ARE PRICES OF "NEW ITEMS" SLOWING YOU DOWN?

I LOVE the New " High Tech Crap".  I buy as much as I can possibly afford. I LOVE the Sound and Operation of the Legacy System. 

I am a member of an operating crew on two N scale layouts.  I agree that the engines and other equipment runs great.  The engines have reliable DCC with sound.  Basically they have all the bells, lights and whistles found in O scale except for the smoke and I don't run smoke anyway.  The couplers are much better than the O gauge claws.

 The biggest operational problem with N scale is that it is very, very hard to read the numbers on the cars and the cars tip off the track at the slightest touch.  Otherwise, N scale is more reliable than O scale in either 2 or 3 rail.  Just look at all the 100 car N gauge trains running at various train shows.

I wouldn't say that N scale is any cheaper than O however.  Although the equipment is less expensive, most dedicated N scalers have far more locomotives and cars than the typical O gauge person just because they can.  Tortoise switch machines cost the same in both scales.  Ditto for most other hobby supplies.

NH Joe

Short answer Nope!

There hasn't been anything worth buying from Lionel or MTH in the past 10 years in my world,so they can charge whatever they want.The only exception was Lionel's Milwaukee Road 261 steam engine.I bought that beauty.It is a super runner and was offered at a good price.One hit in ten years,not a good batting average in my book,but it has my hobby budget under control big time.

I only purchase a few cars now per year.  I've been completely priced out of the locomotives from the big two.  Seems like swap meets are the primary place for me.

I get what I can. Buying new is not going to happen so I bide my time until something comes along. I purchased a LionChief Plus GP7 for a really good price and it just happened to cross my path. Legacy or TMCC? We'll see. MTH hasn't really peaked my interest, but anything's possible.

I've really just gotten into the hobby in the past 3 years.  There's no doubt that it's an expensive one and if I didn't have the disposable income that I do it would be difficult to have as a hobby.

That being said, I have a budget that I decide on and I make my purchases accordingly.  If prices continue to go up, I will buy fewer items, but I'd rather buy fewer trains and have Lionel and MTH be profitable and continue to exist instead of the alternative.

And although the high end items are very expensive, the hobby does scale to fit different budgets with Lion Chief / Railking as lower cost alternatives.

It's never a good feeling being priced out of a market you once enjoyed.  But with wage stagnation in many occupations, low yields on many investments, dramatic increases in the costs of production abroad, and retirement for some of us, many people are finding that economic realities make it impossible to justify expenses that were once relatively easily accommodated.  Best to be philosophical about this. As long as one can afford housing, food, transportation and medical care, everything else is negotiable, one would hope.

The assertion that the owners of Lionel are, like many of the "1%," operating by a different set of rules, is unlikely in my view.  The management staff of Lionel are not hedge fund managers or startup entrepreneurs, and the yield on this small company cannot be much of substance in the big picture for the private equity firm that owns most of Lionel.  The prices of new products mostly reflect the cost of new tooling, the lack of the economies of scale (reduced market size) and increased labor costs in China in all likelihood.  Unfortunate for the consumer, but a reality.  As many have pointed out, there are vast opportunities for buying lower priced products (starter sets, LC and LC+) and on the secondary market.  The high end is now higher than before, by and large, and that will not change any time soon, I'd guess.  There aren't too many premium consumer products that are not increasing in price disproportionate to the basic inflation rate, which is averaging under 2% a year.

That said, the reason people are not complaining about Atlas, MTH and 3rd Rail seems clear to me.  MTH and Atlas are doing virtually no new tooling or technology development so that makes it possible to keep their prices at the high end relatively more affordable than Lionel.  They also have much less brand recognition and market power so they must compete on price.   MTH, formerly a strong competitor to Lionel in innovation, has only invested in their new wi-fi system in recent years, as best as I can tell.  Atlas is a bit player in this market, compared with their role in HO and N.  3rd Rail is doing boutique marketing of 100 locomotives at a time that are hand assembled and require smaller tooling investment compared with diecast steamers.  And the notion that 3rd Rail products, however nice, are a great bargain, puzzles me.  They have plenty of locomotives for sale at prices even higher than Lionel, and they don't have the Lionel cutting edge electronics and sound.

