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"HONGZ" stands for HO scale, N scale, G scale, and Z scale.

Post your non-O scale stuff here!

so ive been at the point where im pretty much finished with benchwork on a pretty sizable basement layout originally planned for O scale. the past few days I have been seriously considering going the HO route instead. I have so far amassed a good amount of gargraves track and turnouts which none have been installed yet (some wire leads , but no other electrical equipment yet), so I figure now is the time to decide. my firs model RR experience back in elementary / middle school was a 4 x 8 HO , my friends back then had early lionel / tube track sets which really did nothing for me.. I guess I was attracted more towards the realism aspect. only in adulthood I have been turned on to the O scale and have been learning all I can at a furious pace in the past months. however , now that I have been learning more about todays HO and comparing what I want to do vs cost / availability etc etc, this has me about to switch sides. forgetting all the pitfalls of early HO , I want to field some questions to the forum for your expertise.

- what is the difference between the track "codes" ? what is the more popular / best to go with?

- what turnouts are considered DCC friendly and ready to install?

- I would plan on actuating switches locally via the remote switch as opposed to through a remote control , so is track power acceptable to run turnouts in the HO world?

- what is the best command control system to use with HO these days

- what wiring technique is used (star wiring etc etc) is it similar to O gauge DCS?

- what kind of power do I need to run a layout that would be approx. 60' long / 4 to 8 ft deep depending on area.

- using flextrack , what is the best method for cutting the rails?

- what exactly is the difference between a "DCC ready" / DCC / PS2/3  locomotive and the benefits of either? can an MTH proto loco be used on other DCC systems etc etc?

 

I know its many questions , but depending on the answers will most likely sway me.

 

thanks guys!

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Originally Posted by domer94:

These aren't the last word and I'm far from an expert, but here goes:

 

 

- what is the difference between the track "codes" ? what is the more popular / best to go with?

Code refers to the height of the rail in thousands of an inch.  Code 100 is .100" high, code 83 is .083" high, code 70 is .070" high, etc.  Code 100 used to be the defacto standard for HO.  Now it's generally code 83.

 

- what turnouts are considered DCC friendly and ready to install?

Not sure on this one.  Walthers, Atlas, should have "DCC friendly" turnouts.  My layout (S scale) is 30 years old and uses "unfriendly" turnouts.  I haven't had any issues so far.

 

- I would plan on actuating switches locally via the remote switch as opposed to through a remote control , so is track power acceptable to run turnouts in the HO world?

I would suggest a using separate power supply for powering switch machines.

 

- what is the best command control system to use with HO these days

DCC.  There are some others emerging, but DCC has been the standard for years.  Moving into the HO market pretty much required MTH to make his electronic DCC compatible.

 

- what wiring technique is used (star wiring etc etc) is it similar to O gauge DCS?

I'm goning to go out on a limb and say most folks run a buss wires for DCC. 

 

Personally, I wired my DCC system (MRC Prodigy) into my block toggles and I can switch between DCC and straight DC.

 

- what kind of power do I need to run a layout that would be approx. 60' long / 4 to 8 ft deep depending on area.

Probably something with a 3-5 amp DCC supply.

 

- using flextrack , what is the best method for cutting the rails?

Rail nippers or a cut-off wheel in a motor tool.

 

- what exactly is the difference between a "DCC ready" / DCC / PS2/3  locomotive and the benefits of either? can an MTH proto loco be used on other DCC systems etc etc?

DCC ready mean there is a strandard socket installed so a DCC decoder can be installed with no/minimal soldering.  Most MTH HO will run on DCC, some early locomotives were offered DCC ready because the HO world isn't super interested in MTH's proprietary DCS system.   

 

Rusty

 

 

 

Last edited by Rusty Traque

Maybe you're trying to do too much too soon. If you're not even sure about going with O-gauge, build a smaller project first which can serve as a module unit for future expansion.

 

It's easy to get the impression from hobby magazines and forums that you have to have a big layout to have a good layout. Don't get sucked into that train of thought. 

 

Trying to do too much can lead to burnout because it's a long ways to see light at the end of the tunnel. Just my two cents worth.

Last edited by Ace

I hear ya...  problem is I have a good size unfinished basement (that last winter I finally decided to do something with).. and 99% of the benchwork is completed already.  now its time to roll up the sleeves and get to putting down some track (scale to be determined). I have some decent track plans floating around in my head , and of course HO means I can do it more to my liking.

Since you already have bench work in place (flat?), I would suggest using one of the sectional track systems so you can start out with a smaller plan, try it out and revise and modify and expand it progressively. If you commit to flextrack that has to be cut and nailed down, you have less freedom to make changes.

