Amtrak Train derails in Pierce County, Wa.

Months of non revenue testing on the new route by Amtrak before the fatal crash. From reading reports, it is my understanding that PTC was not to far off, perhaps only a few months away from being completed on this route which most likely would have prevented this accident.

My question to Amtrak's  CEO would be, you complete your testing on the new route before the inaugural run, why on earth would you not wait for PTC to be implemented and tested before starting revenue service? Why not add that extra layer of safety?  Have you not learned from previous accidents? I'm sure it come down to $$$

What's that quote, I believe from Albert Einstein?

Insanity is repeating the same mistakes and expecting different results.

Hot Water posted:

prrhorseshoecurve posted:

So is the Talgo "Toast"?

Some of the totally destroyed cars, probably yes.

Will the Charger be Rebuilt?

I should think so, depending on the condition of the underframe structure.

 

Some have said that the locomotive looks like it rolled over.  I do no believe that it did. The extensive damage to the front, right side and roof of the locomotive appears to have been done by striking several 100 foot tall fir trees.  Ninety feet of tree then fell on the roof of the locomotive and the trailing passenger cars after the bottom ten feet of the 24" to 30" diameter trunks shattered in the initial impact.  The locomotive structure might not be square after all that.  Comparison of a pre and post accident vibration analysis of the prime mover and generator would be interesting. 

Here is a view from 40 years ago.  The trees had grown quite a bit since then.  The Point Defiance main line is in the lower part of the picture and the junction is just out of frame to the right.  There would have been no point in eliminating the 30 mph curves for the bridge since it is so close to the speed restriction for the junction and crossover.

jvega2 posted:

Months of non revenue testing on the new route by Amtrak before the fatal crash. From reading reports, it is my understanding that PTC was not to far off, perhaps only a few months away from being completed on this route which most likely would have prevented this accident.

My question to Amtrak's  CEO would be, you complete your testing on the new route before the inaugural run, why on earth would you not wait for PTC to be implemented and tested before starting revenue service? Why not add that extra layer of safety?  Have you not learned from previous accidents? I'm sure it come down to $$$

What's that quote, I believe from Albert Einstein?

Insanity is repeating the same mistakes and expecting different results.

 

 

You ARE Kidding Right?

Why on God's Green Earth, would they wait for PTC to be completed on this line before using it?

Do you understand that this is just a segment of a long time established run? That the original segment that this is replacing DOESN'T HAVE PTC EITHER, and that besides saving time, another reason for the new segment was to better separate Passenger from Freight traffic. AFAIK, Sounder commuter trains were already using this line before Amtrak started using it too.

 So if they waited until PTC WAS installed, and continued using the original route, and there was a wreck involving a Passenger and a Freight train, there would be people (probably yourself) howling "WHY Did You WAIT for PTC to separate Passenger and Freight traffic?" Neither line had functioning PTC yet, why wait to separate F&P traffic? PTC may not be ready on this line until the END of next year, from what has been reported, with all the trouble and delays to this point with PTC, would You bet your mortgage payment on it being ready by then?

As to PTC in general, it is Simply AMAZING just how many people don't understand the complexity of the system. The PTC system has to integrate how many Railroads of various sizes? There are TENS of THOUSANDS of Locomotives that must be equipped, what, a couple HUNDRED THOUSAND MILES of track involved, and it ALL MUST WORK FLAWLESSLY.

Please, don't even TRY to compare PTC with ANY other system in the World, there is No other system that has to handle the number of separate railroads, the amount of locomotives and track and so many other variables, as the North American Rail Network does.

PTC, is an UNFUNDED mandate by the government, with an unrealistic deadline, with equipment that didn't even EXIST when PTC was mandated. 

PTC is not an "Off the Shelf" system, people need to get realistic about what PTC IS, What it CAN/WILL do, and WHEN it WILL be READY.

Doug

challenger3980 posted:

jvega2 posted:

Months of non revenue testing on the new route by Amtrak before the fatal crash. From reading reports, it is my understanding that PTC was not to far off, perhaps only a few months away from being completed on this route which most likely would have prevented this accident.

My question to Amtrak's  CEO would be, you complete your testing on the new route before the inaugural run, why on earth would you not wait for PTC to be implemented and tested before starting revenue service? Why not add that extra layer of safety?  Have you not learned from previous accidents? I'm sure it come down to $$$

What's that quote, I believe from Albert Einstein?

