Any one ever wonder

I'm not sure he'd be happy. His vision of the business is VERY different than what it is today.  Lionel trains were not cheap in there day.....I know my folks bought Marx for me and they made 'good' money.  But I'm not sure he would sign off on $2K Big Boys.

I recall reading about Joshua and Lawrence Cowan at the '39 World's Fair. Besides the scale display in the Railroad Hall, there was a smaller display of a toy train layout in another Pavilion. The old man was proud of the sturdiness of his product, while the son worried about eventual turnover. It's not the price that would upset the old man, it's the fact that this new stuff doesn't last as long as the old.

The hobby, or pastime, as the case may be, can still be viewed as one for kids.  Sure, there are VERY, VERY expensive, and very complicated systems (to operate and run).  It traverses the gamut of hobbyists, both young and old.  I think, from a business point of view, the founders of Lionel would be pleased.  Why not?  The hobby is still relatively strong, despite all the competition from the instant gratification required by today's society.  There is joy in creating a railroad, its accessories, and running it in a fashion that  has many possibilities to satisfy just about everyone. 

And then some. In '36 Gold was $35/oz and today it is $1330 or about 35 times so that $75 Hudson would price out at $2,625 using Gold as a benchmark to gauge inflation.

No, nowaday's dads bond with their kids while texting each other at the dinner table...

Rusty

I think Lionel trains have always cost the average worker a week's pay or more since they first came out. They have never been inexpensive. With the new Lion Chief sets, they may have never been more affordable than they are today. These are less expensive than their traditional sets. That looks to me like a good way for parents and kids to bond without having to sell the farm, so I think they really are promoting that and trying to get new folks into the hobby on a budget.

Also think JLC and company would be very impressed with the new and modern electronic offerings. These are probably more than they ever imagined. As far as where they are made, if the bottom line was good, I doubt they would have cared a great deal. Although they probably wouldn't like the manufacturing overseas because of the lack of control they would have compared to being able to just go down to the factory line and check things like they were used to in the old days. Major undertaking to tour the factory now.

As for the new $2000 BB's, I don't think they were ever intended for the masses. They are made for just a small group of folks. I'm not in that group, but I think they are trying to offer something for everyone from low to middle to high end. This probably wouldn't be the item you would purchase for your kid for their first train. Unless you happen to be very fortunate and can afford it, that is.

OK.  Back in the early 50's around the time I was born, my dad made around $1.50 an hour at the generating plant.  That's a little over 3 grand a year.  60 bucks a week, before taxes.  His 51 Chevy cost around $700.00-$800.00 or so.

For reference: minimum wage in 1952 was raised to 75 cents/hour from 65 cents/hour.

Add in 2 kids, mortgage, and a wife who worked part time in the evenings making close to minimum wage.

Explain to me how a even a basic $20.00 O27 starter set or a $25.00 623 switcher is affordable on 60 bucks a week...

Even a $5.00 freight car is expensive on $60.00 a week.

Rusty

Okay, this opened up a can of worms for me.  When I started my career in 1964, I was making $1.50 per hour, just 60 bucks a week.  Now, I have retired, after 50 years, my wife put me on an allowance of 60 bucks a week.  So much for getting ahead in life.  

quote:

As I said Lionel was not cheap.....but the Hudson was VERY expensive in it's day

Yes, the scale Hudson was very expensive. Still, I've read that the 700E Hudson was less expensive than the other "O" scale engines with which it was competing.

....such as....???

I guess I never realized that Mr. Cohen was of Italian decent.

quote:

....such as....???

I'll have to see if I can find the material.

See page 149 of "All Aboard" by Ron Hollander.

This page is focused on the scale hudson, in which Mr Hollander states: "Comparable models made by small, low volume companies cost several hundred dollars."

In 1949 the train set I got for Christmas was $29.95. Included in that set was an oval of track, a 1033 transformer, a small steam engine with tender, gondola with a barrel load, a Sunoco tank car and a caboose. That was Lionel's lowest priced set. They also had two Scout sets for $15.95 and $18.95. Their most expensive set was a 2-8-4 pulling 3 Pullmans with No transformer! I'm sure my dad worked many hours to afford my train set. I don't know how long it would have taken him for that passenger set which was 2 1/2 times the price of mine. Using that equation from an earlier post about the price of gold, my set would cost about $1050 today. You can buy a lot of fine remote sets for that price today! So, I think that Mr. Cohan would be pleased that his train line can still be had by most folks, just not all the models. 

The price of gold is not a realistic measure of the relative value of money in the 50's versus today. The domestic price of gold was controlled at $42.00/ounce; today it is a free market and demand has skyrocketed due to industrial uses and increasing affluence in formerly poor countries such as China and India. The price of gold fluctuates widely due to speculation and currency panics. There are economic statistics websites that can provide a realistic comparison of the purchasing power of the dollar then and now. 

Southwest Hiawatha,

You are right. I think I have a better gauge. My 1949 Lionel catalog has the #97 Coal Station for $15.75. In 2001, (the latest catalog it was in), it retailed at $159.95. That is a little over 10 times the price. That would make my '49 set go for about $299.95.

