Anyone know about N&W 1218’s restoration?

SDIV Tim posted:

Does anyone know if 1218 is getting restored?

I seriously doubt thAT!

If so can you share a source.  Someone told me this morning that NCTM is going to restore 1218. 

Two obvious questions: 1) Where would the money come from?, and 2) Where would 1218 operate and pulling what?

Besides, the NCTM doesn't even own #1218 anyway.

Thanks

There was something floating around about the 611 going there in November for an event. Actually, there are flyers and ads from the museum for it. 

Not sure why you'd restore the 1218 when the 611 rarely gets out to begin with....everything doesn't have to be restored to run. 

Haven't heard a word. I think someone is pulling your bell chord.

As I recall when 1218 went to Roanoke originally that NS had destroyed critical parts to make sure it never operated again.  At least that is what I heard from a docent at the time at the museum.  This was way back in 1999.  That could be completely false as well.

GG1 4877 posted:

As I recall when 1218 went to Roanoke originally that NS had destroyed critical parts to make sure it never operated again.  At least that is what I heard from a docent at the time at the museum.  This was way back in 1999.  That could be completely false as well.

The "facts" were/are; 1218 was in the middle of a major overhaul, in their Birmingham Steam Shop, when the NS "pulled the plug" on their steam program. Thus, 1218 was NOT completed, thus leaving the inside of the boiler completely empty, i.e. no tube sheets, no flues/tubes, and no superheaters. Also, only one engine had been overhauled, leaving the other engine untouched (worn-out). The bottom line is, 1218 looks good on the outside, but is empty on the inside, boiler wise.

I can back up what Jack is saying, I was just at the museum in July, 1218 LOOKS pretty, just she’s hollow inside....when we visited, there wasn’t hardly a sole there that day, one of the fellas gave us a guided tour.....he even said 1218 will never ride again...His words: “she’s so empty a gust of wind could move her” .....and don’t even mention the Y6a .....she’s finished.....a lot of rot in that poor sole........Pat

Thanks for the full story Jack. 

Hot Water posted:

GG1 4877 posted:

As I recall when 1218 went to Roanoke originally that NS had destroyed critical parts to make sure it never operated again.  At least that is what I heard from a docent at the time at the museum.  This was way back in 1999.  That could be completely false as well.

The "facts" were/are; 1218 was in the middle of a major overhaul, in their Birmingham Steam Shop, when the NS "pulled the plug" on their steam program. Thus, 1218 was NOT completed, thus leaving the inside of the boiler completely empty, i.e. no tube sheets, no flues/tubes, and no superheaters. Also, only one engine had been overhauled, leaving the other engine untouched (worn-out). The bottom line is, 1218 looks good on the outside, but is empty on the inside, boiler wise.

 

Aren’t her grates and some other components either in the coal bunker or in a “lost boxcar”? I heard the boxcar with parts was supposedly in the deadline with the SDP40 and Slug

Nothing is happening currently with 1218.  Sure, it could be restored.  Nothing all that complicated with skilled people.  Much of what is missing still exists, and most of the rest would have to be replaced anyways.  Probably could be running right now with the amount of money they have spent on 611 between the 2014 rebuild and then all the work done since then that wasn't done in 2014.  Problem is there is not much of anywhere to even run the 611.  No reason to sink $1M+ into the 1218 without a place to run it.

Same story with 2156.  Man made it once.  Man can make it again, or recondition what is there.  Doesn't mean it would come cheap.  Pretty worn out, and still nowhere to run it.

Boiler time doesn't come free, and you don't get to keep the days you spend sitting under a shed without a roaring fire heating water.  Solve the problem of where to run them, and you'll get engines restored again.

To make a long story short, the 1218 is quite literally a shell of what she once was. An operational restoration would require making all of her lost parts from scratch again.

The mascot for over a century of steam locomotive development has been put out to pasture.

I was fortunate to get a cab ride from Hammond, IN to Calument yard in Chicago back in the late 80's.  Very cool experience!

