Another derailment at Horseshoe Curve.

Maybe put those empty centerbeams in back of the train?

That's the second time in a few weeks that the empty center-beam cars have derailed on Horseshoe Curve, time to consider what they're doing wrong.

This is unbelievable! Once again some yardmaster put a bunch of light, empty flats on the head end! And the crew accepted that line-up! You CANNOT do that on a 1.7% grade on a 9-degree curve with THREE 6-axle units on the head end. They are capable of over 300,000 pounds of tractive effort.

Well, what changed? Those center beam cars have always made it up the Hill in the past. I wonder how much train they are hanging behind those flats? Is PSR perhaps doubling train tonnage? If so that would sure answer the question, wouldn't it?

What I don't get is why the faulty practice, whatever it is, wasn't changed after the last wreck.

In '67, '68, '69 at the time when those big auto-racks were coming into use the B&O had IIRC three or four wrecks on the Butler-Buffalo line (nee BR&P) pulling several empty auto racks off the inside of sharp curves. But there is no new equipment in use in these Pennsy wrecks.

Lew

Saw this posted on Facebook - the centerbeams are actually from the previous derailment.  Apparently some hoppers took a tumble this time.

geysergazer posted:

... Is PSR perhaps doubling train tonnage? If so that would sure answer the question, wouldn't it?...

I would bet that PSR had something to do with this.

I don't think the center beams were from a previous derailment, I watched the video of the train going by with the three center-beam cars right behind the engines.  Like I said, the second time for the same empty car type, time for someone to get their head out of the dark place!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsE9mOohSB8

gunrunnerjohn posted:

I don't think the center beams were from a previous derailment, I watched the video of the train going by with the three center-beam cars right behind the engines.  Like I said, the second time for the same empty car type, time for someone to get their head out of the dark place!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsE9mOohSB8

geysergazer posted:

Well, what changed? Those center beam cars have always made it up the Hill in the past. I wonder how much train they are hanging behind those flats? Is PSR perhaps doubling train tonnage? If so that would sure answer the question, wouldn't it?

 

It was a 107 car train, these should have been farther back I'd imagine.

Thanks John.  My original comment still stands then. 

Interesting that video tagged as Virtual Railfain but their webcam has been offline for days.   *update*  it is up with new URL

Yep, and on the "new" live video, the center-beam cars are still derailed.

Here is a better video. Great reaction from the tourists at the curve.

JohnB

It's like auto racing, they're all sitting around waiting for an event like this to happen!

Heavens, looks like my FUBAR when the grandchildren put light cars behind the loco... And no grade!

Who is putting these trains together??? Someone needs to take Uncle Toms' String-lining 101 course!! Dang... Heavy cars to the front, light cars to the rear. Doesn't anyone play with toy trains anymore???????????

If it's the same person as the last derailment, their job should be toast....

Tom, I think your 101  class is what I preach to my grandchildren!

We are all in a RUSH, RUSH, RUSH world and people are going to make mistakes and people are going to get hurt. It's the business always looking for the extra buck. Company will always talk safety but their really talking a line of BS.

Interesting. Thanks for posting the latest. The last derailment was slightly east (right) of the GP displayed at the Curve.  

Once again, Norfolk Southern was lucky that a second train was not involved.

Tom

Also, it looks like the same unceremonious outcome for these derailed center-beams as the last one, shoved down the embankment to be cut-up at a later date. 

Tom 

Well, now my string-lining is accurate prototype modeling, except for my much sharper curves!!

My wife and I just moved to Altoona, to be better centralized near our mixed family of children and grandchildren, back in June. The train action here is a lot more then I anticipated. I sure will be spending more time at the curve once I finish moving our furniture and my layout. The video of the reaction of the few people there was great. A day they'll never forget. Not only is this place a train lovers paradise, but Blair county just did an equalization of all the properties for "up to date" assessment value. Then lowered the millage rates. So the taxes here are a third of what we were paying in Carbon county. Good reason to live here if you love trains and are on a fixed income.