At this point, I don't see anyone but Lionel trying to develop new tooling and innovation on any scale,  and that is expensive.  Some don't like this explanation, but I think it makes more sense than "they are soaking the consumer for all he or she is worth" as an alternative.  There's a feeling of betrayal when one is no longer pleased with a loved product that is unreasonably priced by one's standards.  But that doesn't mean someone is behaving badly. It's just the economics of the industry and its realities.  Best not to get bent out of shape about it.  No one is dying or sick.

I'm completely priced out of new O gauge, and even new HO is getting steep for what it is.  The only thing I've bought recently was an MPC boxcar for $9.95 on fleabay.  At one point, I'd intended to focus on Lionel from the 70's-90's, but considering that there's zero demand for most of it, I'd never be able to sell it if I ever had to- so that's out.

Basically, I'm out of the market altogether these days.  I doubt I'm the only one.

I am totally out of O gauge after 40+ years. I especially love the 3rs side of the hobby but because of space and the price of today's products which IMO is totally out of control I decided to sell all my O gauge. I just could not justify having all those box's taking up space. 

I now have a nice Ho layout that I can afford and run my favorite trains. The most important thing is I am having fun again. 

Thank you, Mr. Landsteiner, for your comprehensive synopsis on this subject. I think my head will explode!

A Standard Gauge train set used to cost $6.98. The attached advertisement is from 1910 when prices were low, but of course, this train set cost more than an average weeks salary in 1910.

Almost. The average wage in 1910 was $.22 an hour, but the work week average 48 hours. But the point is well taken. :-)

Yes it has.  I'm done w/ new stuff.  2 kids & 1 more due in April - all that free money is evaporating quickly   I play w/ my trains w/ my kids. I cant justify buying a $100 6464 style boxcar.  I look to the used market these days.  I sold all my new scale stuff. The failure rate was alarming & most of these engines were only a few months old. Problems would just pop up for no reason.  I would rather buy postwar & mpc stuff & enjoy it w/ my kids than shell out 500-1000 for an engine that may or may not work the next time I put it on the track. 

david1 posted:

...

I now have a nice Ho layout that I can afford and run my favorite trains. The most important thing is I am having fun again. 

You definitely have your priorities straight, David.  And this is where Lionel's new management team is missing the mark COMPLETELY.  The "new tooling" moniker is a huge smoke-screen explanation too.  Sure, there's "some" new tooling here and there.  But exactly where is the "new tooling" in the Vision Line GG-1 that warrants a $1399 MSRP and $1190 MAP?   A flashing LED on the pantograph?  P-U-H-L-E-A-S-E give us credit for being a bit less gullible than that.  

Also, Lionel is NOT the only importer requesting new designs from their Chinese factories.  Atlas-O announced their Gunderson Maxi-IV Well cars last year to much fanfare, and that announcement appeared to be well-received with dealer pre-orders.

I haven't given up completely on O-Gauge though.   Menards seems to be on a roll with a stream of impressive product announcements for the 6464-style rolling stock crowd, and I'm selectively using some of their product to add a bit of forced perspective on my new layout, where slightly smaller rolling stock size adds a nice distant appearance to the scene.

Once you realize it's all a big pricing game by Lionel to push the envelope until it hurts a bit more than last year's price increases, it's actually quite freeing to step off the treadmill.  I wish them luck trying to sell $1800 Allegheny's , $1200 GG-1's, and $1100 Steel City Switcher train sets.  (BTW, those are street-prices... the MSRP's are even more ridiculous.)  But as I said in another thread... if dealers want to order those items "on spec", that's their call.  And I'll just let the dust settle where it may.  Either enthusiasts will pay the prices and the items will sell out.  Or dealers will be forced to move product at deep discounts before the next 200-page catalog is published.  The sad news with the latter scenario however, is that Lionel will have already been paid premium dollar, and it's the dealers who will be taking the hit with inventory that doesn't move.

