The picture below shows where the train came to rest.  The lead locomotive is the one at the very top of the frame, now sitting on I-5.  This is a good 30-40 feet down below the tracks.  I would not be surprised if at some point the lead locomotive had been airborne, especially if it was doing 80 mph.  I don't believe the train cars are new and the route is not new either, just the passenger sevice.  It is being reported that the tracks at this curve were recently upgraded and other images appears to confirm this.  The Talgo cars or "consist" also have two unique cars at each end.  These can be identified by curved parts going above the roof of the car always toward the engine.  They always make me think of Cadillac fins from the 50's.  If you look at the picture below, there is one still attached to the trailing locomotive.  The other laying on it's side on the south side of the trestle, partly resting on the freeway.  There is another picture being posted which shows the top of the lead locomotive appears to have been peeled from the back towards the front.  It makes me wonder if the second car was on top of the locomotive at some point during the accident.  I cannot say for sure that the lead engine didn't hit something before the derailment, however, when the train derailed, it did hit cars and trucks that were traveling on the freeway.

I live in Seattle and have been past this part of the freeway many, many times.  My sister and her carpool past this trestle less than 3 minutes before the accident.  Many prayer for everyone involved.

The thing I don't get is with all the train fans and dash cameras on the vehicles going by, you think somebody would have caught this on video as that actually happened

Hot Water posted:

mike g. posted:

Watching the news and they just off loaded dozers with side arms to raise the cars and move them!

Really, "side arms"?  I'm sure you mean those special Cats with "Side Booms", that can lift almost ANYTHING.

LOL that's what I mean!

I  would imagine the two end units would have cameras. from the aerial vie, it is hard to imagine 79 MPH through the approach and the bridge. I am surprised at how well the cars seem to have held together plus the engines. was the operator killed ??

Aero Photos

Source: AP

Gary

jim pastorius posted:

I  would imagine the two end units would have cameras. from the aerial vie, it is hard to imagine 79 MPH through the approach and the bridge. I am surprised at how well the cars seem to have held together plus the engines. was the operator killed ??

No, the Engineer was not "killed" and can be heard on the radio to the Dispatcher that Amtrak 501 is "on the ground". Those units also have the mandatory event recorder as well as inward & outward facing video cameras. All such "data" will be recovered and downloaded as part of the investigation.

Local news coverage

http://www.kiro7.com/news

I can't believe nobody got killed in the cars/trucks.

Leaving the work in a few minutes, we'll see how it goes or how things will work out tomorrow morning...

Don't some/all the talgo cars have single axles?  Saw a picture of a wheel bogey on the interstate pavement and it appeared to be single axle.  Ok, not a scintilla of evidence, but I am darkly suspicious of that equipment. I recall the CSX Road Railers, which were single axle equipment, had all kinds of derailment difficulties in the mid-'80's.   But a derailment at 81 mph, even with solid 12 wheel, all-steel, heavy-weight passenger equipment from the 1920's, would still produce a goodly number of casualties.

Hot Water posted:

jim pastorius posted:

I  would imagine the two end units would have cameras. from the aerial vie, it is hard to imagine 79 MPH through the approach and the bridge. I am surprised at how well the cars seem to have held together plus the engines. was the operator killed ??

No, the Engineer was not "killed" and can be heard on the radio to the Dispatcher that Amtrak 501 is "on the ground". Those units also have the mandatory event recorder as well as inward & outward facing video cameras. All such "data" will be recovered and downloaded as part of the investigation.

The engineer, I was told, has some bruises and abrasions and some glass cuts from his wild ride down that embankment. Sure looks like he rolled the locomotive from the damage to the top of it, but I don't know that for sure.

I actually talked with the engineer at an event in October. I'm glad he doesn't appear to have bene badly hurt.

But I had three pals on the train, two of them were badly dinged up. There were indeed at least three "railroad buffs" on board...

At first I thought the person who called dispatch was in the rear engine. You say it was the engineer in the front engine after that wild ride down the embankment?

cjack posted:

At first I thought the person who called dispatch was in the rear engine. You say it was the engineer in the front engine after that wild ride down the embankment?

Latest information is, the Engineer is indeed still alive with only minor cuts to he's head, and both eyes swollen shut. However, the audio released of a crew member alerting the Dispatcher, is now indicated to actually be the Conductor.

From the aerial view it looks like the train went off before the curve over the bridge.  Hopefully they will take a harder look at some of these high speed projects. Is the little bit of time saved running these faster trains justify the increased risk ??

jim pastorius posted:

From the aerial view it looks like the train went off before the curve over the bridge.  Hopefully they will take a harder look at some of these high speed projects.

