ARE PRICES OF "NEW ITEMS" SLOWING YOU DOWN?

jojofry posted:

When mth offeres smoking whistle steamers  I am done with Lionel. 

BINGO!!!!   That is SO true.   

I can recall back in the early to middle part of the 2000's decade (i.e., when I purchased my Erie Triplex among other great steamers) that MTH was king-of-the-hill in terms of locomotive detail, slow-speed smooth operation, and smoke unit operation -- just to name a few key features.  Then Lionel introduced Legacy Railsounds, JLC class offerings, and improved slow-speed operation which put Lionel ahead of the pack.  Whistle-steam was a hit from Day 1, and Lionel's new management made a MAJOR mis-step by removing it on the next round of locomotives.   But after HUGE criticism from consumers, the feature made its return a year later.  And now most enthusiasts won't buy a new steam locomotive without it...  myself included.

Of course, while all of this was happening, MTH lost their overseas steam locomotive factory (i.e., responsible for U.S. steam locomotives) for a couple of years.  An unfortunate "perfect storm" of sorts... which opened the flood-gates for even die-hard MTH clients to jump over to Lionel for steam locomotive purchases.  Now MTH is hitting full-stride again with steam locomotive production, and they offered whistle-steam on their Big Boy and implemented it much better than Lionel did on its Vision Line Big Boy.  But I was disappointed the feature didn't make its way into the Z-6 Challenger.    If it had, I would have purchased a NP or GN model in a heart-beat. 

Case in point.... Lionel's non-articulated FEF-3 has an inflated $1700 MSRP / $1430 pre-order street-price.  Compare that to MTH's FEF-3's at dealers now for $1080 or so.  Better yet, look at MTH's highly detailed Z-6 Challenger at a $1500 MSRP / $1400 pre-order price.  We'd spend LESS for an articulated MTH steamer vs. a  non-articulated Lionel steamer!  Go figure. 

David

PAUL ROMANO posted:

jojofry posted:

When mth offeres smoking whistle steamers  I am done with Lionel. 

I believe MTH's newest Big Boy will have the "smoking whistle" feature.

Yes... and if you look at the recent Eric's Trains video featuring the MTH Big Boy, it appears MTH did a very nice job implemented whistle-steam.  Can't wait to see them bring the feature to more of the MTH steam loco roster!!!  Lionel's now unchecked pricing model will be history at that point.   That's why competition is needed in the marketplace... so no company can do what Lionel is attempting to do now.

David

Rocky Mountaineer posted:

jojofry posted:

 

Whistle-steam was a hit from Day 1, and Lionel's new management made a MAJOR mis-step by removing it on the next round of locomotives.   But after HUGE criticism from consumers, the feature made its return a year later.  And now most enthusiasts won't buy a new steam locomotive without it...  myself included.

 

Most?  Sorry, you're dreaming, David.  Most enthusiasts can't afford a whistle-steam loco, have none, and never will have.  Don't judge the market by its most rabid segment.

What I cannot believe is the price of a lion master challenger compared to a scale engine. Even though the lion master is not scale it still has legacy, it's articulated, whistle smoke and the sound is the same. Production cost between the two cannot be much different . It's cost is around $800. Way less than a 1400 plus scale locomotive. Like the y6b.

Why such a huge difference? Greed?

The Lionel FEFs are so overpriced that they are almost in Legacy Challenger range.

Which is a shame....b/c they are fantastic models.  But I won't budge.

Let's not forget that Lionel is an LLC.  And while every business needs to be profitable to survive, Lionel is clearing going out of its way for a higher margin/lower volume pricing model in an effort to "increase its multiple" to its Limited Members and creating a (presumably) outrageous Management Fee for itself.

It's not just the high end portion of the hobby.  How much did the Polar Express sets cost to manufacture and distribute?  The margins on those are probably just as large....percentage wise.  Add Amazon to the mix, drive down the cost as low as possible without regard to quality control whatsoever, and sell them en masse via the Interweb/Amazon.  (BTW:  check out the reviews of some of these sets....and the disappointment many felt on Christmas morning.)

