Another missed DCS Watchdog thread

So I posted my question before I did enough research.  What I never realized is a PS3 conventional reset is similar (or the same) as a feature reset.  I isolated my problem by turning off the DCS signal from the TIU.  When I applied power to the track, the K4 moved forward immediately.  I tried the 1 Whistle and 5 Bells reset with the DCS handheld but that didn't work.  In fact, I could not even get the bell to ring that way.  I reenabled the DCS signal and then went into the advanced menu and selected the engine feature reset.  I reset everything, turned the DCS signal off again, powered up and the K4 powered up with sound but didn't move.  So I guess, it was locked in conventional forward.  Really not good when you power on with 18v as the default on your rails.

I still don't understand why the watchdog signal is so flaky.  When I test DCS signal, I have 10 all the way around the loop with the exception of 1 switch.  I also have no issues running TMCC/Legacy on the same layout.  I've tried powering the TIU with several different power supplies, but there seems to be no difference with any of them.

It's really frustrating when your $1000 engine is crashing into rolling stock.  And even more frustrating when you have to get the glue out to fix things.  

Not to change the subject, but there is another observation I have with the watchdog signal.  Maybe it's just coincidence, but it seems when I have 2 engines together in a lashup, the missed watchdog happens more often.

I am hoping someone can shed a bit of light on this.  

Tony

One big basic fact about the watchdog signal.

It is only present for appox. 30 seconds after the power is applied to the channel, if the engine is powered up on a siding after time out, it will will start up in conventional mode. 

That is a pretty big fact that I wasn't aware of.  Explains part of my issue.  I added a relay to shut power off to a siding.  In another post here (quite a while ago), I was told that as long as a DCS engine has voltage to it the chronometer is counting.  So the idea was to interrupt the power to keep the hours low.  

So the way I have my layout setup, I run my PW ZW into each of the variable channels.  When I use older engines, I use the ZW handles to adjust the voltage to the max I want and then use the DCS remote and variable channel for fine adjustment.  When I use a PS2, PS3 engine, or even Legacy, I just run the ZW at full throttle.  

So first, I guess based on what you said I can't just turn on the siding.  There will be no watchdog signal unless I enable it prior to the 30 second time out.  

Does a channel need to have power interrupted for a certain period of time before the watchdog will run again?

Thanks for the info.

Tony

From what I have read here on the forum the conventional reset seems to be different than anything you can do through DCS using the remote. However, I have never been clear on what the differences are? Maybe someone can clarify? 

I have all PS3 engines (one PS2, but it hasn't been out of it's box in over 3 years) and I don't recall ever having this happen to one of them so far. However, I seldom use Lash-Ups, 99% of the time I run single engines by themselves on every train on the layout. I have only fiddled with the Lash-Up features a few times.

FWIW, my layout is wired per the DCS Companion's recommendations and I have not had any DCS problems with it since it was constructed. Before that I had a few temporary layouts that I thought were too small to matter (4'x6' - 4'x7' or so in size) and I did not follow the recommended wiring. They always had occasional DCS problems of some sort. Made a believer out of me! 

The channel only has to go to "0" for ms, then the watchdog signal returns for the time period. 

Turning off the sidings is good practice to keep the hours down on your engines. When you turn on the siding select the engine before you turn it on and then hit either the Start-Up or Shut-Down keys on the remote and you will put the engine into command mode.

I do the same thing as you do with all of my sidings and there is usually a bit of a lag before the engine starts up in conventional mode so I have a few seconds to push the proper button on the remote. I believe the super caps have to charge before a PS3 engine will come up in conventional mode.

Also I think the watchdog signal is sent out every time the power is cycled on is't respective TIU channel. There was a thread a while back about the DCS Remote Commanders and they only send the watchdog signal for around 1 second or so I believe it was, but the TIU is a different beast and I have always heard what ChooChooPaul said above about the TIUs, around 30 seconds or so.