High speed projects? That rail line is only 79 MPH, i.e. NOT "high speed" as far as passenger trains go.

Is the little bit of time saved running these faster trains justify the increased risk ??

 I measured 80 mph on Amtrak in Central Illinois on the previous IC RR tracks (now CN) with a GPS held up to the window. Of course...there are no curves in Illinois

I agree 79 mph does not qualify as high speed rail anywhere but the USA. 

Somewhere in the middle of nowhere American southwest......on the SWC...about as fast as HSR gets....

With the high speeds thee trains run-do the engine crews have seat belts Would it be feasible ?  Just wondering.

AMCDave posted:

I agree 79 mph does not qualify as high speed rail anywhere but the USA. 

Somewhere in the middle of nowhere American southwest......on the SWC...about as fast as HSR gets....

I recently rode the Palmetto from 30th Street Station in Philly to Charleston, SC. I didn't think of a phone app to track speed. I did use the Amtrak site most of the time as WiFi allowed to track the speed. I'm fairly new to my fascination with trains, but I agree with others sentiments that 79-81mph is not high speed.

I'm sorry to see an event like this occur. On top of the massive tragedy this is related to injury and loss of life, there already seems to be much stacked against passenger rail service in this country. I was highly satisfied with the service I received on Amtrak.

If you look closely at the drone photos you can see articulated shorties.  If you look at this trooper's photo you see what looks like a single axle wheel set at each body joint.  If I am viewing correctly.

If the train was traveling right to left in the photo it seems like centrifugal force worked on the  lead loco rolling outward with some of the cars and the back of the initial cars which rolled right provided a bumper / diversion effect which propelled the remaining cars inward off the curve onto the highway. 

If it was an overspeed based accident just think of what the situation would be if the train just wobbled and remained upright thru the first curve then entered the reverse half of the "S" curve.  

That "S" curve should have been straightened prior to passenger service.  May well be a repeat of the recent North Philly corridor accident. 

I wonder if there was a mechanical event occurring outside of the train?

Check out the Mapquest Google earth photo of the right of way just SW of Dupont WA.  Seems to be a restricted speed "S"  curve.

Some of the cars on the interstate were going faster than 80mph before this horrible train wreck.  

From the Seattle Times...

Daniel Konzelman was driving to work in Olympia with his girlfriend, Alicia Hoverson, when they saw the train zipping by them along I-5 before the bridge. He said they were traveling about 60 mph.

Looking more like speed was a factor...

Gpritch posted:

Surefire posted:

Seems like this loco rolled.  The aerial photos show roof top apparatus in the woods closer to the tracks.  It is surprising that it stopped upright. 

Good point, seems odd that if the train was going 80 mph that the engineer would have survived, plus, if you look at the other high view pictures of the engine, it did not travel that far after vaulting off of the tracks, and then move down the hillside.  Perhaps big trees slowed the engine down? 

Ironhorseman posted:

The picture below shows where the train came to rest.  The lead locomotive is the one at the very top of the frame, now sitting on I-5.  This is a good 30-40 feet down below the tracks.  I would not be surprised if at some point the lead locomotive had been airborne, especially if it was doing 80 mph.  I don't believe the train cars are new and the route is not new either, just the passenger sevice.  It is being reported that the tracks at this curve were recently upgraded and other images appears to confirm this.  The Talgo cars or "consist" also have two unique cars at each end.  These can be identified by curved parts going above the roof of the car always toward the engine.  They always make me think of Cadillac fins from the 50's.  If you look at the picture below, there is one still attached to the trailing locomotive.  The other laying on it's side on the south side of the trestle, partly resting on the freeway.  There is another picture being posted which shows the top of the lead locomotive appears to have been peeled from the back towards the front.  It makes me wonder if the second car was on top of the locomotive at some point during the accident.  I cannot say for sure that the lead engine didn't hit something before the derailment, however, when the train derailed, it did hit cars and trucks that were traveling on the freeway.

I live in Seattle and have been past this part of the freeway many, many times.  My sister and her carpool past this trestle less than 3 minutes before the accident.  Many prayer for everyone involved.

 

You are correct, this was an original Talgo set (not the ugly Talgo 8s) and the train has been around since the late 90's/early 2000s. Could have been in service about 1998. The finned transition cars have extra HEP and Baggage space, as most if not all Cascades Cabbages aren't really Cabbages because they lack a baggage compartment. This particular set, as has been established, was running with an older GE P42DC and a brand-new Siemens SC-44 Charger which is essentially the ACS-64's diesel cousin. The SC-44 Chargers have just begun to take over for F59PHIs and are eventually supposed to get rid of P42DCs on Cascades trains, as P42DCs are supposed to be busy pulling the Seattle and Portland sections of the Empire Builder and the Coast Starlight. Amtrak never expected the F59PHI-led routes to be as popular as they are, which is why you'll see P42DCs and P32-8BWHs subbing in occasionally. 