Insanity is repeating the same mistakes and expecting different results.

 

 

You ARE Kidding Right?

Why on God's Green Earth, would they wait for PTC to be completed on this line before using it?

How about for safety????

Do you understand that this is just a segment of a long time established run? That the original segment that this is replacing DOESN'T HAVE PTC EITHER,

WRONG!!!!  The entire BNSF Seattle Subdivision is ALL PTC equipped and ALL BNSF and UP freight trains on that extremely busy double track main line between Seattle and Portland, operate under PTC. ONLY Amtrak is NOT using PTC, yet.

and that besides saving time, another reason for the new segment was to better separate Passenger from Freight traffic. AFAIK, Sounder commuter trains were already using this line before Amtrak started using it too.

 So if they waited until PTC WAS installed, and continued using the original route, and there was a wreck involving a Passenger and a Freight train, there would be people (probably yourself) howling "WHY Did You WAIT for PTC to separate Passenger and Freight traffic?"

Funny that that is EXACTLY what has been happening between Seattle and Portland, for quite a long time, i.e. both BNSF and UP freight trains have/use PTC and Amtrak does NOT?  Why NOT?????

Neither line had functioning PTC yet, why wait to separate F&P traffic? PTC may not be ready on this line until the END of next year, from what has been reported, with all the trouble and delays to this point with PTC, would You bet your mortgage payment on it being ready by then?

As to PTC in general, it is Simply AMAZING just how many people don't understand the complexity of the system. The PTC system has to integrate how many Railroads of various sizes? There are TENS of THOUSANDS of Locomotives that must be equipped, what, a couple HUNDRED THOUSAND MILES of track involved, and it ALL MUST WORK FLAWLESSLY.

Please, don't even TRY to compare PTC with ANY other system in the World, there is No other system that has to handle the number of separate railroads, the amount of locomotives and track and so many other variables, as the North American Rail Network does.

PTC, is an UNFUNDED mandate by the government, with an unrealistic deadline, with equipment that didn't even EXIST when PTC was mandated. 

PTC is not an "Off the Shelf" system, people need to get realistic about what PTC IS, What it CAN/WILL do, and WHEN it WILL be READY.

Doug

Another funded mandate from the "government".  "We are from the government, we are here to help."  HA!!

Melvin P posted:

Another funded mandate from the "government".  "We are from the government, we are here to help."  HA!!

I assume you mean UNfunded mandate...

And yet everybody and their brother keeps saying how the mandated PTC system would have prevented this disaster.

Rusty

Rusty Traque posted:

Melvin P posted:

Another funded mandate from the "government".  "We are from the government, we are here to help."  HA!!

I assume you mean UNfunded mandate...

And yet everybody and their brother keeps saying how the mandated PTC system would have prevented this disaster.

Rusty

Just my opinion but, since the line does indeed have PTC, but Amtrak doesn't yet, then yes, had this train in question had FUNCTIONAL PTC, the overspeed could not have occurred and the derailment would not have happened. Surprisingly, the same situation with Amtrak train #188 which entered a 50 or 60 MPH curve at 100+ MPH, in the Philadelphia area, as PTC was NOT FUNCTIONAL in THAT AREA.

Ironically, two respected passenger rail advocates (and NOT "foamers"), tragically died in this crash according to a news report. :-(

Another funded mandate from the "government".  "We are from the government, we are here to help."  HA!!

What is your point?
Is there something the railroads were going to do in place of PTC?

If we as a nation want Amtrak to act as a "National" railroad then Congress needs to fund them properly. Look at the disaster at Penn Station in NYC where the busiest commuter railroads in the nation vie for track and platform space. The tunnels under both rivers are crumbling and all Amtrak can do is say that they lack the funding to do the work.

I'm with many above on PTC. How could they build this new line and not install it from the beginning? Would have prevented a tragedy for sure.

You know, I really hate that word, foamers.  It is too often used as a ad hominem way of avoiding useful debate.

Anyway, one could say that, if AMTRAK had FUNCTIONAL ETC (=Engineer Train Control), the accident would not have happened.  Rather than harp on what was not there, why is the focus not on what WAS there, the engineer.  Someone asked above about the number of accidents that are operator error. 