If you don't have the DCS Companion book (aka Barry's book) I would recommend it to all DCS users. Lots of good info in there about DCS and lots of things that are not in the manual. It's well worth the price.

Edit - Paul, you posted while I was trying to add the power cycling part. I didn't know how long it took though. 

One more edit - Here's the thread about the DCS Remoote Commander, the watchdog signal and the device that gunrunnerjohn and Stan2004 came up with, then GRJ made some of the devices for forum members and has posted the needed files so we can get our own PCBs and make more. Proposed Solution to DCS Watchdog in Yard Tracks. Very interesting thread and well worth reading if you are interested in this kind if stuff.

I have Barry's book although it's the second edition.  I did follow the home run wiring methodology but I do combine all of the common lines on the terminal block.  In other words, I the black of both variable outputs is connected to a common terminal block.  I've done this so that Lionel TMCC works on all tracks with a single wire.  I am not sure how I would connect TMCC if I couldn't have all the commons together.

Thanks for the replies, all really good info!

Tony 

I was fortunate that I got an extra TIU for my 3 rail loop. I used channels 1 and 2 fixed for the loop. I put a simple switch in the hot wire jumped from a TIU channel's input, and connected that to channel #2 variable input. I set that to "fixed" with the remote. I then took the output to the siding.

 So whenever I throw that switch, it powers the TIU variable 2 channel and sends the signal to parked engines there. Might have been able to do that with the remote too?

I would suggest to look at buying older TIUs that are for sale if needed. You can use them to power extra sidings and just put a light bulb at the TIU output or far end of the siding.

I think what you have with the commons sounds fine. This was pointed out to me by forum member RJR that all the common rails are connected together, which is basically a bus anyway. I have my Legacy system tied to the common outputs of my TIU which I have jumpered all together at the TIU. Same thing you are doing on your terminal block. 

I got some of the watchdog devices from GRJ that he made, but have not yet installed them. I am making some layout changes, but can't do them until my gantry crane tracks arrive. I was expecting the tracks last week, but they never arrived so I'm still waiting...maybe this week.  

Yep Ps-3 seems to be a different ballgame when it comes to a feature ,factory ,or conventional  reset.    The fix for me  would  be to get the engine to power up in neutral in convention mode  with no dcs.    It's at least not going to take off.

I like Joes idea of a toggle on the input side of the tiu  channel  just in case one needs the Watch dog.(lash-ups)

After throughly testing with single engines, I switched back to the lashup.  My power up procedure went like this:

I powered up the TIU with the ZW with only the TIU power at 18v. (using the ZW for everything at this point)
I then raised the track voltage to max for the track the lashup is on.

Immediately the K4 starts up in what appears to be conventional mode and 80% of the time the SD70 stays off.  The other 20% of the time the SD70 also powers up in what appears to be conventional mode.  They will respond to shutdown but when re-started the lashup is in a funky state.  Typically the K4 appears to be working normally but won't respond to the throttle.

I then used the DCS remote to zero the track voltage and then raise it back to 18v.  Everything stays dark and responds properly to the startup command.

Finally, I left the ZW at 18v for both the TIU power and track power.  Powering up everything at the same time keeps the engines dark and they respond normally.

So, I can only assume there is an issue with raising the ZW power with the handles because that is the only scenario that produces the bad results.  Strange thing is, that is the way I was doing it with the single units with no issues.

Tony

I like Joes idea of a toggle on the input side of the tiu  channel  just in case one needs the Watch dog.(lash-ups)

There's a way that doesn't involve any additional switches. From page 172 of The DCS Companion 3rd Edition:

If a DCS engine comes up in conventional mode for any reason, the DCS operator has two options. If the operator desires that the engine be dark and silent, waiting for a DCS Start Up command to be issued, all that's required is to select the DCS engine using the Engine Control Screen and press the Shut Down key. The engine will become dark and silent in DCS stealth mode, waiting for a future Start Up command. 