Now more than ever it should be evident -- yes, even to Lionel's most faithful enthusiasts -- that the premium dollars they're spending are supporting an unnecessary and bloated expense base built into "Brand-L".  Fortunately, there are other alternatives on the market where folks can still enjoy model trains and "have fun" without worrying when the next paycheck will be deposited into their checking account.  Gotta love when the built-in "checks and balances" of our market work as designed.    O-Gauge is still a great segment of this terrific hobby.

David

There are always great buys for freight cars at train shows.  And if you look hard you'll find good deals on passenger cars too.  Recently I've been buying Williams engines at terrific prices and installing Cruise Commanders instead of purchasing high end high price engines.  Works for me.

" if dealers want to order those items "on spec", that's their call.  And I'll just let the dust settle where it may. "

Very gracious of you to allow that. I'm sure Lionel's management is breathing a huge sigh of relief to know this .

Atlas new tooling of a single new product is surely going to set the church bells ringing throughout the land.  Listening to the Notch 6 interviews, it appears Lionel is tooling a dozen or more new products in this catalog alone.  Perhaps they're lying to us, and hoping that the "Lionel faithful" are gullible enough to believe their outlandish, greedy, treacherous claims?

Christopher2035 posted:

Yes it has.  I'm done w/ new stuff.  2 kids & 1 more due in April - all that free money is evaporating quickly   I play w/ my trains w/ my kids. I cant justify buying a $100 6464 style boxcar.  I look to the used market these days.  I sold all my new scale stuff. The failure rate was alarming & most of these engines were only a few months old. Problems would just pop up for no reason.  I would rather buy postwar & mpc stuff & enjoy it w/ my kids than shell out 500-1000 for an engine that may or may not work the next time I put it on the track. 

Congrats on number 3!  I'm in the same boat.  3  children doesn't translate to a lot of trains on my layout.  I scaled down from Premier engines to RailKing Heritage Diesels about 3 or 4 months ago.   At the rate I'm buying accessories my layout will be complete in 2022.

To answer the original question, it may have slowed me down but it hasn't stopped me.  There was a period (about 2010 -2103) when I was not buying anything but some the models coming out now are irresistible.  (I think 2008-2013 was when Lionel talked about making models that were "compelling;" now, I think they are actually making models that live up to that description.)  Two examples: Lionel's PRR N5/N5b cabin cars and GLa hopper cars - faithfully replicated and beautifully executed.  I am looking forward to Lionel's models of the Broadway Limited cars.  IMHO, the Lion Chief locomotives and sets offer high quality performance at a price that makes them a good value.

"But exactly where is the "new tooling" in the Vision Line GG-1 that warrants a $1399 MSRP and $1190 MAP?"

It seems to me new tooling is seen in the "Rivets" version and in the Amtrak model with the high air intakes.  I feel the flashing LEDs on the pantographs are gimmicky things that fail to capture the nature and drama of actual sparking.  Lionel would have done better to raise the bar with the pantographs by actually raising them - that is, extending their reach at the top end as seen in videos at various locations with high catenary including Greenwich Yard at the Philadelphia Army-Navy games.  (Bachmann has captured this aspect of prototype fidelity in their HO GG1 models.)  But it's a minor nitpick and we now have "Rivets" and the high air intake GG1 models which I didn't think we'd ever see.

I know this is 3-rail oriented, but I don’t buy much anymore for rolling stock as I have almost everything I want (still hoping someone will make an affordable ET&WNC wood hopper) as my prototype is very limited for what I could buy.