This wreck might just deal a heavy blow to Amtrak. With the Trump Administration expressing interest in ending Amtrak to fund other infrastructure projects, I'd say this isn't good.

A top headline on google news reads "NTSB: Amtrack Washington Train Traveling At 80 MPH In 30 MPH Zone".   While I'm not about to second guess the decisions in the "cockpit",  why isn't there some automation these days ensuring the zone speed? ... Without some explicit overrides... ?  Maybe there is?  

On the news this a.m. the NTSB spokesman said the train was travelling 80 mph in a 30 mph zone.  If that is true, I would like to smack the engineer upside his head with a 2x4 and ask him "Why?".

Larry

LLKJR posted:

On the news this a.m. the NTSB spokesman said the train was travelling 80 mph in a 30 mph zone.  If that is true, I would like to smack the engineer upside his head with a 2x4 and ask him "Why?".

Larry

"Inattentive driving" or "driving distractions" they might call it driving a motor vehicle!

Time will tell  and the facts will all come out as to the sequence of events.  The engineer would most certainly know all of the speeds for the entire route and if he/she wasn't qualified for the route there would most certainly be someone with them that was .

Wonder how many were in the cab?

Why?  Because Positive Train Control was not deemed "affordable".  Now let's see how affordable the lawsuits are. 

Maybe that is the answer.....Their insurance company will  help with the lawsuits but insurance companies will not pay for PTC.

Didn't the North Philly speeding train on a curve accident make the Washington news media?

Someone once said that if you ignore the past you are bound to repeat it.

Ok I'd never heard of PTC -- but considering there are already similar sounding systems deployed in other countries for the problem.  Like, why not just buy it from them?

Severn posted:

Ok I'd never heard of PTC -- but considering there are already similar sounding systems deployed in other countries for the problem.  Like, why not just buy it from them?

You are over simplifying. The "cost" isn't just for the PTC hardware, and installation of same. The REAL issue is getting all the hardware, and its "software", to communicate with the GPS satellites, all the ground receivers/transmitters, and all the various locomotives throughout the entire U.S.. 

A lot of this stuff is over simplified-it is not "plug and play".  The US is a big complicated country with a big complicated rail system.  After this latest event, I think a serious look should be taken in to AMTRAK'S  engineer training. They supposedly had been running test trains on this new route.

Hot Water posted:

BobbyD posted:

Is this a push pull train with locomotives at both ends?

I believe I explained that above.

If the news person is correct the train was traveling from right to left in the pictures?

Guess it depends on which pictures you have seen.

If so, is a grade crossing ahead there?. (The girl did say the conductor caused a crash on another train because he did not slow down so I'm not sure how accurate their info is.)

As usual, the news media "talking heads" ALWAYS seem think that the Conductor operates the train! Per Rich Melvin,,,,,,,"Journalism is dead!".

 

Absolutely true. The only thing you can learn from the lamestream [sic] media is that they seldom have a clue about what they're reporting.

So often have I seen them fail to get simple facts correct in their reporting about rail accidents that I no longer have any confidence that they are accurate on any other subject, including the weather and sports.

Season it with their biases and political agendas and you have the recipe for bullc__p stew.

I remember interviews with former NTSB board members, following the fatal wrecks on Metro North (Spuyten Duyvil) and Amtrak (Frankford Junction). In both cases the newsbots kept referring to the engineer as "the conducter" In both cases, the NTSB guest made an effort to correct them. Undeterred, the mediot imbeciles continued calling the engineer "the conducter".

I was inferring, guessing really that the US felt the need to develop its own system and that was part of the too expensive cost estimate.  Which is, after all, what everyone does half the time at least when these systems seem state financed, not market ready stuff.  But I'm guessing at all that.   I also have a feeling its cultural to a point.  I suspect as soon the word "automation" comes out -- that some then say "we mean driverless trains!" -- an naturally folks push back at that.  I don't mean that mind you.  I'm not interested in driverless cars, trains or planes.  Although we may one day be able to do it with 100% assurance safety will go up completely, I suspect most of the bang for the buck today is with some automation add-ons to help drivers make decisions at the right times.   And that's what I mean.

This is a deep and involved story and tragic event. If you seek out non-traditional media for information you will see how convoluted the history of this 'high speed rail' project was and is.   I don't watch CNN or MSNBC so I have no idea if they are covering all the story....but it's out there.  