 

I have HO layouts also ... your choice of scale will tend to follow whatever you like the best and the supplies on hand. Maybe do some of both, like I do !

Originally Posted by Rusty Traque:  thanks! please note my additional questions in red
Originally Posted by domer94:

These aren't the last word and I'm far from an expert, but here goes:

 

 

- what is the difference between the track "codes" ? what is the more popular / best to go with?

Code refers to the height of the rail in thousands of an inch.  Code 100 is .100" high, code 83 is .083" high, code 70 is .070" high, etc.  Code 100 used to be the defacto standard for HO.  Now it's generally code 83.

- so would the most of you recommend the code 83 as far as purchasing track / turnouts? also steel or nickel /steel? I imagine I should keep it homogenious. I already noticed a vast amount of code 100 on ebay and such.

 

- what turnouts are considered DCC friendly and ready to install?

Not sure on this one.  Walthers, Atlas, should have "DCC friendly" turnouts.  My layout (S scale) is 30 years old and uses "unfriendly" turnouts.  I haven't had any issues so far.

so an "unfriendly " wouldn't necessarily cause stalls and power deadspots / shorts?i see some described as having "insulated frogs". is this something to look for?

 

- I would plan on actuating switches locally via the remote switch as opposed to through a remote control , so is track power acceptable to run turnouts in the HO world?

I would suggest a using separate power supply for powering switch machines.

I would estimate close to 45 switches on my plan, any powerpack recommendations? power bricks etc ?

 

- what is the best command control system to use with HO these days

DCC.  There are some others emerging, but DCC has been the standard for years.  Moving into the HO market pretty much required MTH to make his electronic DCC compatible.

 please recommend the most reliable / common system used. I assume these have remote controls etc etc? I want to price out these items

 

 

- what wiring technique is used (star wiring etc etc) is it similar to O gauge DCS?

I'm goning to go out on a limb and say most folks run a buss wires for DCC. 

 

Personally, I wired my DCC system (MRC Prodigy) into my block toggles and I can switch between DCC and straight DC.

 

- what kind of power do I need to run a layout that would be approx. 60' long / 4 to 8 ft deep depending on area.

Probably something with a 3-5 amp DCC supply.

please give me some powerpack examples to look at. I would be running maybe 3 to 4 trains at once

 

- using flextrack , what is the best method for cutting the rails?

Rail nippers or a cut-off wheel in a motor tool.

 

- what exactly is the difference between a "DCC ready" / DCC / PS2/3  locomotive and the benefits of either? can an MTH proto loco be used on other DCC systems etc etc?

DCC ready mean there is a strandard socket installed so a DCC decoder can be installed with no/minimal soldering.  Most MTH HO will run on DCC, some early locomotives were offered DCC ready because the HO world isn't super interested in MTH's proprietary DCS system.   

are these proto / DCC locos all equipped with sound by design? do any have smoke? what about remote couplers?

 

also , on the subject of couplers , I see kadee knuckles / standards being talked about. what does the lions share come with these days?

 

Rusty

 

 

 

 

Ace makes some good points. if it was me I would lay a small "layout" on the new benchwork but only use a small proportion - then have a "play" and see how I felt.

 

You could almost do the same with modern Ho on another section - compare both and decide how you feel.

 

No right or wrong answers - its your railway!!

 

For what its worth I did just this to test the water in 0

 

MIKE

 

Couple of quick answers:

 

99.99% HO track is nickle silver rail these days.

 

Can't really say more on friendly vs. non-friendly.  Just from my experience I haven't had any issues with my 30 year old "non-friendly" turnouts.  hopefully, someone else will chime in.

 

Powering the switch machines will depend on the brand.  A twin coil machine will work on AC while the motors some use need DC.

 

they're all pretty much the same reliability wise.  But they all have their quirks.  MRC Prodigy, NCE and Digitracks are the big 3.  Tony's Train Exchange is a good place to do research.  Same for the power supplies for these systems.

 

I think by now, all of MTH's locomotives come equipped with the DCC compatible DSC electronics.  They have electronic couplers and most steam if not all have smoke.

 

Kadee is the gold standard. There are now several copies out there since the patents expired some years ago.  Athearn and Bachmann use McHenry couplers, not sure about the other makers.

 

As you can see, there's not going to be one simple answer to your questions.  It's going to take a little time to sort things out.

 

Rusty

 

 

Last edited by Rusty Traque

You're talking a major decision here.  I've been there many times.  First thing learned from experience:

 

DON'T RUSH THE DECISION PROCESS.

