Annoying Charging Problem

The battery charging circuit on the 3V board set is likely the issue.  Many times these can be fixed with component replacements, and in the worst case, the power supply board will have to be swapped.

gunrunnerjohn,

Is there something I can do to confirm your suspicion or do you need my train to troubleshoot the problem.

Well, in truth all I'd have to see is the board set.  That's in the engine, so unless you want to take it apart, I guess I'd have to see that.

Interesting question, have you looked closely at the tether?  Since the battery is in the tender, it could be a wiring issue.

Another question.  Is the battery really dying or just becoming discharged?  With a charged battery, does the unit go through a normal shutdown when you remove track power?

To answer your questions, the battery isn't dying, it's just discharging. But do you think that it is normal that after 2 full days of operation that the battery runs out of power? The tether also seems to be OK, no fraying or wires hanging out, just your normal, new tether. Also, where is the location of the charging board because when I opened the tender to replace the battery, (with a good battery) I noticed a small board that the speaker and battery wires were hooked up to and continued into the tether. Thanks for your help,

Nickstrains.

Yes, as GRJ says, see how a charged battery works to run a shutdown.

If you don't mind messing with the wiring to the battery, if the battery is not connected you should see 5V on the connector going to the battery.  This is tight quarters so you need to be careful not to short things.  If you don't mind splicing wires, you can insert a meter set to DC-current into the circuit and should see current flowing TO the battery when the engine is running, and then see the current flowing FROM the battery when track power is removed.

I assume the 3V board was put in the engine and the speaker and battery are in the tender.  The board you see in the tender is just a patch panel for the speaker, battery and lights/coupler in the tender.

To answer your question, no a battery should not die in a few days.  That means it us under a constant drain when running.  Normally, the battery is only discharged in the circuit for shutdown.

Did they install the 3V battery charge port?  If so, you can use a molex plug and attach the wire leads to a volt meter.  This gives you a safe method to measure the charging circuit.  The meter should read 2.5 volts (actual battery voltage).  Now apply power and voltage should go up to about 2.7 volts.  If it doesn't rise, or goes down the charging circuit is faulty.  Turn power off and shutdown sounds should play.  If they do, I know what components need to be replaced on the Power Supply board to restore functions.

I can repair your PS board if shutdown sounds play.  If shutdown sounds do not play, it still may be repairable, but in rare occasions it is a processor issue.  E-mail is in my profile.  G

The only real way to diagnose this 100% is to test the boards. 

Look at the actual PS2 board set.  The red circle shows where the battery eventually hooks into the charging circuit.  The connector is on the smaller or so-called power supply board of the 2-board PS2 set.  The two boards separate by carefully lift them vertically apart.  This can be a bit of a hassle as the harnesses and board-holder brackets can be finicky to work with if doing this for the first time.  Look at the parts in the corner of the power supply board (on top and bottom) where the battery connector is located.   Perhaps you might see a barbequed part or something obvious if you want to roll the dice on a DIY repair.

Otherwise, send the board(s) to either GRJ or GGG.  I'd recommend either of these 2 guys without hesitation.

One nice thing about the board set is all the connectors have different pin counts, so it's difficult (though not impossible) to get them plugged in wrong when you remove the connectors.  I also normally recommend taking the battery plug out first and plugging it in last.  I don't know that you'd have issues in a different sequence, but it just makes common sense not to have power of any sort on the board when plugging and unplugging connectors.

I find that rocking the two boards very slightly (and I do mean slightly) helps them separate.  If you just try to pull them apart, sometimes one connector will separate and they'll pivot and bend or break pins.  I've gotten several boards that needed pins replaced when they were pulled apart and got away.  Luckily, it's pretty easy to put in replacement pins.  

Personally, I'd rather remove the entire board package than jiggle it into separate parts.  Less chance of damage.  Just pul out the plugs, unscrew the bottom of the heat sink from the loco frame, and remove the 2 screws that pssibly hold the plastic carrier to the frame..

The charge port if installed is usually protruding under the frame where the battery is located.  In this case tender.  If the person upgrading did not install it under the frame, it may be located inside the tender shell.  The new PS-3 battery harness has the rectangular 3V charge port.

I would not try to separate the boards unless you have removed the assembly from the tender, than take off heat sink and black bracket that holds boards together and attaches to frame.  At that point you can try separating the board.  In many cases you won't see damage, when the battery circuit works accept charging.

Again, the critical test is does the engine play shutdown sounds with a new battery?  G

Thank you for all of your help. GGG, No they did not install a battery charging port on the bottom of the tender. Remember that this Dreyfuss is from 2000 and there wasn't a charging port at all when it was introduced. I would like to get an estimate from each of you the price (including shipping there and back) of A. a total board replacement, or B. a component(s) fix and shipping. Thanks

Nickstrains 

Ok, here is the deal. I tried a bcr2 in the Dreyfuss but it wouldn't charge after 5 min on the track. Is it possible to switch the charging board in the Dreyfuss with another 3v charging board? Just an idea to save money.

Nickstrains

Well, the power supply board is one of the 2 boards for the 3V set, that's the charging board.  It's frequently possible to repair the board for less than replacing it, but either is an option.

Thank you guys for all of your help. As a new member here, I truly appreciate the help and advice you have given me.

Nickstrains 

Nick, Does it play shutdown sounds when a battery is used?  That information bounds the problem.  If it does this is an easy fix.  G

Yes GGG, the shutdown sounds, with a charged battery, play as they should.

The boards should be tested, but 9 out of 10 times it is a simple component repair on the power supply to get the charging circuit to work.

The 1/10 times is a processor board failure to operate the circuit.