There is a very high probability the 1218 will not be restored in the current climate. But, then again, anything is possible with a favorable change in NS management and an optimal source of funding. We here in Nashville thought we would never see our beloved 576 restored, but that project is successfully underway as I am posting this! And, this was accomplished, in part, with the generous assistance of the CSX! NONE of us has a crystal ball the last time I checked! LOL!

 I thought I read,maybe on here,that the extra flue-tubes that was for either the 611 or 1218 were sent to a scrap yard years ago. Is this true and were they recovered ?

 But I agree with most, the 1218 will most likely set for a long time as a static display. There's too many projects being attempted that are lacking funds that won't necessitate  another large project. It's sad but probably true.  

mackb4 posted:

 I thought I read,maybe on here,that the extra flue-tubes that was for either the 611 or 1218 were sent to a scrap yard years ago. Is this true and were they recovered ?

No may be correct. I seem to remember that one of the bidders at that "final auction" was a scrap yard, and they did get a bunch of items.

 But I agree with most, the 1218 will most likely set for a long time as a static display. There's too many projects being attempted that are lacking funds that won't necessitate  another large project. It's sad but probably true.  

I bet Ed Dickens could fix it.

RickO posted:

I bet Ed Dickens could fix it.

Given the many, many millions he was provided to overhaul 4014, you are probably right.

Hot Water posted:

RickO posted:

I bet Ed Dickens could fix it.

Given the many, many millions he was provided to overhaul 4014, you are probably right.

Given a blank check and a suitable site to do the work, ANY of the qualified steam restoration people could rebuild 1218. 

The talent is out there.

Rusty

The insides of the 1218 were auctioned off years ago when Norfolk Southern ended the steam program last time around. The parts had been removed to do a overhaul and then steam program so they auctioned off the parts. Keep in mind the engine did not belong to the City of Roanoke or the VMT at that point. It was Norfolk Southern's engine to do with what they pleased. From what I was told the insides needed to be rebuilt and may have been beyond repair when they were auctioned off.

As far as the Y6A, I am pleased that it is not in tip top shape. There's a major crack in the frame and it may not be road worthy to haul it back to St. Louis. That being the case it maybe stuck in Roanoke. People outsider of Roanoke do not understand how attached we are to our N&W engines. Years ago when the Y6A was donated to St. Louis there were bumper stickers all over Roanoke "free the Y6".

As far as funds go, the museum doesn't have the money to rebuild the 1218. We haven't raised enough to even start building the steam engine maintenance and display building that was planned when the J611 started her last restoration.  Over the next few years funding may get even more difficult since the city took over the public parking lot in front of the museum, which is very important for the museums' special events and plans to convert it into an outdoor bus depot.  A large percentage of the museum's income comes from these events, however once the bus terminal is built there will not be enough parking for the events. I went to the council meeting to oppose this plan and saw the city council didn't give a crap about the museums parking and thus its future.
Scott Smith

FWIW, I saw a Facebook post recently by a Railfan page that is likely what started the rumor that the big mystery announcement the NCTM had at the time (which is that 611 is returning to NCTM for more events after it leaves Strasburg) was that 1218 would be restored.  Unfortunately it seems as though quite a few people believed said rumor and have been spreading it around.

People seem to act like the missing guts of 1218's boiler is a death sentence.  These are items that are replaced regularly in steam locomotive restorations when needed.  Boilers are a consumable part of steam locomotives and it's not uncommon for portions or entire sheets to need replacing during their lifetime.  A lack of need for and no place to run 1218 is what's keeping it silent.  VMT and the 611 crew are already having to get very creative in finding locations to get runtime in on 611 since mainline running isn't really an option currently other than ferry moves, hence its visits to Strasburg and NCTM.

If memory serves. it is not only the 1218's boiler that is empty of necessary components but a number of appliances are empty shells, such as the air pumps etc.