 

What I've done in the past:

 

Picked an engine and a few cars to purchase in the target scale.  Bought some track (in the case of HO, you can speed this up with sectional track) and a couple of switches.  Laid some track and the switches and experimented to see how nicely the engine performed at slow speeds/etc, how the cars tracked through the switches of choice (both trailing through and shoving facing point), and overall get a feel for the size of the scale.

 

Doing the above first MAY save you the money of converting to HO, only to see that you miss the size and heft of O scale.

 

By the way, most DCC equipped locomotives will quickly default to DC input when placed on DC powered rails and operate w/sounds on straight DC.  This way you don't have to invest in a DCC system to try out HO... just an reasonably priced MRC "Tech" type of power pack that can later be used to power your switches (turnouts as most model railroaders call them) if you decide to go with HO.

 

As for Code 100 vs Code 83: We're talking the height of the rail here. Code 100 is the rough equivalent to "Hi Rail" in HO and Code 83 begins to enter the "scale size rail" realm.

 

Best of luck in your quest!

thanks brother. I picked up a piece of 83 flex track, some reading materials to learn some stuff, and a railcar this afternoon at my LHS. I will be going down to the train table tonight to get a feel and do some brainstorming. as far as code 100 , I held the two side by side and I really could hardly tell the difference. would the code 100 be more plentyfull / provide a better running train?

Originally Posted by Rusty Traque:

Couple of quick answers:

 

99.99% HO track is nickle silver rail these days.

 

Can't really say more on friendly vs. non-friendly.  Just from my experience I haven't had any issues with my 30 year old "non-friendly" turnouts.  hopefully, someone else will chime in.

 

Powering the switch machines will depend on the brand.  A twin coil machine will work on AC while the motors some use need DC.

 

they're all pretty much the same reliability wise.  But they all have their quirks.  MRC Prodigy, NCE and Digitracks are the big 3.  Tony's Train Exchange is a good place to do research.  Same for the power supplies for these systems.

 

I think by now, all of MTH's locomotives come equipped with the DCC compatible DSC electronics.  They have electronic couplers and most steam if not all have smoke.

 

Kadee is the gold standard. There are now several copies out there since the patents expired some years ago.  Athearn and Bachmann use McHenry couplers, not sure about the other makers.

 

As you can see, there's not going to be one simple answer to your questions.  It's going to take a little time to sort things out.

 

Rusty

 

 

rusty , I see the prodigy "express"  "advance" and "elite".  is there any recommendation for one above the other?

Originally Posted by domer94:
 
Hi Domer:
 
I'll provide my feedback embedded in your note below.  You have already received excellent advice, but I'll pile on with what I know.
 
Of the advice you have gotten, start small is great advice until you know where you want to go.  A 60 foot long layout is a HUGE endeavor. 
 
I would also recommend that you stay with 30" wide benchwork maximum as much as possible, and if you are going to have visitors, or do operations with a group, keep your aisle with to 3 foot minimum.  This is not always possible. 
 
Use backdrops to get the illusion of depth, instead of modeling distant mountains in 8 foot depth scenes.  Waste of space IMHO.
 
Regards,
Jerry
 

so ive been at the point where im pretty much finished with benchwork on a pretty sizable basement layout originally planned for O scale. the past few days I have been seriously considering going the HO route instead. I have so far amassed a good amount of gargraves track and turnouts which none have been installed yet (some wire leads , but no other electrical equipment yet), so I figure now is the time to decide. my firs model RR experience back in elementary / middle school was a 4 x 8 HO , my friends back then had early lionel / tube track sets which really did nothing for me.. I guess I was attracted more towards the realism aspect. only in adulthood I have been turned on to the O scale and have been learning all I can at a furious pace in the past months. however , now that I have been learning more about todays HO and comparing what I want to do vs cost / availability etc etc, this has me about to switch sides. forgetting all the pitfalls of early HO , I want to field some questions to the forum for your expertise.

- what is the difference between the track "codes" ? what is the more popular / best to go with?

 

As stated by others, the "Code" is the rail height in thousanths of an inch.  So, code 83 is 0.083" high.  This is the size that I use. 

 

There is nothing wrong with Code 100 either (0.100" high), but the Code 83 looks better. 

 

Another popular track size is Code 70.  Some people model the following:

 

Code 83 for the main line

Code 70 for passing sidings

Code 55 (which they hand lay)  on sidings, and industrial trackage.

 

Looks great.  I stick with code 83 for everything.  Once it is weathered, in my opinion, it looks fine.  My commercial track of choice is Peco.  I am also using Walthers Shinohara switches.  I wish I went with Peco instead.  I really like the look of Peco switches, and their quality is second to none.  So far, I am impressed with the Shinohara DCC friendly switches, but I don't know how they will perform over the long term. 