In the middle part of the hobby, price point wise, how are some new Diesels $150-$200 more than last year?

Very sad....IMHO.  Why alienate so much of your otherwise loyal customer base?

The chickens always come home to roost........

If Lionel would produce new locomotives instead of the same ones over and over you could justify some of the cost. I think they are completely missing the mark by not offering legacy and chuff upgrade kits. The return on electronic components has to be much higher than producing a whole locomotive. 

Doesnt seem to affect MTH sales on new locomotives.

palallin posted:

Rocky Mountaineer posted:

jojofry posted:

 

Whistle-steam was a hit from Day 1, and Lionel's new management made a MAJOR mis-step by removing it on the next round of locomotives.   But after HUGE criticism from consumers, the feature made its return a year later.  And now most enthusiasts won't buy a new steam locomotive without it...  myself included.

 

Most?  Sorry, you're dreaming, David.  Most enthusiasts can't afford a whistle-steam loco, have none, and never will have.  Don't judge the market by its most rabid segment.

Not so sure I agree with your description that Lionel's most enthusiastic buyers are "rabid" enthusiasts.  They're just good folks blessed with the ability to purchase those items, although a subset of that group is pushing back nowadays -- not because they can't afford Lionel's prices, but rather they just don't WANT to pay those prices.  Your comment about many folks not being ABLE to afford the higher-priced locomotives is a harsh reality that further confirms some observations that Lionel is leaving increasing numbers of toy/model train enthusiasts behind these days -- especially those who had grand plans to participate in the hi-rail, scale market.

My comment about whistle-steam buyers was really describing the segment of the market that had traditionally purchased those types of locomotives.  Once whistle-steam came out, many potential buyers refused to purchase locomotives the following year that didn't have the feature.  It was a cost-cutting measure on Lionel's part which failed miserably.  That was the spirit of my comment.

David

Yes it has.  I really like the Smithsonian Boxcar but at the prices I've seen it I'll have to pass.

coach joe posted:

Yes it has.  I really like the Smithsonian Boxcar but at the prices I've seen it I'll have to pass.

Price notwithstanding, the Smithsonian Boxcar looked cool.  But for a 6464-style boxcar, the price-point was almost laughable.

The other issue I had with something like that is we seldom know for sure if that's a one-off item, or if it's the start of a series.  If a second boxcar is announced -- or if Lionel commits to a series -- then look out... folks will flock to buy the first car.  And a few years later, the first car in the series has a premium price on it in the secondary market.  That's what happened when Lionel offered the 10 sets of 6464 boxcar re-issues (as 3-packs) several years back.  Sellers played all kinds of games with the Volume 1 three-pack, and even now it's often tagged with a premium price by many sellers hoping to turn a hefty profit.

Unless I missed something, I can't recall if Lionel plans any more cool images for an entire series of Smithsonian boxcars.    Anyone know???

David

Rocky Mountaineer posted:

palallin posted:

Rocky Mountaineer posted:

jojofry posted:

 

Whistle-steam was a hit from Day 1, and Lionel's new management made a MAJOR mis-step by removing it on the next round of locomotives.   But after HUGE criticism from consumers, the feature made its return a year later.  And now most enthusiasts won't buy a new steam locomotive without it...  myself included.

 

Most?  Sorry, you're dreaming, David.  Most enthusiasts can't afford a whistle-steam loco, have none, and never will have.  Don't judge the market by its most rabid segment.

Not so sure I agree with your description that Lionel's most enthusiastic buyers are "rabid" enthusiasts.  They're just good folks blessed with the ability to purchase those items, although a subset of that group is pushing back nowadays -- not because they can't afford Lionel's prices, but rather they just don't WANT to pay those prices.  Your comment about many folks not being ABLE to afford the higher-priced locomotives is a harsh reality that further confirms some observations that Lionel is leaving increasing numbers of toy/model train enthusiasts behind these days -- especially those who had grand plans to participate in the hi-rail, scale market.

