Hey all, I just realized I was looking at the wrong train bridge over I-5
The accident bridge is just north east. Zooming in on where Mounts Road crosses the track just off the highway exit, it looks like new pavement, and definitely a bridge now over mounts road for the train. Again, as of a late August 2017 satellite image.
New Haven Joe posted:I just saw this on TV. I hope that no one was injured.
There is some confusion about the route the train is taking. There is a new route between Tacoma and Portland that takes the train away from the Puget Sound Coast. Does anyone know if this is the new or old route?
The train is blocking I-5. I-5 is the main North / South highway between Canada and Southern CA. The portion between Seattle and Portland is extremely busy. This is going to be a mess for a long time.
NH Joe
Many passengers killed it is now reported.
Lee, I feel for you, but you might want to get a room in town!
Not to speculate about this one itself, but is there nothing on these train systems that auto set the speed on curves and other areas of hazard?
Local news states 6 have died. Prayers for there families!
mike g. posted:Lee, I feel for you, but you might want to get a room in town!
We'll likely go through the Narrows an the long way back through Olympia. Depends on much a jerk the driver will be. Yelm/Roy will be insanely backed up. I just hope they open Mounts road for the Dupont traffic before we leave this afternoon!
Severn posted:Not to speculate about this one itself, but is there nothing on these train systems that auto set the speed on curves and other areas of hazard?
It's being worked on - the system is called PTC.
https://www.aar.org/policy/positive-train-control
PTC is still being installed and tested throughout the national rail network. I believe almost all lines that passenger trains operate on are to have PTC.
My guess is that PTC is still being installed between Portland and Seattle as it is a few years behind schedule as it had to be designed and built from scratch. Having operational PTC probably would have reduced the train's speed prior to entering the curve or exceeding the track speed limit.
Hot Water posted:The GN Man posted:Looking at the televised pictures, this train was in “push” mode, with P42 on the rear. That accounts for the locomotive still on the rails. This route has undergone testing for several months. The “experts” on CNN right now are clueless...
I'm pretty sure that those Amtrak Cascade passenger trains have some sort of "locomotive" on each end. Thus the powered unit may have been "pushing" on the rear, while the Engineer was controlling from a "Cabbage", or non-powered former locomotive. In other words, they do NOT use "Cab Cars" for controlling as commuter trains do.
Some Amtrak Cascade trains do use Cab Cars on the newer Talgo sets (Talgo 8 I believe). Some of the sets are Cabbage equipped, however. I much prefer the Cabbage sets, the Talgo 8 Cab Cars are ugly. 
This train had locomotives at each end, which is unusual for a Cascades. A band new SC-44 Charger loco was on point, with a P42DC on the tail end. I have no idea if the Charger was running at the time or just being used as a control car for the pusher in the back...
p51 posted:I can't open the CNN content to listen to it.
I was riding through there exactly when it happened in the vanpool, but was going northbound (you wouldn't have seen it going the opposite direction due to a large tree-covered berm between the directions there) and I was asleep at the time. Didn't know until I walked into the building (less than 1/4 mile from the site, also in Dupont).
Two train fan pals were riding this, and rode what would have been the final northbound along the sound, last night. One is in the hospital (with the type of injuries you get in a bad rear-end car collision) and the other nobody's heard from though I just heard that the latter guy was last seen being tended to and upright.
The one at the hospital now (who runs trains in a large coal plant and has been a hogger on Class II lines) called a mutual pal, who confirmed the train was going too fast for the curve. He'd confirmed the cascades went past the yard at Dupont at 81MPH. That's a slight dogleg to the right that direction, a sharp downgrade between the yard and gold course, and then a very tight left turn. I watched them lay the track over a long period through there and I know the freight speed limit is 10MPH. I have no idea what the speed ratings are between the yard and that curve for Cascades or the Coast Starlights.
I won't comment on what I'd heard from the engineer via a mutual friend. I have met this engineer recently and know who he is, but I can't say he's a friend of mine.
My head is not in work, even though everyone at work is just worried about getting home southbound tonight.
Amazingly, the Sprinter locomotive is in I-5 right now, well down from the bridge. The tracks are brand new, they just rebuilt that entire line over a long period and just got certified. No arguments can be made for poor MOW work.
Hey Lee, glad your alright. When it broke here and saw the pics, I knew it was going to be bad. They showed pics of the car that was crush sitting on the street . No way anybody in there survived. I was hoping that you were not on it or in that area taking pics. Seeing your post I know your alright. Seeing the engine I was wondering what happened to the new engines they had just taken delivery .
.
Did the second loco end up off the rails?
Lee, I hope its not hours for you to get home!
If you look at the pictures you can see the lead engine sitting down on the south bound lanes of I-5 still in the upright position! Makes you think it was being pushed.