There have always been accidents caused by poor decisions on the part of engineers  (think Casey Jones).  Are we dealing with the same sort of attitude?   What lies behind the psychology of these incidents?

Besides, I am no believer in technological solutions.  Every tech solution that gest initiated where I work causes several more problems.  Before throwing money and hardware at the problem, let's find out what the problem really is.

The Charger locomotive has been moved up I-5 and all the equipment is removed from the scene (I don't know about the P42 but I didn't see it going through there this morning). We're all hoping they'll open I-5 by the evening commute.
The bridge connecting Mounts Road to the golf course was still covered with tents and cameras on tripods this morning, but will nothing to video to the south now, I suspect many (if not all) will be gone by tomorrow.
We've been lucky, being allowed to go through Perimeter road on JBLM to Mounts Road southbound. Yesterday we were only delayed by 20 minutes going home. People going the back way around JBLM through Yelm and Roy have reported that commute took several hours.

People who remember the floods at Chehalis about 10 years ago don't consider this that bad a problem. In those twin floods, the only way through was a detour that would take half a day.

Question for those who operate in PTC areas:  have there been changes to operating rules since PTC was turned on?  For example, are two-man crews no longer required since PTC acts as a second set of eyes in the cab?  Or is PTC supposed to be a fail-safe for the crew?

Wally

Hot Water posted:

challenger3980 posted:

jvega2 posted:

Months of non revenue testing on the new route by Amtrak before the fatal crash. From reading reports, it is my understanding that PTC was not to far off, perhaps only a few months away from being completed on this route which most likely would have prevented this accident.

My question to Amtrak's  CEO would be, you complete your testing on the new route before the inaugural run, why on earth would you not wait for PTC to be implemented and tested before starting revenue service? Why not add that extra layer of safety?  Have you not learned from previous accidents? I'm sure it come down to $$$

What's that quote, I believe from Albert Einstein?

Insanity is repeating the same mistakes and expecting different results.

 

 

You ARE Kidding Right?

Why on God's Green Earth, would they wait for PTC to be completed on this line before using it?

How about for safety????

Do you understand that this is just a segment of a long time established run? That the original segment that this is replacing DOESN'T HAVE PTC EITHER,

WRONG!!!!  The entire BNSF Seattle Subdivision is ALL PTC equipped and ALL BNSF and UP freight trains on that extremely busy double track main line between Seattle and Portland, operate under PTC. ONLY Amtrak is NOT using PTC, yet.

and that besides saving time, another reason for the new segment was to better separate Passenger from Freight traffic. AFAIK, Sounder commuter trains were already using this line before Amtrak started using it too.

 So if they waited until PTC WAS installed, and continued using the original route, and there was a wreck involving a Passenger and a Freight train, there would be people (probably yourself) howling "WHY Did You WAIT for PTC to separate Passenger and Freight traffic?"

Funny that that is EXACTLY what has been happening between Seattle and Portland, for quite a long time, i.e. both BNSF and UP freight trains have/use PTC and Amtrak does NOT?  Why NOT?????

Neither line had functioning PTC yet, why wait to separate F&P traffic? PTC may not be ready on this line until the END of next year, from what has been reported, with all the trouble and delays to this point with PTC, would You bet your mortgage payment on it being ready by then?

As to PTC in general, it is Simply AMAZING just how many people don't understand the complexity of the system. The PTC system has to integrate how many Railroads of various sizes? There are TENS of THOUSANDS of Locomotives that must be equipped, what, a couple HUNDRED THOUSAND MILES of track involved, and it ALL MUST WORK FLAWLESSLY.

Please, don't even TRY to compare PTC with ANY other system in the World, there is No other system that has to handle the number of separate railroads, the amount of locomotives and track and so many other variables, as the North American Rail Network does.

PTC, is an UNFUNDED mandate by the government, with an unrealistic deadline, with equipment that didn't even EXIST when PTC was mandated. 

PTC is not an "Off the Shelf" system, people need to get realistic about what PTC IS, What it CAN/WILL do, and WHEN it WILL be READY.

Doug

 

I apologize, I was under the mistaken impression that was not PTC functional yet.

 The Supposed "Safety " of using the old PTC equipped route is debatable, is running a Non-PTC equipped passenger train amongst PTC equipped Freight trains "Safer" than running that passenger train Separated from the freight trains completely?

