Anyone have info on 3rd Rail "Early Challenger"?

Interesting questions - which ones will affect your purchase decision?

If you like the early Challenger, the 3rd Rail is about as good as you will get.  I believe they were produced after the change to bronze axle gears, which means they are good runners.

bob2, 

Do you own one?

Details like the bronze axle bushings are the specifics of this engine I want to know.  Thank you.

I did learn it came with TMCC and Railsounds 4.  I would be interested to know how well it smokes if anyone has information.

As far as purchase decisions, I've already decided to buy one, just haven't been able to find one. I'd probably update the sound with some speakers and some other stuff.

Thanks!

Just some general info about the UP Challengers, The "Early" Challengers were originally numbered in the "3900" class, starting with the 3900 as the class locomotive. The early Challengers were often refered to as "3800"s because later they were re#'d to the 3800 series when the "Late" Challengers came along. The Late Challengers Started their numbering with the 3950 IIRC. As far as I know, All Challengers were delivered as dirt burners (coal fired). Union Pacific would then renumber them into the "3700" series if they were converted to oil firing. This could get really confusing, if you were trying to follow a particular locomotive through it's lifetime, because UP didn't just change the second digit(either 8 or 9) to a 7 seven when converting to oil burning, but they would asign an entirely new # to the locomotive. For example, IIRC the 3977 became the 3710 when converted from coal to oil. This may have been because UP having a total of 105 Challengers, they couldn't just assign each locomotive a unique last 2 digit # without any duplications.

 The box label in your pics show options for Coal or Oil versions, and four different Cab#'s available. The listed cab#'s are all either 3800 or 3900 class locomotives, which should have all been dirt burners. It is possible that one of those #'s may have been accurate for a SHORT period of time, as I don't know if each locomotive was renumbered IMMEADIATELY when converted between Coal and Oil firing.

The above info is accurate to the best of my knowledge, but someone such as Hot Water maybe able to correct or add to what I have posted.

 I have looked at (and Drooled over) that early Challenger in 3rd Rail's Boneyard myself. I would Love to have it, just that little issue of MONEY keeps coming up, just too many other priorities in the budget.

Doug

Doug,

Thank you for the information! I've been doing some research on the real Challengers and you are right, confusing in some ways.  Thanks for making the numbering simple to understand.

Gary,

Thanks for the reply!  I just watched a youtube clip of it, looks fantastic.  Very smooth!  

Honestly, I really want this a little more than a VL Big Boy because it is so unique.  

I hope to find one for about what you paid.  

Thanks for all the information guys!

I learned this week there are plates on the underside that say "# of 250"

I am not sure if that is 2 & 3 rail total production(?)

There is a 2 rail version on e-bay for sale.  If it was cheaper, I might consider buying it and converting to 3 rail.

Hi,  I have an early Challenger, with the headlight on the boiler, but it is a Delaware and Hudson. It is 3rd rail, I bought it when Scotts father was still answering the phone at the service dept.  He helped me with an issue where it was not turning well because the front pilot was rubbing. It has TMCC , rail sounds 4 and a poor working smoke unit. It does run really well since the pilot was adjusted. I have no idea how many were made but I have not seen another one for sale for a very long time. Love the detail on it and the accuracy
cheers

These engines were very common on the LA&SL in the 1930's through the late 1940's  Oil burners, of course.  They were most often photographed on trackage rights on Cajon Pass, as most of the LA&SL was way off the railfan radar, being almost entirely remote desert east of Dagget.

I have looked numerous times at that one for sale on the 3rd Rail Boneyard.  My uncle ran them for years, and so I have a soft spot for them.  However, I have a west Texas layout and just cannot justify a UPRR articulated.

As I said, I have a soft spot for that engine.  I figured that, if I bought it, the first order of business would be to have Chuck Sartor upgrade it with Electric Railroad electronics.  It's a rare locomotive and not a low-budget way to get into brass ownership.  It's like buying a Jaguar.  The purchase price is only part of the price of ownership.

More on the prototypes: the Early and more familiar late Challengers had very little in

common beyond the wheel arrangement and operational goals. There were far more

than "changes" between the two designs; they even had different designers, so far

as I know. 

Fun Fact:

The Earlies actually outlasted the Lates, not to bend the facts too much. From what I understand, the UP stored many/most of the Earlies carefully with an eye to using them again - they were "laid up good", as they say. By the time the Lates were stored, the diesel handwriting was on the wall and many/most were stored poorly protected. A few years later (late 1950's, I believe) the UP was experiencing a traffic rush and was short on power and looked to see which steamers could be re-activated to fill the gap, and, lo and behold, more Earlies were useable than Lates. So the Oldies turned out to be the Goodies,

mostly.

Wouldn't an Early have looked good on excursions - with the 3895?

Guys,thanks for all the info.  I really enjoyed reading about your personal experiences and info I didn't know about these engines.

