Anyone know how to identify good reproductions?

Usually, the identifying characteristics of the repro will be specific to that item. There are few generalities that can be made.

The problem also exists with restorations that were done many years ago, and have since acquired a patina of their own.

Experience comes only with careful examination of many, many different examples of a particular piece. This is where the services of the TCA standards committee can be invaluable at a sponsored meet such as York, but ultimately the responsibilty falls on the individual.

The best advice is to be very sure in your own mind of what you are looking at before reaching for the wallet.

Jim

jsfro, you are in the business so you already probably know the answer better than most.

The Sirus & Varney Ives Black Diamond Standard Gauge cars are said to be distinguishable from the original Ives because the brass window frames tend to be a little less than perfectly aligned.  But that's a subjective call, yes?

Bob McCoy Sr. stopped making reproductions and started making his own designs in the 1960's when TCA members started complaining to him that his reproductions of Lionel could not be distinguished from the real thing.

Louis Hertz wrote at length on the subject back in the 1940's and 1950's.  The problem gets worse with time, for sure:  some of the best 1960's and 1970's reproductions have been around longer now than the originals had been when the reproductions were made.

Some early Williams standard gauge was made so that all parts were identical and interchangeable with the originals.  I have some James Cohen articles (positively identified for me by Joe Mania who bought the tooling), with no identifying marks on them at all.  I have a chrome and brass Ives 1764 which I assume is from that period, and I really do not know who made it.  Rich-Art? Cohen? S&V?  

It helps if buyer beware, and it helps if sellers really think carefully and do not make claims they cannot substantiate.  "I don't know" is a perfectly acceptable - and honest - statement to make.

One thing that might be identifiable is the paint. I believe the early Lionel paint was lacquer.  The items were dipped in the paint and baked to get the paint to dry. Anything made since 1940, a maybe a little earlier will be enamel. The lacquer is harder and thinner and has a denser look. Also indications of the dip paint job can be found.  The paint is thicker on the lower edges and thin on the upper edges.  

i've become rather good at identifying really bad reproductions if that would ever help you out...

 Thanks for the help with this. I always thought of myself as being confident in identifying pieces that have been restored or are reproduction pieces. Those from Rich-Art, Williams, and SV are fairly easily distinguishable, as are the majority of reproductions.

So the outliers are the ones that really require some thought. You know, is that black 392W tender original or an excellent restoration, or is that 1764E I'm interested in an original or a Cohen example that has been run and shows wear?

Originals are just getting harder to come by and the prices on the rare stuff are elevated to the point where repro's may start being passed off as originals, either on purpose or by omission.

I think 1764's may be particularly difficult.  They were somewhat scarce to begin with, so they were one of the first things to be reproduced, which means the repros are themselves older, and some of the earliest reproductions were the highest quality.  

I forget where I learned about the crooked windows on the reproduction Black Diamond cars, but I remembered it because I have a special interest in those cars.  Joe Mania knew exactly where to look on my Cohen day coaches to recognize the stray mark that the Cohen dies made on the metal - a fact he knew because he now owns the dies.

I think it may be this kind of esoteric knowledge that may be necessary to really be able to tell the differences in some cases - the rest of us just need to be careful or know who to ask. I think Jim's first two observations in his post above are particularly germane.

Meant no offense by "in the business":  I associate "jsrfo" with consistently high quality vintage trains on the auction site, with knowledgable and responsible descriptions, so it just seemed that you know what you are doing - better than most.  I've bought quite a few things from you actually (as 'miazal'), always a highly positive experience.  My comment was a recognition of your knowledge and quality as being very professional level.

Overland, that's gotta be an original Boucher, for sure! 

I believe that a black light can be used as modern paint will fluoresce under a black light and older lead based paint will not. 

   A good thread!

   Lead paint will fluoresce, new paints will not! Black light can only tell you if its lead paint or not, unless you have a similar piece you know to be original. For instance, IVES Cardinal Red glows orange under a black light, AF paint also glows orange, or yellow, but it is a different hue. Of course I once had a Cardinal 3242 Jim restored and it beat a black light hands down. So they can only go so far. Fortunately no other restorers ever went to the extents Jim did to bring a piece that close to "fake."

   There are other small details to look for, when S&V made the 3245 locos, they made some very small differences in the way trim attached, and some of their early lokes are not marked. I have seen some poor souls pay high dollar for fake Olympians. 

   It all boils down to experience! Once you have seen enough choo choos, you just have an eyeball for it. Sometimes it is hard. I have examined some white IVES sets and a few Prosperity Specials that are known fakes, and myself as well as some of the hobbies highest "specialists" cannot tell they are imitations.

   At the end of the day, all that really matters is that the buyer is comfortable with their own opinion. These are all toys, for our enjoyment, and a purchase should never leave a sour taste. Only brings Happiness!

Using a magnet is an easy way to distinguish many reproduction steam locomotives from originals as many reproductions were cast from brass and not iron like originals.

Bob

Hojack,

No offense taken. Your comments are highly appreciated. I have had good mentors over the years, and they taught me how to conduct business. I try to keep a high personal standard on myself when it comes to the items I need to sell, and I appreciate the kind comments.

Thanks.

Hi,

I think it's the other way round. Older paint will fluoresce more than newer.

I have recently taken an interest in prewar Lionel and would like to acquire some original examples. 

I need to educate myself of the tall-tale signs of identifying a remake before I start investing money on prewar Lionel.  What articles are available that covers this subject area?

J,

Really the best way is the comparison method. Comparing a found piece to a known correct existing piece is the best tool we have for authenticating.  Black lighting is a distant second, but is something that is more easily accomplished. And as mentioned here...experience.  

When starting, I asked the old timers tons of questions, and I read, read, read anything I could get my hands on. New collectors will have a much better time of it if the can befriend a collector that would become their "mentor" over time you can get a handle on what is right and wrong.  Never stop learning though.... I learned something the other day.

"Lead paint will fluoresce, new paints will not!"

That is incorrect. Lead paint does not fluoresce under black light. Modern zinc, titanium and some other pigments will fluoresce.

Zinc chromate was commonly used as a primer prewar.

A modern lead based paint will act like an old paint (i.e. not fluoresce).

    Original prewar paint absolutely flouresces under black lights! I did it all last week!!!

I think all pigments will fluoresce under black light. The fluorescent effect will change by aging, something with the changing molecular structure of the pigments used.

Lead is used as a white pigment, but as it's darkening (from yellow to almost black) zinc or titanium is used nowadays (which is less toxic either). To detect lead you'll need an X-ray, not a UV.

Normally the Wood lamp is used to show anomalies, touch ups and so. Putting an item under the lamp and saying 'look it's lighten up' doesn't mean that much if you don't compare it with others.