That said, I bought most of my rolling stock (and modified, painted and weathered them) as the layout was either being planned or didn’t even exist on paper yet. Made things so much easier for when I got the layout runnable, as I only had to free them from the boxes and attach brake wheels in some cases.

On30 stuff was reasonably priced when I got into it. Lots of good internet deals and local hobby shops routinely having affordable rolling stock. At some point not long ago, that came to a grinding halt. Inexpensive On30 anything dried up almost overnight, even on eBay. You can still find it if you look, but you have to look way harder now.

If I had to buy all that stuff now, I wouldn’t have nearly as much rolling stock as I do today!

Christopher2035 posted:

Yes it has.  I'm done w/ new stuff.  2 kids & 1 more due in April - all that free money is evaporating quickly   I play w/ my trains w/ my kids. I cant justify buying a $100 6464 style boxcar.  I look to the used market these days.  I sold all my new scale stuff. The failure rate was alarming & most of these engines were only a few months old. Problems would just pop up for no reason.  I would rather buy postwar & mpc stuff & enjoy it w/ my kids than shell out 500-1000 for an engine that may or may not work the next time I put it on the track. 

I agree with Christopher's approach and his view on the new stuff. In fact, I have done something similar, although retirement is my reason. Guess what - I am having more fun with postwar, MPC and Lionel postwar reissues than I was before!

Lionel's high-end trains have far too many problems, what makes collectors think that ten years from now that this stuff will run, or even be repairable. I have a friend who keeps buying trains and doesn't even have a train layout. He seems afraid of failure since he knows he cannot build the museum quality layout he wants. By the time he gets around to running his trains, they may not run, or be fixable. Today's collectors sometimes convince themselves that this will not happen with their trains and point to how 60 year-old Lionel trains are still running. Today's Lionel trains are not your Grandfather's Lionel trains!

ronald1 posted:

Christopher2035 posted:

Yes it has.  I'm done w/ new stuff.  2 kids & 1 more due in April - all that free money is evaporating quickly   I play w/ my trains w/ my kids. I cant justify buying a $100 6464 style boxcar.  I look to the used market these days.  I sold all my new scale stuff. The failure rate was alarming & most of these engines were only a few months old. Problems would just pop up for no reason.  I would rather buy postwar & mpc stuff & enjoy it w/ my kids than shell out 500-1000 for an engine that may or may not work the next time I put it on the track. 

I agree with Christopher's approach and his view on the new stuff. In fact, I have done something similar, although retirement is my reason. Guess what - I am having more fun with postwar, MPC and Lionel postwar reissues than I was before!

Lionel's high-end trains have far too many problems, what makes collectors think that ten years from now that this stuff will run, or even be repairable. I have a friend who keeps buying trains and doesn't even have a train layout. He seems afraid of failure since he knows he cannot build the museum quality layout he wants. By the time he gets around to running his trains, they may not run, or be fixable. Today's collectors sometimes convince themselves that this will not happen with their trains and point to how 60 year-old Lionel trains are still running. Today's Lionel trains are not your Grandfather's Lionel trains!

Not just for Lionel but all manufactuerers. This has been in my mind lately. I want my trains - most of which are MTH PS2 or PS3 to still be running in 40 or 60 years. They sure has heck won't be running on the electronics in them now. Even if you replace the electronics, there may still be issues. The original boards blew up in my MTH Railking PS2 Hudson steam engine. I put new PS2 boards in it and those boards seem to be acting up now.

A brand new MTH Mikado with PS3 is back at my dealer (yet again) for bizarre issues - chuffing in neutral, no coupler, flickering lights, etc. Thankfully I've got a few more months of warranty with it...God help me when the warranty runs out!!!