Dave,

Thanks for the good advice.

Tom

gunrunnerjohn posted:

gunrunnerjohn posted:

I don't think the center beams were from a previous derailment, I watched the video of the train going by with the three center-beam cars right behind the engines.  Like I said, the second time for the same empty car type, time for someone to get their head of the dark place!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsE9mOohSB8

geysergazer posted:

Well, what changed? Those center beam cars have always made it up the Hill in the past. I wonder how much train they are hanging behind those flats? Is PSR perhaps doubling train tonnage? If so that would sure answer the question, wouldn't it?

 

It was a 107 car train, these should have been farther back I'd imagine.

 

Tnx! So train length not the issue, leaving the position of the spine cars in the train. You'd think in the age of computer controls a flag would appear if an improper consist is made up.

Lew

Ain't it amazing that train-makeup rules that model railroaders obey seem to be unknown in the real world?

Cleanup of the previous derailment here.  "The cause is under investigation."

I didn't know that Horseshoe Curve was O-27... 

Mitch

Guessing it has to do with no yard crew available to redrill or reblock the train before it left. 

CSX does actually have a rule about no empty centerbeams cannot be in the head 30 positions of a train if so many cars are behind. 

Chris,

for folks like me who don't know yard operations, what is redrill and reblock?

Thanks.

That is railroad speak for switching cars into a proper order to put into a train. We would take similar cars from an inbound train switch them by destination and commodity into an out bound train (a block).  Usually a block would consist of all auto parts cars, auto racks, cement cars or a solid string of tank cars,  Doug

Ya, from the [online] CSX Railroad Dictionary (who knew there was such a thing):

LEW

Now you know the drill. 

saw this posted on facebook this weekend.........

shurlock1 posted:

We are all in a RUSH, RUSH, RUSH world and people are going to make mistakes and people are going to get hurt. It's the business always looking for the extra buck. Company will always talk safety but their really talking a line of BS.

OK, I'll bite. How do you make the "extra buck" after paying the costs of cleaning up the wreck, causing delays to other trains and possibly paying out damage claims?

Looks more like negligence by those responsible for making up the train rather than some company policy to make a so-called "extra buck"

Maybe they are like other RR's and have eliminated many train make up rules because it takes too long for the yard jobs to build the trains properly according to those rules. Remote control jobs especially "simply do not have time to switch those cars out!"

As you see trains get bigger and bigger, expect to see it more often. 

dkdkrd posted:

It is the new way of doing business.  My employer has a set policy of ONLY hiring managers who have ZERO experience in the field.  And the high paid idiots at headquarters wonder why we are always dead last in all rankings.  Dumb!!!!!

"4 Days without a derailment!"

Lehigh Valley Railroad posted:

CSX does actually have a rule about no empty centerbeams cannot be in the head 30 positions of a train if so many cars are behind. 

Aha!  There you have it.  

Maybe the crew picked up these cars at a blind siding and violated train make-up instructions, but I will put my money on some yard Official who authorized an exception to the rule, in order to get the train out of his yard.  As Laidoffsick pointed out, it is very time-consuming to switch a train into compliance using two Switchmen and remotely controlled equipment.  And . . . Precision Scheduled Railroading measures car velocity.

Q:  Where's all the legacy railroad knowledge?  A:  Retired, staying cool on hot days and warm on cold days.

yup

Odd that 90 mentioned legacy railroading, and behold two things are on the net.

We are seeing two sequel shows:  STAR TREK: PICARD,  and TOP GUN: MAVERICK.  Is there now some sort of concern overall that we need to "go retro" to solve problems?

The car positioning here is a small issue.  Now, all the issues which caused the wreck of the Amtrak Cascade train looks like the rail version of the Max8.

We have gone from Apollo 13 to FAILURE IS THE ONLY OPTION.

Nick I understand. I just see how companies push their workers. By pushing their workers to get more done in eight hours. More mistakes can be made such as wrecks and injuries by rushing to get done in 8 hours.