The Lionel R-T-R catalog has about 5 sets for $299.95 or lower.

The Gold inflation benchmark works for me. It is pretty close to all of the rest of the benchmarks.  If anything it is a little low because of the derivatives being introduced into the precious metals markets. If things were allowed to level out the Gold inflation index would be closer to the 50x inflation figure if you use median house prices of $4,000/1936 and ~$200,000+ (a lot+ around here) today. All in all you can get a pretty good idea of where inflation has gone using the gold price as a baseline. If you like something else you are quite free to use whatever figures you want and also to believe any figures you come up with.

I believe the word would be "Wow."

Rusty

I think he would be blown away, and in a good way. He was a genius, well ahead of his time, and I think he would be very proud of the products of today (and that includes all O-Gauge manufacturers as it all started with him).

I think he would be pleased to see his product still running and revered. Not saying the new stuff isn't good, but the trains built during his time running the company have held up quite well.

Gilly

Mostly if he were alive today he'd be proud of the job that has been done with the innovation, suprised at the prices we pay, proud of the fact that it has grown so much, and somewhat disappointed that we have let production go overseas.

If he were alive today, he'd do what he could to get production back to the USA. As far as being proud of the fact that it has been a father-son thing that's what his mission was, to build a kinship bond between father and sons and daughters.

He would be proud of the fact that the OGR Forum exists, I am sure he would be a supporter and I am **** sure he would be front and center at York and at all the other toy train shows!

I ,for one, miss his influence and hands on involvement! I am sure that he looks in on each one of us now and then and smiles!

Thanks, Josh!

Mike Maurice

 "but I also think they might lament that most kids are priced out from having one and that the hobby isn't about dads and their sons or daughters bonding as much as it used to--"

Absolutely wrong...

My son and both my daughters run trains as much as we can! The plug and play industry that the big 4 have instituted with all the animation has increased the play value 10 fold.

Instead of a Holiday occurrence, trains can be up and running year round, and with today's tools, a layout can be made in a lot less effort.

Never was this available in the late 30's.

Well, if you use the US inflation calculator http://www.usinflationcalculator.com/ with the Hudson price of $75.00 in 1936 as mentioned earlier, it works out to $1283.63 in 2014 dollars which is still a lot of money even today; particularly when you consider the US was still in the throes of the Depression in 1936/1937.  Those were hard times for almost everyone and "disposable" income for anything that wasn't a definite necessity probably wasn't even thought about.

That is pretty close to the MSRP of a top of the line scale Hudson now. Of course, today's Hudson is made in China, has twice the detail of a 700E, and has all kinds of electronic goodies - but that's evolution for you. 

J Daddy,

Great.  Enjoy!

  George

I thought the first year of the scale Hudson was 1937. Was it available in 1936?

Geez, I saw Hudson for $75 and thought that seemed low for a new automobile in the late '30's.

Then I realized it was the Lionel 4-6-4 that was $75.

Talk about yer O-gauge guys who are car nuts....

If I remember what I read about Cohen, he clearly viewed the trains Lionel made as toys, marketed for kids and their parents to enjoy together. And, if we look at the history of The Lionel Corporation (and other train/toy makers), that business model turned unprofitable starting in the later 1950s. I often wonder what would have become of Lionel if, in 1955, the company started offering “Ready to Run” and “Signature Edition” catalogs. 

The model train industry – no matter what gauge – has always lived with a double identity: toys aimed at kids, and models aimed at hobby enthusiasts. 

It seems to me that J.L.C. was a “toy guy” first, not unlike his counterparts Gilbert and Marx. I think all of them would be somewhat disappointed in the type of toys offered to kids today. I think they would really, really like the cool trains that are out there – but they would be disappointed that kids aren’t quite as interested in them.

IMHO their biggest mistake was dropping the OO line after WWII, and/or not getting established into the HO market sooner.  With the attention to detail they did in the OO line and developing a similar line of HO products they could have further established themselves as serious scale model contenders that was growing at the time, and this diversification might have helped to offset the losses that were mounting in their O gauge line and still keep that line going, albeit adjusted for the shrinking market developing at the time.

As it is, their HO line was a day late, dollar short approach so to speak, and since they essentially abandoned their entry into the scale model market and focusing on toy trains almost exclusively, and I think that generated a bit of a stigma resulting in their HO efforts not really being taken all that seriously (the whimsical operating cars & accessories in their HO line not helping much either; I don't know of anyone who's into HO and are into helicopter launching cars and so forth).

According to my 1940 Lionel catalog, the 700EW, complete with whistle controller and walnut stand was cataloged at $65.00

The 700KW kit version with whistle was $56.75

The 700K kit version, without the whistle was $52.25

The kit could have also been purchased in six different parts (including the whistle).

1937 was what I've always read in various publications & videos.  I believe modern-era Lionel even references that year as the first original release of the 700e.

Gang of Italians?  Is there a RICO case involved