When you read these stories keep in mind that it is entertainment, not enlightenment. Many years ago when I complained, in person, to a  TV station story in Pittsburgh, that is what the head of their news dept. told me. That thought makes it easier to deal with this stuff.

GenesisFan99 posted:

Hot Water posted:

The GN Man posted:

Looking at the televised pictures, this train was in “push” mode, with  P42 on the rear. That accounts for the locomotive still on the rails. This route has undergone testing for several months. The “experts” on CNN right now are clueless...

I'm pretty sure that those Amtrak Cascade passenger trains have some sort of "locomotive" on each end. Thus the powered unit may have been "pushing" on the rear, while the Engineer was controlling from a "Cabbage", or non-powered former locomotive. In other words, they do NOT use "Cab Cars" for controlling as commuter trains do. 

Some Amtrak Cascade trains do use Cab Cars on the newer Talgo sets (Talgo 8 I believe). Some of the sets are Cabbage equipped, however. I much prefer the Cabbage sets, the Talgo 8 Cab Cars are ugly. 

Well pretty much everything Amtrak runs anymore is butt-ugly. The P42s are hideous, but the Chargers are so euro-trash looking that they make the P42s look half-way decent. Don't even get me started about the Siemens wire-scrapers on the Northeast Corridor. 

Sorry kids, I grew up in a world of GG1s and E and F units. Those were REAL locomotives.

trainroomgary posted:

Aero Photos

Source: AP

Gary

Looking at the disturbed soil in the photos Trainroomgary posted, it's puzzling to me how early in the curve the lead engine became grounded. In other photos of the engine the right side looks like it slid a long the ground. I believe it was on it's side as it passed the little shed in the picture because beginning at the shed there is a second path in the soil that leads to what looks like part of the engine's roof up in the trees. Makes me wonder if more then speed helped this engine leave the tracks. 

Dave Zucal posted:

Looking at the disturbed soil in the photos Trainroomgary posted, it's puzzling to me how early in the curve the lead engine became grounded. In other photos of the engine the right side looks like it slid a long the ground. I believe it was on it's side as it passed the little shed in the picture because beginning at the shed there is a second path in the soil that leads to what looks like part of the engine's roof up in the trees. Makes me wonder if more then speed helped this engine leave the tracks. 

For what it's  worth, late last night the NTSB held a news briefing, out there in Washington State, and stated that they had retrieved & down loaded to data from the event recorder (black box to the news media) in the rear/trailing diesel unit. Results, indicated that the train was moving at 80 MPH in that 30 MPH zone! Naturally, it is WAY TOO EARLY to determine WHY, but suffice it to say that more than double the speed allowed entering that curve,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,well the laws of physics sure came into play!

From the aerial photo it looks like the engine and first few cars left the track before the curve and the rear half stayed on the track and bed. I remember reading a story about one of these  transit systems looking at high speed passenger equipment. Talgo was mentioned with a comment of them being unstable at times especially in a "push" mode. Anyone remember that ?? This was an older Talgo, too.

Following up on Jack and Jim's comments concerning PTC; in the U.S. you have far more variability in train speeds than in Europe.  Additionally; freight trains on many European railroads are relatively short and generally operate at higher speeds than freight trains in this country.

In the U.S. you may have an Amtrak train traveling 79 mph weaving through intermodal running 60; mixed freight running 50 and mineral trains running 35-40.  You also have locals mixed in at different points.  When PTC was mandated by Congress (unfunded, I might add) the technology necessary for the U.S. rail system simply did not exist.

The railroads first had to agree on a common platform that permitted interoperability between railroads.  Once that was resolved; they had to submit applications to the FCC for every wayside tower needed for PTC and herein was another delay.  The FCC essentially refused to grant licenses while issues with property owners were resolved including Native Americans.

The freight railroads are fairly well along in the process of installing the necessary wayside and locomotive borne equipment.  They are also well along with training crews, dispatchers and other folks with the need to know.  

Despite this; given the complexity involved and the need for testing, it is unlikely most Class 1's will be fully operational by the end of 2018.  BNSF is probably in better shape than the other Class 1's and might actually be fully compliant by the end of next year.  I imagine the other six will have to request extensions.

People in the press and in Washington like to bellyache about the delays but; when you consider the magnitude and expense of the PTC requirement handed the railroads by Congress; it's a credit to the railroads they are at the point they are today.

Curt

Surefire posted:

This photo Surefire posted shows what looks like a can of spray paint in the troopers hand and letter A's painted on the engine. Anyone know what the A's stands for?