 

- what turnouts are considered DCC friendly and ready to install?

The three switch manufacturers that I would choose from are Atlas, Peco, and Shinohara (they are the only ones I have experience with, other than Micro Engineering, and I HATE their switches).  All three offer DCC friendly switches, the Peco "Insulfrog" would be my choice, with the frog powered thru auxilary contacts on your switch machine, which you would do on the other two.

 

- I would plan on actuating switches locally via the remote switch as opposed to through a remote control , so is track power acceptable to run turnouts in the HO world?

 

Under the scheme that you are discussing, I would route a separate 12 VDC bus with it's own power supply to control the switches, thru a DPDT toggle switch.  Use Tortoise or SwitchMaster switch machines (SwitchMaster machines require you to add the separate aux contacts, which is a bit of a PITA). 

 

 

 

- what is the best command control system to use with HO these days

 

DCC is the way to go.  I utilize NCE DCC, and for a layout the size you are looking at, you want to utilize the 5 amp power supply.  You may need more than one power booster, and you should break your bus wiring into districts, and utilize electronic circuit breakers for each district. 

 

I've run layouts with NCE, Digitrax, and MRC, and they are all great systems.  No experience with Atlas, Lenz, or Easy DCC. 

 

- what wiring technique is used (star wiring etc etc) is it similar to O gauge DCS?

 

You do NOT need to star wire DCC.  I have a basement sized HO railroad, what I do is the following:

 

10 gauge wire from the power booster out to my powershield circuit breakers, which are in close proximity to the layout (probably overkill, but I had the 10 gauge wire). 

 

14 gauge bus wiring along your power districts. 

 

I utilize 16 gauge to the track, but I LIKE good strong solder joints.  Once the track is weathered, the size of my track feeder attachments are not noticeable. You could get by with 18 to 20 gauge on the feeders.  

 

I also utilize 3M insulation displacement connectors for the bus to feeder wiring.  I will NEVER solder a feeder connection to a bus wire ever again.

 

- what kind of power do I need to run a layout that would be approx. 60' long / 4 to 8 ft deep depending on area.

 

The 60 feet long is a great plan.  The 4 to 8 feet deep is in my opinion a mistake.  I am a big believer in "shelf" style layouts, and the deepest portion on my layout, with the exception being the ends of my shelves where the 36" plus radius is located is 30" deep.  That is far as the average human can reach without standing and leaning over the layout

 

I HATE duckunders, and crawling on floors to get access to hatches within the layout, but then again, based on your career, I think you are in far better shape than I am. 

 

- using flextrack , what is the best method for cutting the rails?

 

I prefer using a cut-off wheel in my Dremel.  I've used rail nippers (Xuron), and they work fine too.  Try both, determine what works best for you. 

 

- what exactly is the difference between a "DCC ready" / DCC / PS2/3  locomotive and the benefits of either? can an MTH proto loco be used on other DCC systems etc etc?

 

DCC ready means there is a plug wired into the locomotive that you would install a DCC decoder into with the similar plug.  These are typically non-sound locomotives.   Atlas "Silver" locos fall into this category.

 

DCC equipped locomotives may be just motor and light control, or most today are motor / light / sound decoders.  Atlas "Gold" locomotives fall into this category.

 

MTH PS3 decoders are roughly equivalent to a DCC equipped sound / light / smoke / and motor control decoder.  I don't own any MTH HO product, so I cannot say how good they work.  I've seen them in operation, and they work in DCC mode just like most other locomotives, with the only limitations being in programming CVs (at least on their earlier releases).  I'm considering purchasing two of their upcoming DM&IR M-4 Yellowstones, saw them at Portland, looked good, good price. 

 

I know its many questions , but depending on the answers will most likely sway me.

 

thanks guys!

 

 

Originally Posted by domer94:
 

rusty , I see the prodigy "express"  "advance" and "elite".  is there any recommendation for one above the other?

Here's a LINK to MRC's page that explains the differences.  Function-wise they're all the same.  The differences are in power and expandability.

 

One really neat feature about the Prodigy system is the basic operational instructions are printed on the back of the controller, so even a caveman like me can use it.

 

I have a Prodigy system that I upgraded to the wireless handheld.  I must say that there was a problem that developed with a range of addresses. 

 

I was getting pretty upset at the time and MRC bent over backwards to correct the problem, including paying shipping both ways several times.  They even upgraded the system to Prodigy 2 at no cost to me. 

 

It works fine now and serves my needs nicely.

 

Rusty

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