My comment about whistle-steam buyers was really describing the segment of the market that had traditionally purchased those types of locomotives.  Once whistle-steam came out, many potential buyers refused to purchase locomotives the following year that didn't have the feature.  It was a cost-cutting measure on Lionel's part which failed miserably.  That was the spirit of my comment.

David

THAT I'll buy.

They are selling gimmicks. 

It definitely has slowed me down.. I look more often on the "for sale/ trade" and "wanted" sections of this forum than I ever used to.  Also the Bay is good if you don't get caught in a bidding war.  I know some items are "hot" sellers and I try to steer clear of them.  True, that some items like "custom made" items are expensive and can be way overpriced also but they aren't mass produced.  Those are what I look for mostly. I wish more members would be interested in trades, since most members good used items are in storage and probably will stay there.   

I don't get this most of us think the prices are high buy what you can .. As for these engine having selling gimmicks wow that's reaching .There  tring to make the trains have play factor. If your into them great !If your into ones that don't and you like watching yours go around in circles  with D battery's I your b units so be it. Man some of us are so afraid to get with times .. 

I looked back in my records and I paided 1100 bucks for a Lionel Hudson with Vandy tender and railsounds 1.0 in 1998.  I just purchased the ESE Hudson new with Legacy just under 1300.00.  So after 18 years with new bells and whistles(Yes I meant the pun) a increase of 200 bucks is not bad.  I can see the increase elsewhere like the 2000.00 Lionel Big Boy and the Diesels as mentioned above.   Normally I don't buy new or pre-order, the ESE Hudson is the first new engine I've purchased in over 5 years. 

"Get with the times"  ??   And buy junk??   There is such a thing as value in what you buy.  I haven't seen much new stuff that surpasses the old.

superwarp1 posted:

I looked back in my records and I paided 1100 bucks for a Lionel Hudson with Vandy tender and railsounds 1.0 in 1998.  I just purchased the ESE Hudson new with Legacy just under 1300.00.  So after 18 years with new bells and whistles(Yes I meant the pun) a increase of 200 bucks is not bad.  I can see the increase elsewhere like the 2000.00 Lionel Big Boy and the Diesels as mentioned above.   Normally I don't buy new or pre-order, the ESE Hudson is the first new engine I've purchased in over 5 years. 

If you look hard enough you can find the whole set for 1500 bucks .I truly don't think that's overpriced ..Now your correct on the es44s and most of the plastic engines 500 bucks for a s2 switcher is just stupid ..

Boy, there are a lot of grumpy people out there, If you can afford it and like what is being offered then buy it and have fun. If you don't like it don't buy it. 
I can not afford a $800.00 plus engine so I do not participate in this area, but I do not condemn what other people like and purchase.
I like simple prewar stuff and this is what I can afford. Most I spend on a prewar engine was $145.00 and I like it. Granted, it does not have all the bells/whistles/crew talk but it is fun (to me). The only new set I received as a Christmas present (from my wife) a couple of years ago was the "Christmas Story" train set (conventional and it probably has a can motor (love the movie).

This is a hobby and just have fun and enjoy and no matter what you have expose it to children and in bead it into their minds/imagination, get them involved.

I would have to say no, the prices are slowing me down.

Let me explain.

As an operator, I have no interest in collecting, or having highly detailed models that runs like crap.

In my experience, the new stuff runs so much nicer than the crap from the past. I will agree that when or if there is a problem it will be harder to fix, but then, I am not even slightly interested in running anything that I can fix if needed. To that end, there is not one single Lionel that I have had a problem with or one single over the counter purchase that I have had a problem with. All my problems came with other manufactures and the few mail order items I have had to purchase via the internet.

So no, dollar wise, I am not slowing down, if your measure of slowing down is “quantity” then yes, you could say I am slowing down.

Charlie

jim pastorius posted:

"Get with the times"  ??   And buy junk??   There is such a thing as value in what you buy.  I haven't seen much new stuff that surpasses the old.