I'm becoming a "keep it simple" person. I just want to run trains, not hope and pray the thing will work each time I put it on the track. I've got a few conventional Lionel and Williams products - all excellent. I'm sure I'll still be running those in the years to come with little or no repairs. They are all simple enough that even I can work on them and replace a board if needed. I've got two MTH PS2 engines that have board issues right now. They run but will do weird things occasionally. One is the previously mentioned MTH Railking Hudson, another an MTH Railking F3. I've decided that when the boards blow up, they will get basic E units for F/N/R operation, the Hudson will get a basic smoke unit, "thumbtack" couplers, and a Lionel air whistle for the Hudson and maybe a Williams horn/bell board for the diesel. I want it simple. I want them to work. I sure could afford all new PS3 boards but it seems like every couple of hours of run time, something breaks. Not doing that again. I've also decided, outside of what I have on pre-order, to no longer purchase command control trains. Actually, I'm really going to cut off my buying. I've got more stuff than I want and need and will start selling items here on the forum. Again, I want the same trains to be running in 40 years. Another point is ease on the club modular layout. While the other guys are doing the usual song and dance of trying to run the command stuff with some success, I'll happily be running laps around them with my conventional engines.

Maybe I should some electronics to my prewar stuff.
Example: Put in a microphone and speaker in a Tinplate box car or gondola, and then aim the microphone to the bottom of the car so that I could amplify that glorious Tinplate sound

Landsteiner posted:

"...

Very gracious of you to allow that. I'm sure Lionel's management is breathing a huge sigh of relief to know this .

...

Well, as I said... Lionel will have already gotten paid.  So why should they care?  Just like they've already been paid for the $649 MSRP ES44's sitting in dealer inventory now.  You know... the one's we were led to believe would sell out via pre-orders... the ones dealers tried to sell their "extra" stock first at near-MSRP levels... and are now slowly lowering the pricetag week by week until folks bite.  And there are still a bunch in the market -- even the BNSF.  I was lucky and purchased two ES44's on pre-order for a "good" price... then purchased a third when a local train shop offered a New Year's Day sale -- and I paid LESS for that one than I did my two pre-orders.  So much for the pre-order "requirement".

Regardless of what we pay dealers though, Lionel has already gotten their profit out of the deal.  So until the backlog of dealer "extra's" blows up in their face one year, Lionel corporate doesn't give a hoot about street-prices in the short-term.

You and I view the same situation through a completely different set of eye glasses.  That's pretty obvious. 

David

I did NOT tell the truth. Earlier in this thread I wrote that the price of Lionel's Commemorative boxcars would make me think twice about their new products.

Liar, liar, pants on fire !!!

I looked at the new catalogue and began to order. When the smoke cleared and I totaled up the order I realized I would have to go back to work. 

Can anyone use an old teacher?

Eliot "Scrapiron" Scher

"

Can anyone use an old teacher?"

Experienced and wise, not old . 

Scrapiron Scher posted:

...

I looked at the new catalogue and began to order. When the smoke cleared and I totaled up the order I realized I would have to go back to work. 

 ...

Eliot, I went through the same exercise.  Looked at the grand total, then looked at my current roster and asked, "WTF am I gonna order this new stuff for?  And at these prices?  No way!!!"  

And it was SUCH a wonderful feeling to close the catalogs, and cross off about 90% of the items on the "wish list".  The remaining 10% are odds-and-ends type items that require little if any "financial planning".   What a relief. 

David

SJC posted:

ronald1 posted:

Christopher2035 posted:

Yes it has.  I'm done w/ new stuff.  2 kids & 1 more due in April - all that free money is evaporating quickly   I play w/ my trains w/ my kids. I cant justify buying a $100 6464 style boxcar.  I look to the used market these days.  I sold all my new scale stuff. The failure rate was alarming & most of these engines were only a few months old. Problems would just pop up for no reason.  I would rather buy postwar & mpc stuff & enjoy it w/ my kids than shell out 500-1000 for an engine that may or may not work the next time I put it on the track. 