Lee, the State Patrol just stated there is a bypass going threw Joint base Lewis Macord for southbound traffic! Hope that helps you! They are saying I-5 to be closed southbound for atleast 2-3 days!
uzukovich posted:Hey Lee, glad your alright. When it broke here and saw the pics, I knew it was going to be bad. They showed pics of the car that was crush sitting on the street . No way anybody in there survived. I was hoping that you were not on it or in that area taking pics. Seeing your post I know your alright. Seeing the engine I was wondering what happened to the new engines they had just taken delivery ..
Doug, don't know if you heard, but no one on the road was killed, all deaths were on the train.
Tinplate Art posted:Did the second loco end up off the rails?
Tinplate the second engine is still sitting on the track!
mike g. posted:uzukovich posted:Hey Lee, glad your alright. When it broke here and saw the pics, I knew it was going to be bad. They showed pics of the car that was crush sitting on the street . No way anybody in there survived. I was hoping that you were not on it or in that area taking pics. Seeing your post I know your alright. Seeing the engine I was wondering what happened to the new engines they had just taken delivery ..
Doug, don't know if you heard, but no one on the road was killed, all deaths were on the train.
The car that was crush was one of the passenger cars. I find it pretty amazing that car or trucks on the road didn't get hit. I remember in Germany when we had the real bad ICE derailment with a large loss of life. 4 of the cars hit the supports for the overpass and cause fatalities on the bridge that crossed the tracks.
Here is a cab-ride train video from Washington state I think may be similar to the one that crashed today. (not the same train) . Very cool tunnels.
Washington state train cab-ride
Is it correct that the train was made up of two locomotives and 12 cars and all but the trailing locomotive had derailed?
I heard that the curve had a speed limit of 79 mph and that the train was running 81 mph. Doesn't seem reasonable to me that 2 mph over should cause a derailment. That's not much margin of error.
Tim, I had the same thought. I think the standard safety factor for most industrial equipment (motors, hydraulics, bridges, etc.) is 20%, maybe 25%. Any engineering guys out there?
TM Terry posted:Is it correct that the train was made up of two locomotives and 12 cars and all but the trailing locomotive had derailed?
I heard that the curve had a speed limit of 79 mph and that the train was running 81 mph. Doesn't seem reasonable to me that 2 mph over should cause a derailment. That's not much margin of error.
Terry that is what the local news here is saying all cars off the track except the fallowing engine!
Drummer3 posted:Here is a cab-ride train video from Washington state I think may be similar to the one that crashed today. (not the same train) . Very cool tunnels.
Washington state train cab-ride
Nope. that's the Columbia River route, the former SP&S. Dupont is along the Puget Sound, very far from where that video was taken.
TM Terry posted:
Is it correct that the train was made up of two locomotives and 12 cars and all but the trailing locomotive had derailed?
Yes, only the trailing P42 stayed fully on the rails. As for the speed limit, I have no clue what the real speed limit there is for 79 is insane, as that's a very tight turn there!
mike g. posted:TM Terry posted:Is it correct that the train was made up of two locomotives and 12 cars and all but the trailing locomotive had derailed?
I heard that the curve had a speed limit of 79 mph and that the train was running 81 mph. Doesn't seem reasonable to me that 2 mph over should cause a derailment. That's not much margin of error.
Terry that is what the local news here is saying all cars off the track except the fallowing engine!
OK, lets try and clear-up this train make-up situation:
1) There was a powered diesel (a new one) in the lead, which obviously derailed on the OUTSIDE of the 30 MPH curve, and would up down below on the Interstate.
2) Apparently 12 Talgo type passenger cars (total seating capacity of about 250 people) with about 75 to 79 people on board.
3) There was also a powered diesel on the rear (an older GE unit). Both units are MU'ed through the train-line MU cables, so that no mater which end the Engineer is operating from, BOTH units are POWERING THE TRAIN. With that much horse power such trains can accelerate pretty quickly, in order to maintain timetable schedules.
Also, there have been reliable reports that the speed of the train under discussion was 81.1 MPH just prior to the 30 MPH curve where the derailment took place. Amtrak has also recently issued a statement that PTC was not yet operational in this area, and will not be in operation until next year.
Really distressing accident. In some sense, it was fortunate that only 77 or so passengers were on the train, it could hold something like 250.
The map below shows the south end of Puget Sound. The accident occurred near DuPont, There is a large military base, nearby.
The next google map is a satellite image, of the location (the exact place is noted in red.
Its fortunate that only the South bound lanes were impacted because the freeway separates.
Its going to take time to figure out what happened and clean up the area. I think its still very dangerous work.
CNN ought to be ashamed... their targeting of "no PTC on this line...". Guess what? That's standard for the whole **** country reporterette!
Jon 
Seems this derailment is very similar to Amtrak train 188 which was caused by excessive speed on a curve due to radio distraction. It'll be interesting to find out the experience of the crew on this one.