Also, all the equipment from the Irondale shops which was used in the restorations of 611 and 1218 was auctioned off after the 1994 cessation of the steam program.

We are beginning to run out of friendly rails to run these machines and nobody in today's railroading has any firsthand connection with the glory days.

We'll never see another steam renaissance like we had in the '80s and '90s when one had to decide which big fantrip locomotive, out of two or three, to chase or ride behind on any given weekend. 

Glad I was there with video camera in hand.

I have the DVD on the rebuilt of the J this last time and several folks made remarks about needing parts for the J and the 1218 had some good parts on it that could be used on the J. That being said the person that would the closet to the final world on the 1218 or the J would be Scott. He is very involved with the VTM. 

The main question here is why is this topic still being discussed? 1218 is hollow, there’s no money for a restoration, nowhere to run her, and some other issues. Sure it would be nice to have an articulade running out on the high iron pulling drags up The Shenandoahs (heck 1218 would be running before 1309!) but there just isn’t the infrastructure. NS canceled the Steam program, CSX seems friendly to locomotives that were owned by their predecessors, but an N&W A Class? Most likely not. We can dream but it won’t happen for a while, if ever. 

CSX seems, at least at this juncture in time, to be supportive of the two predecessor locomotive projects, the C&O 2716 and the NC&StL 576, and for that, both the Ravenna, KY and Nashville, TN folks are most appreciative. NO committment to date about future excursions behind these engines on CSX rails, but stranger things have transpired!

I was lucky to see and ride the N & W 1218 steam excursion from Chicago to Fort Wayne almost 30 years ago. My Dad said any steam engine in operation may be last opportunity to experience it in action. I was in my early 20's for that trip. I remember being impressed seeing a giant dinosaur survivor. At least the 611 is running. I am riding it again this Saturday. 

Loved that 1218 "hooter" whistle, especially one night in Birmingham, AL, prior to a next day's excursion to Chattanooga, TN in the late 1980's. Ah, memories of Robert Claytor and the NS Steam Program, still the best ever fielded by a Class One!

You would be better off going out west to see the Big Boy. NS is done with steam excursions again, possibly for a very long time. The writing was on the wall when Wick retired and they cut the program back to just 611. At least NS is allowing 765 and 611 to use their tracks to go to tourist railroads so that the public can ride behind them. There isn't much track for 765 and 611 to run on at their homes that is not NS. This weekend you can ride behind 765 in eastern Ohio, and 611 at Strasburg. Both with open window coaches. 765's train has two open window coaches and the rest streamlined.

I have read for years how 1218 is just a shell and all the parts are lost. Not true. I took these pictures in January '95 on the trip to retrieve C&O 2716 to Ft Wayne. The 1218 is obviously in the shop, torn down, the ash pan and grates were removed at this point so I was able to stand on the shop floor in the middle of the firebox for these pictures. The rear flue sheet was fitted and in place, cannot remember if it was welded, the throat sheet had been patched, stay bolts installed, the engineer's side sheet can be seen patched, stay bolts installed, the door sheet had been replaced, welded in, waiting for stay bolts. Allot of the firebox work had been completed. Flues, tubes, and most likely superheaters would have to be replaced anyway so that is a non-issue. She is far from being "just a shell".

money makes the world go around. The way for future steam restoration to pay for themselves and pay for them to be able to run (pay for that expensive insurance) is for groups to latch on to the potential marketing value of that restoration. Get a major backer who you sell NAMING rights to! The Apple/Microsoft/Coca Cola ETC 1218 restoration. Get electronic bill boards for the tool car! Union Pacific has a Steam program not because they are nice guys. They have seen the marketing value! For the future of mainline steam exploiting the marketing potential of the engine is crucial! The real problem the steam world has is the guys doing the restorations haven't figured that out. The big ones are 611 and 4449. Those engine have huge marketing potential and when people talk about them there is never talk about who is funding them. you don't see any signage on them. That stuff has to happen for Steam on the Mainline to continue.