I agree with Christopher's approach and his view on the new stuff. In fact, I have done something similar, although retirement is my reason. Guess what - I am having more fun with postwar, MPC and Lionel postwar reissues than I was before!

Lionel's high-end trains have far too many problems, what makes collectors think that ten years from now that this stuff will run, or even be repairable. I have a friend who keeps buying trains and doesn't even have a train layout. He seems afraid of failure since he knows he cannot build the museum quality layout he wants. By the time he gets around to running his trains, they may not run, or be fixable. Today's collectors sometimes convince themselves that this will not happen with their trains and point to how 60 year-old Lionel trains are still running. Today's Lionel trains are not your Grandfather's Lionel trains!

Not just for Lionel but all manufactuerers. This has been in my mind lately. I want my trains - most of which are MTH PS2 or PS3 to still be running in 40 or 60 years. They sure has heck won't be running on the electronics in them now. Even if you replace the electronics, there may still be issues. The original boards blew up in my MTH Railking PS2 Hudson steam engine. I put new PS2 boards in it and those boards seem to be acting up now.

A brand new MTH Mikado with PS3 is back at my dealer (yet again) for bizarre issues - chuffing in neutral, no coupler, flickering lights, etc. Thankfully I've got a few more months of warranty with it...God help me when the warranty runs out!!!

I'm becoming a "keep it simple" person. I just want to run trains, not hope and pray the thing will work each time I put it on the track. I've got a few conventional Lionel and Williams products - all excellent. I'm sure I'll still be running those in the years to come with little or no repairs. They are all simple enough that even I can work on them and replace a board if needed. I've got two MTH PS2 engines that have board issues right now. They run but will do weird things occasionally. One is the previously mentioned MTH Railking Hudson, another an MTH Railking F3. I've decided that when the boards blow up, they will get basic E units for F/N/R operation, the Hudson will get a basic smoke unit, "thumbtack" couplers, and a Lionel air whistle for the Hudson and maybe a Williams horn/bell board for the diesel. I want it simple. I want them to work. I sure could afford all new PS3 boards but it seems like every couple of hours of run time, something breaks. Not doing that again. I've also decided, outside of what I have on pre-order, to no longer purchase command control trains. Actually, I'm really going to cut off my buying. I've got more stuff than I want and need and will start selling items here on the forum. Again, I want the same trains to be running in 40 years. Another point is ease on the club modular layout. While the other guys are doing the usual song and dance of trying to run the command stuff with some success, I'll happily be running laps around them with my conventional engines.

Totally agree.  It's not just Lionel, but MTH as well.  In the time I had my scale stuff, 5 engines developed quirks & the TIU had issues a few times. 

I can pull any of 40 + year old my postwar & MPC engines off a shelf & they will run. If for some reason they don't, I'm sure I can buy the part & probably fix it myself.   I feel like I can comment fairly on this issue, as I have seen both sides - the scale , high priced side & the postwar /traditional side.  The new stuff is beyond cool - I'm not taking anything away from it - details & features that weren't even imaginable 20 years ago are now standard on most models. With all that comes the price you must pay - from a  dollar amount & the fact that the electronics in these engines are just not made well enough to stand the test of time.  Traditional stuff lacks details, scale length & a lot of other things - so it's a trade off. For me, the trains should be fun b/c so many other things through out the day are not.  When they stop being fun, I walk away.  The great thing about our hobby compared to HO,  N, etc is that you really have a choice to run so many different styles - Prewar, postwar, MPC, modern - traditional, hi rail.  Trains are a big part of my life, but not my whole life.  Reality is I have a family , a house, cars, bills, etc.  There's only so much extra money for trains.  I choose to get the $20 9700 boxcar rather than the $80 9700 copy boxcar b/c it says 'new' on it. In the end, they all do the same thing - roll around a loop.  If I were single maybe I wouldn't care as much, but I still want the trains in my life & my kids lives.  They are a tradition , passed down from my Pop & Uncle. My kids can't tell a $20 boxcar from a $100 boxcar anyway  

I have often wondered about the longevity of modern locomotives myself.  I have a large collection of postwar Lionel locomotives that belonged to my Grandfather.  They all still run perfectly!  Will my $500.00 & $600.00 diesel MTH & Lionel locomotives still be running 50 to 60 years from now.  Will my grand children be able to operate my locomotives in DCS 50 to 60 years from now.  I'm 53 years old, so I suppose I'll have to look down from Heaven and see if they still run.  I have no doubt, the old postwar Lionel Locos will still be running along.