If, however, the operator desires to put the engine into DCS command mode and then operate it, all that's required is to select the DCS engine using the Engine Control Screen and press the Start Up key. 

DCS engine lashups, however, are the exception to this rule. If a lashup misses seeing the watchdog signal, pressing Start Up has no effect. For DCS lashups to come up in DCS mode, it's necessary to do one of two things. The first is to power off the TIU channel to which the tracks where the lashup resides are connected. Then, if there's a toggle switch that controls the siding or track block where the lashup resides, this switch must be turned on before turning on power to the TIU channel to which the tracks are connected. Power must then be turned on quickly enough that the lashup catches the watchdog signal. The second is to first highlight the engine in the remote's Active or Inactive Engine list. Then, turn on the toggle switch and immediately press the thumbwheel to select the engine. It will come up in DCS stealth mode, dark and silent. This also works with individual DCS engines. 

As previously stated, this can present problems when power to TIU Tracks or Z4K Tracks is increased using the thumbwheel on the DCS Remote. The way to avoid this problem is by setting the minimum starting voltage for a TIU Track or Z4K track to a voltage high enough that track voltage can be raised to that voltage by one click of the thumbwheel when scrolling up power. This will ensure that all DCS engines that are on the track being powered up will see the watchdog signal. (This procedure is explained in detail in Part V - Advanced Features and Functions, 2. Z4K Tracks, Z4K and TIU Tracks and the Watchdog Signal, earlier in this book.) 

This and a whole lot more is all in “The DCS Companion 3rd Edition!" This book is available from many fine OGR advertisers and forum sponsors, or as an eBook or a printed book at OGR’s web store!

Barry,

Thanks for weighing in on this.  When I was having the issue with the lashup, I tried the procedure you outline in your book.  It didn't work in my case.  I believe the cause is what you describe in your last paragraph above.  But in my case, because I was raising the power manually with the ZW handles, it appeared that at least my K4 would get in some sort of weird state.  I could shut it down with the remote, start it back up with the remote but it would not respond to the throttle.  The way I started figuring out what the issue was was to set MTV to 11 and then use the DCS remote to zero and then bring up the power.  Everything came up fine that way. 

Powering the TIU with the ZW (C-U at 18v) and leaving the track throttles at max on the ZW, everything seems ok when I power up so that is the way it is staying for now.

The part that baffles me is that a single engine worked fine when raising the track voltage manually with the ZW handles but the lashup did not.  And I used both engines I have in the lashup independently before trying the lashup.

Now somewhat of an unrelated question regarding the siding.  In another thread here, you discuss using a DCSRC inline with the switched siding power specifically to add the watchdog when power is applied.  My question, will the DCSRC inline attenuate the DCS signal from my TIU?  In my mind the $50 or so is great insurance so if I can add it with no ill effects, it's a no brainer.  Power up, get the watchdog from the DCSRC, address the engine with the DCS remote and go.  Also I usually have more than 1 engine on my siding so addressing the engine while powering up doesn't work for me all the time.

Thank you all for your feedback.

Tony

Tony,

But in my case, because I was raising the power manually with the ZW handles, it appeared that at least my K4 would get in some sort of weird state.

I have that exact same situation with a Premier PS3 Shay.

My question, will the DCSRC inline attenuate the DCS signal from my TIU?

In my experience, no, it will not cause any ill effects.

Barry,

Thanks again!

Tony

I realized I didn't need a DSCRC at all for my setup.  I had a completely unused TIU channel (Fixed2) so I decided to wire the siding in passive mode to Fixed2.  Works like a charm!  When the relay for the siding energizes, the siding now gets the watchdog signal and all is good.  

I also decided to lock my engines in conventional neutral just in case.  The Premier K4 was still giving me issues so I decided to do a factory reset of it.  That cured it's issues as well.  I triple checked everything bringing all engines up in conventional and making sure they didn't move.

Tony