Do you still drive a 1956 Oldsmobile too? My dad was the same way after he got his first legacy engine he sold all his post war stuff and he's 76 years old ..A legacy engine will run circles around a post war engine ..

Yes I have slowed, not because of price but because I don't like spending that much $$$ on something that can't/won't fix 3 years from now.

No.  Nobody is making or importing much of anything that I either want or need that might qualify as being "new". 

FWIW:  The condemnation, if there is any, is not directed towards hobbyists who buy the new stuff from Lionel.....at whatever cost.  Nor is any frustration aimed at any of the dealers, for the price increases are across the board.

Any angst is aimed squarely at Lionel.  And no angst is being aimed at MTH, 3rd Rail, Atlas, etc.  What does that tell you?

I just started a new thread that may be of interest to those following this one - A Vision for Lionel in the 21st Century

jojofry posted:

jim pastorius posted:

"Get with the times"  ??   And buy junk??   There is such a thing as value in what you buy.  I haven't seen much new stuff that surpasses the old.

Do you still drive a 1956 Oldsmobile too? My dad was the same way after he got his first legacy engine he sold all his post war stuff and he's 76 years old ..A legacy engine will run circles around a post war engine ..

Sure, I'll take that 56' Olds and park it with my 63' Vette!

PAUL ROMANO posted:

jojofry posted:

jim pastorius posted:

"Get with the times"  ??   And buy junk??   There is such a thing as value in what you buy.  I haven't seen much new stuff that surpasses the old.

Do you still drive a 1956 Oldsmobile too? My dad was the same way after he got his first legacy engine he sold all his post war stuff and he's 76 years old ..A legacy engine will run circles around a post war engine ..

Sure, I'll take that 56' Olds and park it with my 63' Vette!

 Much rather drive a 2016 Vette! It has Legacy.. Hehe

PAUL ROMANO posted:

jojofry posted:

jim pastorius posted:

"Get with the times"  ??   And buy junk??   There is such a thing as value in what you buy.  I haven't seen much new stuff that surpasses the old.

Do you still drive a 1956 Oldsmobile too? My dad was the same way after he got his first legacy engine he sold all his post war stuff and he's 76 years old ..A legacy engine will run circles around a post war engine ..

Sure, I'll take that 56' Olds and park it with my 63' Vette!

Split window or convertible?  

Billy,

   Sorry buddy I like the Legacy but not as much as a 63 Split Window Vette, or a 57 T-Bird, keep your 2016 Vette and the insurance payments that go with it.

PCRR/Dave

Billy posted:

PAUL ROMANO posted:

jojofry posted:

jim pastorius posted:

"Get with the times"  ??   And buy junk??   There is such a thing as value in what you buy.  I haven't seen much new stuff that surpasses the old.

Do you still drive a 1956 Oldsmobile too? My dad was the same way after he got his first legacy engine he sold all his post war stuff and he's 76 years old ..A legacy engine will run circles around a post war engine ..

Sure, I'll take that 56' Olds and park it with my 63' Vette!

 Much rather drive a 2016 Vette! It has Legacy.. Hehe

Agreed you can keep the 63. I take the zo7 with 650 hp and 26 mpg 

Funny how personal remarks creep in to these  threads.   Value for your dollar is the bottom line.  With BTO they are just acting as an agent for the mfr.

jojofry posted:

Billy posted:

PAUL ROMANO posted:

jojofry posted:

jim pastorius posted:

"Get with the times"  ??   And buy junk??   There is such a thing as value in what you buy.  I haven't seen much new stuff that surpasses the old.

Do you still drive a 1956 Oldsmobile too? My dad was the same way after he got his first legacy engine he sold all his post war stuff and he's 76 years old ..A legacy engine will run circles around a post war engine ..

Sure, I'll take that 56' Olds and park it with my 63' Vette!