PTC would NOT have prevented this type of accident on the original route, as the Amtrak train did not have functioning PTC.

PTC would prevent a freight from an incursion into the passenger trains "territory " but would have no effect on the passenger train itself.

 I Am not a working rail, but in MY OPINION, it would have been just as SAFE to operate the passenger train separated from the freight, as it would be to operate the passenger train in a "Busy" freight corridor without the passenger train having functioning PTC.

Just MY OPINION, YMMV

Doug

Crash cleanup photos (photo credit KIRO Tacoma, Washington): 

That is one cool looking lowboy.
Thanks for sharing.

Ralph M posted:

Crash cleanup photos (photo credit KIRO Tacoma, Washington): 

Hi Ralph M: Thanks for sharing all these photos and giving the source.

Gary

RSJB18 posted:

That is one cool looking lowboy.
Thanks for sharing.

Locomotive alone weighs 270,000 pounds.

overlandflyer posted:

GVDobler posted:

... Today you have to bring your driving record to an airline interview. If you have a ticket, the interview is over.

categorically untrue.  DWI/DUI and license suspensions are the only things that are considered.  i know of no pilots who have never gotten a speeding ticket.  frankly, the FAA will be contacting you as a private pilot if they see a suspension (typically a consequence of a DWI/DUI anyway) occur, so even non-commercial pilots need to keep that part of their record clean.

cheers...gary

Sorry, but the airline company does look at your driving record. You are required to bring a copy with you to the interview. What the FAA looks at and what an airline looks at can be different. When the airline asks, why you got the speeding ticket, there is no correct answer. If you interviewed anytime in the last 20 years with an airline, this would be the case.

As I said, crusty old captains don't have the hands off status they once did. Now CRM (crew resource management) is the rule in the cockpit. If there were 3 people in the cab of that train and nobody spoke up about the speed, that's as much a cause as the speed itself. 

If one of your speeding ticket pilots interviews for a job with a part 121 carrier, let us know how they handled the question. Cheers

Looks like there's STILL a pusher on that train . . .

OGR Webmaster posted:

GVDobler posted:

... Today you have to bring your driving record to an airline interview. If you have a ticket, the interview is over.

Where do some of you people get your so-called "facts?" This is absolutely, totally, unequivocally WRONG!

I am a Commercial Pilot. I make a nice second income flying aircraft. I've had a few pilot employment interviews in my life. I have NEVER, EVER been asked to bring my driving record to an interview.

The FAA regs allow require me to submit all my driving infractions to the FAA on my Medical Exam application each year. Since my driving record is always cross-checked in this process, I have to be truthful about it. If you omit a driving violation, you're toast. However, the ONLY thing in your driving record that is considered disqualifying is a DUI. Speeding tickets mean nothing.

Rich

I too am a pilot. As an ATP pilot, I flew for a part 121 carrier after I retired from work. (still had a couple years before required retirement birthday)

Many pilots I know, fly non-sched flights and you are correct, that most operators don't look at driving records. I can assure you that part 121 carriers do in fact look at your driving record and expect to see a clean record. If you have any tickets you probably won't get through the initial interview.

I'm just wondering if the railroads still operate under the old way of "captains rule" and don't challenge them.

OGR Webmaster posted:

GVDobler posted:

... Today you have to bring your driving record to an airline interview. If you have a ticket, the interview is over.

Where do some of you people get your so-called "facts?" This is absolutely, totally, unequivocally WRONG!

I am a Commercial Pilot. I make a nice second income flying aircraft. I've had a few pilot employment interviews in my life. I have NEVER, EVER been asked to bring my driving record to an interview.

The FAA regs allow require me to submit all my driving infractions to the FAA on my Medical Exam application each year. Since my driving record is always cross-checked in this process, I have to be truthful about it. If you omit a driving violation, you're toast. However, the ONLY thing in your driving record that is considered disqualifying is a DUI. Speeding tickets mean nothing.

I'll give you credit where credit is due Rich.

Didn't you say you started out as a COBOL programmer for a cable TV outfit?

From that to WLE brakie to diesel and steam engineer for OC and mainline steam engineer and fixed wing commercial pilot. 

AND have a train magazine and web site.