Paul,

   Sense Menard's is now providing decent rolling stock at more than fair prices, I have expanded my purchasing, an added numerous Military Cars to my US Army Train, including their latest, which I just ordered a few days ago.  Now that Menards has upgraded their rolling sock trucks and couplers, these Cars are more than worth the money, the WWII Commemorative Box Cars are fantastic.  I also just recently picked up a nice Lionel PRR Flat Car to upgrade with a 1/2 Track, that I purchased from one of our OGR members, so some new rolling stock has been added to the PRR again this year, because the price was right.   Not everything in O Gauge us over priced!

PCRR/Dave

I agree with that.  Thank God for Menards!  I have also purchased several of their latest releases.

I for one like the new technologies. However,i  am getting priced out of the "NEW" Trains market. To me at least, the manufacturers need to take heed here. When the pricing turns people away, the risk becomes very real that you can kill off interest in the hobby.

At one time I was a "Collector." I cashed out in the early 1990's before prices tanked. Darn good thing I did. The Legacy system and DCS, are what brought me back into the Hobby. I am no longer a collector and am focused more on Operating trains. I just don't like seeing tem sitting on the shelf collecting dust. With all the marvels of sounds and control, I get much more enjoyment out of running my trains.

Having said all that, I have been forced into the Secondary  market and base many of my decisions on Price versus desire. Admittedly, there are some items high on my "Desires" list (Legacy Rock Island Heavy Mikado, being number 1), I now carefully search for selected items that fit into my layout scheme of things. Basically Rock Island Focused with some flexibility towards anything that may have operated in and out of LaSalle Street Station. THat to me is a pretty large box in which to play.

As I have stated in other posts, I get the whole "Profitability" model. However, short term profits, tend to be overshadowing long term viability through market growth. With the splintering of operating systems, I view it as a disincentive for entry level hobbyists. 

Just my take on the world.

FWIW, I like to believe (with no basis whatsoever), that if the TMCC and Legacy Electronics totally fail in the next 25 years or so, that today's scale steamers from Lionel and MTH could be made to run in "conventional" mode....to some degree.

We'd still have detailed, scale steamers with 4 chuffs per revolution, excellent smoke, and great sounds:  whistle, bell, and "sound of steam".  I'd take that over the MPC years in a heart beat.

And lets face it:  some of the TMCC pieces have been around for a while now.  Most/many are still running just fine.....knock on wood.

"that if the TMCC and Legacy Electronics totally fail in the next 25 years or so, that today's scale steamers from Lionel and MTH could be made to run in "conventional" mode....to some degree."

As long as the drive train is intact, replacement motors and electrical/electronics have always been available to operate these locos in conventional from the postwar period to present.  I'd go further and say that digital command control replacements with sound will likely always be available for those who want them.  Perhaps even cheaper than today . 

I'm sure those who bought the first abacus, slide rules and adding machines worried about what would happen when a part failed.  After all, counting on fingers had worked for millenia before these complex devices were developed.  I think worrying about whether these locos will be operational in the future is similar in some respects. If there is any market demand at all, new or replacement parts are usually available for motors and their control functions.  In the R/C hobby, brushed motors can be replaced by the same or by more efficient brushless motors.  Rubber for free flight airplanes is still available three quarters of  a century after the invention of the glow engine.