 Much rather drive a 2016 Vette! It has Legacy.. Hehe

Agreed you can keep the 63. I take the zo7 with 650 hp and 26 mpg 

Picking between a '63 and 2016 Vette is like picking between the Dallas Cowboy Cheerleaders.  They're all pretty.....in their own way.  It's just personal preference, with no right or wrong answer.

jim pastorius posted:

Funny how personal remarks creep in to these  threads.   Value for your dollar is the bottom line.  With BTO they are just acting as an agent for the mfr.

No offense....but that makes no sense whatsoever.  Nor is that how the Agency concept works.

If you think BTO gives you any value whatsoever, just wait for the next round of Lionel product reissues to come out....and watch your perceived BTO values fall through the floor....which they will.  Eventually. 

Then, around the same time, Lionel will run out of parts for the first round of BTO products, thus dropping their value even more.

I have been buying more used stuff than new in recent years as you can find good deals on used stuff if you wait around and look for it. I think everything has gone up in the hobby, some more than others. Recent Lionel catalogs have had a semi tractor with trailer MSRP $89.99, to me thats just absurd. For that price they should be made of gold, plus they don't have mirrors on them! Don't get me wrong they are nice but I don't think they are worth $89.99. 

I too have over purchased and have sold off a lot of unneeded items.  Any future purchases will be used from the forum, train shows or other sites.  Cheers Jim

trainnut56 posted:

I too have over purchased and have sold off a lot of unneeded items.  Any future purchases will be used from the forum, train shows or other sites.  Cheers Jim

I have very much enjoyed Buying and selling on this Forum.  Get to meet nice people, move the inventory you're not using, and find the pieces you need.

A+ in that department.

Since I play with postwar for the greatest part the cost of modern O gauge isn't much of a concern to me. But what I like about Menards is they price their made in China things as made in China things unlike the other players in this market that price their made in China stuff as if it were made in America.

Bogie

RonH posted:

Boy, there are a lot of grumpy people out there, If you can afford it and like what is being offered then buy it and have fun. If you don't like it don't buy it. 
I can not afford a $800.00 plus engine so I do not participate in this area, but I do not condemn what other people like and purchase.
I like simple prewar stuff and this is what I can afford. Most I spend on a prewar engine was $145.00 and I like it. Granted, it does not have all the bells/whistles/crew talk but it is fun (to me). The only new set I received as a Christmas present (from my wife) a couple of years ago was the "Christmas Story" train set (conventional and it probably has a can motor (love the movie).

This is a hobby and just have fun and enjoy and no matter what you have expose it to children and in bead it into their minds/imagination, get them involved.

I agree Ron. I am one of the Grumpy guys here.I "Walk the Walk and Talk the Talk" till you bring me to a train show say Amherst, Ma later this Month and its all over! Then I end of spending $$$ on stuff I really don't need. I am all talk! LOL !!.. I cant help it.. I have to remind myself its only a Hobby or aka Addiction for me. . I remember my dear ole departed Dad complaining about 1930's Lionel pricing i.e. 700E engine           " more things change the more they remain the same"..

Berkshire President posted:

PAUL ROMANO posted:

jojofry posted:

jim pastorius posted:

"Get with the times"  ??   And buy junk??   There is such a thing as value in what you buy.  I haven't seen much new stuff that surpasses the old.

Do you still drive a 1956 Oldsmobile too? My dad was the same way after he got his first legacy engine he sold all his post war stuff and he's 76 years old ..A legacy engine will run circles around a post war engine ..

Sure, I'll take that 56' Olds and park it with my 63' Vette!

Split window or convertible?  

1963 Corvette "Fuel Injected" roadster and stable mate 1971 "454 Big Block" roadster.

That's a good looking garage, Paul.  LS-5 454?

Berkshire President posted:

That's a good looking garage, Paul.  LS-5 454?

Not to stray from topic, but yes original LS5 454.

Maybe not a '56 Olds, but when I was in high school I always wanted a '62 Olds Starfire, just something about those I liked back then? And like modern Legacy & Premier steamers today, those were always above my pay grade.