If moving the power supply to another processor has the problem move with it, than as stated I can repair this for you.  G

After doing a ton of research on the forum, I have concluded that it must be the charging circuit. Fortunately it's a 3v system so it's easy to fix. I will get it done by a pro. Thanks for all of your advice.

Nickstrains 

Still unknown to me, but don't get your hopes up.

Nick, GGG certainly does qualify as a pro, he's reasonable to deal with, and he has put some time in on this thread.

Thanks Robert.  Actually Nick, I am the pro, though I may not repair your board.  I am the one who reverse engineered the repairs and provided notes to MTH service.  The Tech notes are actually not accurate when it comes to the battery circuit.  Replacing the parts they recommend will lead you down a rabbit hole, and one item is obsolete.  Though I did a last buy and have a stock of those chips.  Good luck with the repair.  G

GGG, it's not that I don't trust you, but you are in VA and I'm in FL.  I'd rather not ship it. But if my repair guy can't do it, your #1 on my list.

New Development, the Hudson isn't switching directions. When I start her up, I get the norm for PS2, and when I go to switch directions, it dies. It also did this with a dead battery. Is this the charging board finally dying, or something worse?

If the battery isn't low, I don't see why a non-functioning charging circuit would matter.  Does the sound continue for 5 seconds if you cut power?  If it cuts right off, you may have a plug loose in a socket.

This is one reason why I don't buy off the internet.  It's just like buying a very new used Ford off a GM dealer's lot.  Why did/does the last owner want to get rid of it (and in case of car, switch brands)?  COuld well be to get rid of a headache.

No the sounds don't continue for 5 seconds after power is cut off. I even charged it for over an hour and it didn't do anything. I am really considering sending it to GGG for repair or replacement of the boards. Thanks RJR.

Nick,

Where in Florida are you located?

Nick, check that two plugs are properly seated:  one is the plug at the battery; the other is the plug where the battery cable plugs into the board.  If the battery is well-charged and sounds cut out immediately, there is either disconnect in that cable or a problem in the board.

Barry, I'm in Boca Raton.

RJR, I will check the plugs but I start her up, and when I tried to change directions the engine dies. The Charging circuit prior to this wasn't keeping the battery charged, but it did charge a little. Now it doesn't charge period.

Nick.  Don't try to change directions.  Just have the sound making noise, and then cut power to the track.  If battery is sufficiently charged, regardless of whether the charging circuit works, the sound should continue.  I have had plugs come loose, which I why I raise this point.

RJR, the sounds still continue with a charged battery. Might get it fixed soon. Where I'm not sure.

For this issue, you could probably send just the boards, it would be cheap to ship them and this issue is almost surely a board/battery issue.

If it plays shutdown sounds, but won't change direction, either the battery is still low charged or something else is going wrong.

PS-2 can change direction in fwd from neutral easily, but sometimes reverse won't work well on low battery because the relay has to be switched too.  This extra drain on the 5V system won't work reliably with a weak battery, sometimes too long a battery wire also can impact this (not an issue with factory engines).

You also need to be careful continuing to operate this with the current faults.  The processor board main processor controls the power supply battery feature.  It is unbuffered in the connection.  So a major fault can damage the main processor chip.  At that point the battery feature will no longer work.  I have 2 processors on my bench that have this damage, along with the 3 P0wer Supplies that the owners swapped in and out testing.  The PS can be repaired, but the processor can't.  G

Earlier you suggested sounds played with a charged battery but now they don't.  And apparently direction-change worked earlier and now it doesn't.  The more you operate it, the more things fail. So chiming in, the last thing you want is for a fault in the Power-Supply board to migrate to the Processor board!

I think it's time to pack-it-up and take-it or send-it to a pro.  As suggested earlier, you should be able to send just the 2-board set which ought to keep shipping costs down.  An MTH tech should have a diagnostic test-fixture that can run the boards without the physical engine. 

For anything that looks like a board related issue, I test those first to indite or eliminate them as the problem.  Once you know the boards are good, most possibilities are much easier to chase down.

OK, It's the tether. I pushed it in tight and it changed directions and the tether wiggled and the engine lost power(the shutdown sounds played, indicating that the battery had a charge). Could this all be the tether or just the loss of power? Really considering sending it to GGG.

It is not the whole issue.  The tether probably prevented motor power getting to the engine hence no movement despite the board changing direction.

Since this is a PS-2 upgrade with the boards in the tender with the battery, the tether is only used to get power from engine to the tender, and than everything else is controls to the engine.  Motor, Tach, lights, smoke.

Since battery is with tender and attached to board with it's own 2 pin harness, the engine tether has no effect on not charging battery.

This is back to making sense again.  So if you checked the battery harness as RJR recommended and it is all good and the battery doesn't charge right it is either a board issue or some other issue with the battery harness.

If you want you just can send the tender.  I can test repair boards as necessary and check out all your wiring in the tender to make sure it is ok.   G

GGG, The Hudson gets power from the engine and sends power through the tether to the battery. The Boards are in the Engine not the tender. That would explain the not being able to change direction. But I think that it could just be the tether. It isn't in good shape and the charging board looked OK. That would also explain why it charges the battery but cant keep charging and runs out of juice (AKA in my terms, Dies). Just wanted to confirm if I'm on the same page as you GGG. Nickstrains

Ok, I interpreted the first post about P-2 3V upgrade as an upgrade, so my assumption is wrong.

With the board in the engine and the battery in the tender the issue can be length of wire, but....since shutdown sounds play and the engine shifts direction in conventional the tender harness is probably ok when plugged in.

You can always meter our the tender harness between the wires for the battery in the tender to the 2 pin connector on the board in the engine for a high resistance, but again I think that would prevent shutdown sounds and direction change.  So I still think you have a bad Power Supply battery charge component.  G