KOOLjock1 posted:CNN ought to be ashamed... their targeting of "no PTC on this line...". Guess what? That's standard for the whole **** country reporterette!
Jon
How many apologies has CNN made of late for wrong info??? SOP
Hot Water posted:Also, there have been reliable reports that the speed of the train under discussion was 81.1 MPH just prior to the 30 MPH curve where the derailment took place.
I'm not disagreeing with this being a likely 30MPH curve, as it's really tight. But where'd you see that this was the rated speed there?
As for the local problems, the issue with local impact really is more of a traffic issue. Where this happened is one of the worst bottlenecks along I-5. The only alternate route around an accident here is a 2-lane former portion of old highway 99. the backs up really fast and is a slow route.
Unlike other parts of the country, they laid the interstate on top of existing roads where they could. So that sometimes leave real alternate routes when there's something blocking I-5 here.
And oddly, accidents along this specific bottleneck are more common than in other places where you can more easily get around an accident scene. The locals always ask the same question when there's a big crash; why is it always right between Hawk's Prairie and the Joint Base gate?
FYI, Seattle Q13 has some decent ongoing real-time coverage: http://q13fox.com/2017/12/18/t...ut-down-near-dupont/
p51 posted:This train had locomotives at each end, which is unusual for a Cascades. A band new SC-44 Charger loco was on point, with a P42DC on the tail end. I have no idea if the Charger was running at the time or just being used as a control car for the pusher in the back...
I think the Charger was either a cabcar or providing minimal power to the train. They haven't gone system-wide yet and I think that they're still being tested, but tested in revenue service.
Amtrak local supervisor has stated that the Charger was the only powered engine, the P52 was non powered per Amtrak!
mike g. posted:Amtrak local supervisor has stated that the Charger was the only powered engine, the P52 was non powered per Amtrak!
Thank you for the correction. It appears that those ugly units will be taking over soon.
Source: AP
Gary
suzukovich posted:mike g. posted:uzukovich posted:Hey Lee, glad your alright. When it broke here and saw the pics, I knew it was going to be bad. They showed pics of the car that was crush sitting on the street . No way anybody in there survived. I was hoping that you were not on it or in that area taking pics. Seeing your post I know your alright. Seeing the engine I was wondering what happened to the new engines they had just taken delivery ..
Doug, don't know if you heard, but no one on the road was killed, all deaths were on the train.
The car that was crush was one of the passenger cars. I find it pretty amazing that car or trucks on the road didn't get hit. I remember in Germany when we had the real bad ICE derailment with a large loss of life. 4 of the cars hit the supports for the overpass and cause fatalities on the bridge that crossed the tracks.
Cars and trucks did get hit. There was just a picture on the news showing a tractor trailer that got hit.
rtraincollector posted:suzukovich posted:mike g. posted:uzukovich posted:Hey Lee, glad your alright. When it broke here and saw the pics, I knew it was going to be bad. They showed pics of the car that was crush sitting on the street . No way anybody in there survived. I was hoping that you were not on it or in that area taking pics. Seeing your post I know your alright. Seeing the engine I was wondering what happened to the new engines they had just taken delivery ..
Doug, don't know if you heard, but no one on the road was killed, all deaths were on the train.
The car that was crush was one of the passenger cars. I find it pretty amazing that car or trucks on the road didn't get hit. I remember in Germany when we had the real bad ICE derailment with a large loss of life. 4 of the cars hit the supports for the overpass and cause fatalities on the bridge that crossed the tracks.
Cars and trucks did get hit. There was just a picture on the news showing a tractor trailer that got hit.
Doug, I know cars and trucks got hit, but no one was killed on the interstate.
Looks like the engine took the hit pretty good.
Surefire posted:
Seems like this loco rolled. The aerial photos show roof top apparatus in the woods closer to the tracks. It is surprising that it stopped upright.
p51 posted:Hot Water posted:Also, there have been reliable reports that the speed of the train under discussion was 81.1 MPH just prior to the 30 MPH curve where the derailment took place.
I'm not disagreeing with this being a likely 30MPH curve, as it's really tight. But where'd you see that this was the rated speed there?
One of the news sites posted photos of the actual speed boards (two individual boards) at that specific curve, i.e. 30 MPH for F = Freight and 30 MPH for T = Talgo.
Watching the news and they just off loaded dozers with side arms to raise the cars and move them!
mike g. posted:Watching the news and they just off loaded dozers with side arms to raise the cars and move them!
Really, "side arms"? I'm sure you mean those special Cats with "Side Booms", that can lift almost ANYTHING.
Hot Water posted:One of the news sites posted photos of the actual speed boards (two individual boards) at that specific curve, i.e. 30 MPH for F = Freight and 30 MPH for T = Talgo.
I never saw the signs other than the freight speed signs near the block signals at the golf course, the others weren't near that one like they usually are...
Access to this requires an OGR Forum Supporting Membership