You must have 48 hours in every day and be a VERY nice guy with tons of friends to move such through a range of things in life!

6 pages of posts & not one person has spelled out PTC. What does PTC stand for. I guess I am the only one on here that is not a expert on train wrecks.

PTC = Positive Train Control

PST = Pacific Standard Time

PTS = Points

eddie g posted:

6 pages of posts & not one person has spelled out PTC. What does PTC stand for. I guess I am the only one on here that is not a expert on train wrecks.

For crying out loud, don't you even watch TV news, or read the news papers? The term PTC (Positive Train Control) has been in the news for many years now, especially after Congress tased an extension for its complete implementation completion.

I'll Google it for you...

http://www.cnn.com/2017/12/19/...ol-amtrak/index.html

And in case you missed it, this is a posting from this thread. It is post #7 on page #2.

Severn posted:

Not to speculate about this one itself,  but is there nothing on these train systems that auto set the speed on curves and other areas of hazard?

It's being worked on - the system is called PTC.

https://www.aar.org/policy/positive-train-control

PTC is still being installed and tested throughout the national rail network. I believe almost all lines that passenger trains operate on are to have PTC.

My guess is that PTC is still being installed between Portland and Seattle as it is a few years behind schedule as it had to be designed and built from scratch. Having operational PTC probably would have reduced the train's speed prior to entering the curve or exceeding the track speed limit.

All the RR stuff from the wreck is off the site (can't tell if the P42 is still on site, as it was always still on the rails) and up at JBLM. The loco got moved past here earlier today (I've heard rumors that the trailer with the Charger Locomotive collapsed a water main or sewer pipe along it's route but don't know if that's correct).

They're opening up the 2 left lanes southbound at 5PM.

Still no updates for my friends, they all still in the hospitals. The engineer's status of course is being held a tight secret. I don't even wanna post his first name here, as nobody is listing it anywhere that I've seen. I don't want the press to bug his wife, as she's got enough to deal with right now.

we have to take it easy on eddie g......they didnt put PTC  in prewar lionel...

I-5 is open now, for the 2 left lanes.

Jim Berger posted:

we have to take it easy on eddie g......they didnt put PTC  in prewar lionel...

Siemens forgot to include Magnetraction in Charger locomotives.  

So is this engine totaled?  Or will it be repaired and put back in service?

Drummer3 posted:

So is this engine totaled? 

Probably not.

Or will it be repaired and put back in service?

Might very well be, depending on an extensive mechanical inspection and final decision by the insurance company (pretty much like you automobile).

 

Drummer3 posted:

Was there an engineer in the trailing engine as well? 

No.

and . . .  I assume this trailing engine is needed for extra push on inclines??

No. the unit on the rear is primarily so the the entire train doesn't have to be turned at the end of the run. According to Amtrak, that trailing unit was not loading, i.e. "isolated". The leading unit was "doing all the work".

Amtrak Cascades train

Here is a video of a Cascades train (not the one in the wreck).   

So is this a power unit as well?

Dave

The Power/Baggage cars at the end of the talgo trainsets have diesel generators to supply electrical power to the train for light and heat/air conditioning.  They do not supply motive power to the train.  The power cars allow the Talgo trains to be hauled by a freight locomotive if a passenger locomotive with HEP is not available.

HOTWATER, I know about positive train control. I just forgot those were the initials for that. I have ridden more long distance trains in the last 3 years than you have in your life. I'm 87, I do forget sometimes.

eddie g posted:

 I have ridden more long distance trains in the last 3 years than you have in your life. I'm 87, I do forget sometimes.

Yeah, probably not.

I'm guessing HW has probably ridden more long distance trains than in two of your lifetimes.

Hot Water posted:

eddie g posted:

6 pages of posts & not one person has spelled out PTC. What does PTC stand for. I guess I am the only one on here that is not a expert on train wrecks.

For crying out loud, don't you even watch TV news, or read the news papers? The term PTC (Positive Train Control) has been in the news for many years now, especially after Congress tased an extension for its complete implementation completion.

Or spend 30 seconds on Google instead of waiting for 6 pages of posts?

Where are the beautiful streamliners of years gone by ??  These new trains are UGLY. That Siemens Charger lost some sheet metal going through the trees but looked  pretty straight sitting on the lo boy.