Berkshire President posted:

FWIW, I like to believe (with no basis whatsoever), that if the TMCC and Legacy Electronics totally fail in the next 25 years or so, that today's scale steamers from Lionel and MTH could be made to run in "conventional" mode....to some degree.

We'd still have detailed, scale steamers with 4 chuffs per revolution, excellent smoke, and great sounds:  whistle, bell, and "sound of steam".  I'd take that over the MPC years in a heart beat.

And lets face it:  some of the TMCC pieces have been around for a while now.  Most/many are still running just fine.....knock on wood.

I think the controllers, i.e., hand held remotes, TMCC bases, TIUs, are more likely to fail than the locomotives. Conventional engines seem to run forever. Not everyone will run their trains via an I phone etc.

You're probably right, Paul.  (H*ll, some of the 990s are still failing...today.)

And as iPhones get upgraded, there's no guarantee that at some point down the road, that app will no longer be supported if there isn't enough demand for it.

Guess we better not completely forget about block wiring then, huh? 

And we can take comfort in the fact that we can simply drive to our local Radio Shack to pick up our electrical repair parts.   Oh wait....... 

You can still purchase mechanical E-units, decades after they became outmoded.  You cannot walk into a hobby store and buy one, true, but there are boutique hobbyist/vendors as well as used part suppliers from whom you can order these antiques.  35-50 years after the electronic e-unit (just guessing here) replaced the mechanical E-unit as "state of the art" we still can get mechanical ones when all new stuff comes with electronics for motor control and power.  While I likely won't be around to see it, command control, which depends on simple integrated circuits,  made for pennies, should be readily available in some form in 2045, 50 years after the introduction of TMCC .

Believe it or not, while I do have Legacy, I also still have and use my original TMCC system (base and remote) purchased new in 1997.  Just some periodic cleaning of the buttons and wheel on the remote, and it all still works perfectly, almost 20 years later.   Same with the then new engines I bought back then.

As far as prices of "new items" slowing me down?    I've never been a buy something new every year guy.   if something new comes along that I like, want, and it fits with what I desire to spend on trains at the time, I buy it.  

That doesn't always mean I am buying the top end, latest and greatest scale Vision item.  Sometime the brand new item I want is a Lionchief, or Lionchief +, not because of price, but because I like the item.

All of my hobby purchases are like this.   The top end stuff has always been more expensive than the mid line stuff.  I'm okay with that.

It's like my car restoration/modification (restifications) that I do for myself or others:

Customer: How fast can we make this?

Me:  How much money do you have to spend?

Bob Delbridge posted:

For the past 2 years I've bought nothing but older engines, mostly steam.  With my converting from DCS/TMCC to BPRC I'm trying to find quality older engines that don't have a lot in the way of electronics in them, so I'm not losing but so much $$$ on the conversion.  Unless it's an engine I desperately want, I'm not spending $$$ to gut a new engine and replace the electronics.

Of course there's the fact that I have 15 engines now (8 steam, 7 diesel) which is way more than I ever planned or care to run at one time.

Hopefully I can spend some of that cash on a nice set of SAL Silver Meteor passenger cars from GGD one of these days.  I'm also focusing more on finishing the scenery and populate the layout with peeps and other useful items.

Recently I bought a Williams Amtrak Genesis with a shot e unit.  I got it for $20.00.  I am going to put some DC on the motors to see if they are not fried.  If they are, rip everything out, make dummy unit.  If the are solid, just place a simple ERR board in without sound.  I have been in this hobby long enough to enjoy the sound trains make going over the switches and joints!

Fredstrains posted:

I LOVE the New " High Tech Crap".  I buy as much as I can possibly afford. I LOVE the Sound and Operation of the Legacy System. 

I agree....

I have turned my attention to post war.  Don't think I will be in the market for new or command engines in my future. I have all I need and the price points are too high for my likes just not what I want to spend that much for. Of course that's just a value judgement of my own.