine and cars are removed and there is a short straight piece at the apex of the curve. Like badly laid flex track. Makes you wonder about the quality of the track work.
Really???? Just what would you EXPECT the track to look like after a 270,000 pound locomotive, with a 12 car passenger train, entered the curve at almost three times the posted speed?
Think again, Hot Dog-the track was cleared and being repaired by the workers ready for use. The engine going 3 times the speed limit went off the track before that spot and was on I-5. Actually the track didn't look that ripped up for a derailment.
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