I am really kicking myself for not bidding on the 2 rail one that was on e-bay a few weeks ago.  I plan on converting some 2 rail engines to 3 and have no idea why I didn't put a bid in on the Early Challenger.  It is the only one I've come across.

Did the Delaware and Hudson or Clinchfield Early Challengers look different to the UP version?  Anyone know?  Can someone post pictures?

Maybe I could locate one of them and convert it to my needs.  If I can't, I'll look for a 'modern challenger'and do all the modeling to convert it.  That'll be quite a project so I'd like to find an early challenger.

Thanks again!

May I suggest that you purchase the book CHALLENGER, by William Kratville. It should be available from Rons Books, or maybe Amazon, and should provide you with more information than you could possibly need.

Thanks Hot Water, I'll do that.  Appreciate you pointing me in the right direction.

I knew there had to be a book or something out there I was missing, thanks for the help.

You may not be aware that there has been a Sunset/3rd Rail Union Pacific "early Challenger" (road number 3949) currently for sale on eBay for, what seems like a VERY long time. It is a 3-Rail model, however and in my opinion the seller has been asking a bit too much. It is item #360859969532, and has no bids, as usual. May you can "make him an offer"?

No, I wasn't, but will look into it.

By the way, I already ordered the book!

Thanks again!

You are doing the right thing.  I have owned that book for a very long time, and use it all the time for reference.

Do not bother converting a 2- rail to 3 - it is much cheaper and in fact easier to find one originally built for three rail.  And I would advise not attempting to convert a modern, or Jabelmann, Challenger into an early, or Fetters, Challenger.  About the only thing the two locomotives have in common is the wheel arrangement.  Even the drive wheels and side rods are different.  You will see, when your book arrives.

The D&H and Clinchfield early Challengers are quite similar to each other, but vastly different from their UP counterparts.  NP also had a version of the early Challenger - to the best of my knowledge, that one was only available in O Scale prior to WWII.

I was trying to post some photos for you, but the system kicked me off.  Here is the last of three - an ancient 2-rail D&H:

Here is the first - a pre-WWII model of the "Fetters" Challenger:

And the second - a 1950 model of the "Jabelmann" Challenger:

I have several of each UP type, and one each D&H and NP.  A lot of Challengers around here.

I don't know whether the Northern Pacific Challengers would be classed as "early" or not, but Sunset/3rd Rail rail offered both the NP Z-6 and Z-8 Challengers, not that many years ago in 3-Rail and 2-Rail. I have a Sunset/3rd Rail, 3-Rail NP Z-8, and it is one of my very best runners. Obviously the NP Challengers look nothing like the UP Challengers.

"Early" might be incorrect for NP.  This one uses UP main frames and boiler, with a different firebox and domes.  Lobaugh did this one in 1939, and I tried to copy it using as many original parts as possible, but adheringnmore faithfully to availble drawings.  What I would call "late" had an enclosed cab and a centipede tender.  Sorry, not an NP expert.

the  U.P. "small" or Fetters 4-6-6-4's were all delivered as coal burners numbered  3900-3939.  The later large 4-6-6-4's were delivered as coal burners except 3975-3984 were built as oil burners for Northwest Passenger train service and painted

two-grey colors. Later in life, the oil burners were renumbered 3700' so dispatchers

would know if the engine was coal or oil.

Bob2 that is a Beautiful looking Challenger , Just amazing.

Thanks.  If you look very carefully, you can see that it has a round boiler with no slots, and a complete throat sheet.  It also has two Pittman motors in that giant firebox, driving both engines independently through concentric worm shafts hidden behind the frames.  I was going to patent the idea, but that was before I became a patent attorney and discovered how expensive patents have become.

Tender, by the way, is a wood block.  I have the proper PSC trucks for it, but haven't gotten around to assembling them.

that's a real nice job that you have done on the locomotive.  For what its worth, I have the headlight from 4-6-6-4 #3830.  I have it in my layout room with the side numbers lit.

-----Original Message-----



From: O Gauge Railroading On Line Forum



Sent: Feb 15, 2014 3:53 PM



To: mobyduck



Subject: Reply By bob2: Anyone have info on 3rd Rail "Early Challenger"?

Been waiting to update when my "Challenger" book arrived.  Should of been here by now, guess I'll have to check why it hasn't arrived.  Funny thing is, the "Big Boy" book arrived a few days after ordering both at the same time.  UGH, something else to track down...

Anyhow, bob2, I love the pictures!  You have some talent to be able to do that type of modeling.  Fantastic work! Thank you for making the effort to post the pictures.  I really enjoyed them and thanks for teaching me something.

Took suggestions and have been studying photos on utah rail:  I didn't truly realize how different the Fetters and Jabelmann Challengers really are.  Look forward to my book arriving so I can get more details.

Here you go - exactly what you want?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/SUNSET...;hash=item56624019bb

Yes it is!  Thanks. 

This must have been just listed, I checked earlier today and didn't see it.