jethat posted:

money makes the world go around. The way for future steam restoration to pay for themselves and pay for them to be able to run (pay for that expensive insurance) is for groups to latch on to the potential marketing value of that restoration. Get a major backer who you sell NAMING rights to! The Apple/Microsoft/Coca Cola ETC 1218 restoration. Get electronic bill boards for the tool car! Union Pacific has a Steam program not because they are nice guys. They have seen the marketing value! For the future of mainline steam exploiting the marketing potential of the engine is crucial! The real problem the steam world has is the guys doing the restorations haven't figured that out. The big ones are 611 and 4449. Those engine have huge marketing potential and when people talk about them there is never talk about who is funding them. you don't see any signage on them. That stuff has to happen for Steam on the Mainline to continue.

What we don't need are restored steam locomotives decked out like NASCAR with sponsor decals all over the cab and tender.

Rusty

I don't totally follow the logic that every steam locomotive should be made operable again.  This is especially true considering how many operable steam locomotives are in existence with nowhere to go.  While I enjoy watching live steam and support steam operations, I have equally enjoyed seeing steam locomotives meticulously preserved in museums. 

I'd rather see the limited funding go towards preserving the steam we have left in proper indoor and climate controlled environments so they will continue to last for generations to come.  Consider how many museums don't have the funding to protect the collections they have?  If we look  at the VTM alone it's a wonderful collection but mostly sitting outdoors.  Not critical at all of how they operate the museum, just imagining what it might be like if it were all under cover and protected from the elements.

To demo steam, how about a museum using live steam models?  A lot cheaper.  And put the real items inside

Only if I win the lottery.....

Rusty Traque posted:

What we don't need are restored steam locomotives decked out like NASCAR with sponsor decals all over the cab and tender...

Yeah...let’s just let ‘em rust away to dust.  

The reverse has happened, I think.  Did CSX sponsor a NASCAR car or a team at one time.

Dominic Mazoch posted:

The reverse has happened, I think.  Did CSX sponsor a NASCAR car or a team at one time.

Who says the decals have to be on the engine or tender.  Howabout tastefully done on the support car behind the tender.

I think They can be exploited marketing wise tactfully. 4449 endorsed products.  Get Ford Chevy or Dodge to build a truck that is themed to the Engine. Make a marketing excursion around it. There is a ton of stuff that could be done. People just need a marketing expert to do some volunteering of their time.. 

Rich Melvin posted:

Rusty Traque posted:

What we don't need are restored steam locomotives decked out like NASCAR with sponsor decals all over the cab and tender...

Yeah...let’s just let ‘em rust away to dust.  

At least the decals would then hold things together...

Rusty

"Decals holding things together" is both sad and amusing at the same time! Making them look tacky is not a good solution to my way of thinking. Maybe a TASTEFUL and discrete brass plate for recognizing a MAJOR donor or sponsor would be more appropriate. PLEASE, no tacky "decals"! Perhaps, mentioning of sponsors could be incorporated into the marketing of the trips?

Rusty Traque posted:

jethat posted:

money makes the world go around. The way for future steam restoration to pay for themselves and pay for them to be able to run (pay for that expensive insurance) is for groups to latch on to the potential marketing value of that restoration. Get a major backer who you sell NAMING rights to! The Apple/Microsoft/Coca Cola ETC 1218 restoration. Get electronic bill boards for the tool car! Union Pacific has a Steam program not because they are nice guys. They have seen the marketing value! For the future of mainline steam exploiting the marketing potential of the engine is crucial! The real problem the steam world has is the guys doing the restorations haven't figured that out. The big ones are 611 and 4449. Those engine have huge marketing potential and when people talk about them there is never talk about who is funding them. you don't see any signage on them. That stuff has to happen for Steam on the Mainline to continue.

What we don't need are restored steam locomotives decked out like NASCAR with sponsor decals all over the cab and tender.

Rusty

Rusty