Atlas 2-rail on 3-rail track?

Ponz posted:

Will Atlas two rail cars run on my Gargraves track?

Ponz

Yes, as long as you don't have any turnouts. The scale wheel flanges on 2-Rail SCALE wheels generally do NOT like to negotiate 3-Rail turnouts, which are designed for the large "pizza cutter" wheel flanges.

EDIT:

Also, Atlas 2-Rail SCALE freight cars are equipped with body mounted O Scale style couplers, and although the Atlas version will couple to Kadee O Scale style couplers, they probably will NOT couple to many of the various manufacturers big "lobster claw" couplers, normally found on 3-Rail rolling stock & locomotives.

I have a couple of cabooses that i have not converted to 3 rail yet and they go around my layout wich is all Gargraves flex and Ross switches. for the most part it spills the conductors coffee but they do stay on the rails. not sure if a big string of them would do the same. they have not caused me enough trouble to move them up on my to do list. Rick

Hot Water posted:

Ponz posted:

Will Atlas two rail cars run on my Gargraves track?

Ponz

Yes, as long as you don't have any turnouts. The scale wheel flanges on 2-Rail SCALE wheels generally do NOT like to negotiate 3-Rail turnouts, which are designed for the large "pizza cutter" wheel flanges.

EDIT:

Also, Atlas 2-Rail SCALE freight cars are equipped with body mounted O Scale style couplers, and although the Atlas version will couple to Kadee O Scale style couplers, they probably will NOT couple to many of the various manufacturers big "lobster claw" couplers, normally found on 3-Rail rolling stock & locomotives.

So - Mixing Pecos River and Atlas cars is a crap shoot or not at all advisable?

Ponz

Rick Rubino posted:

I have a couple of cabooses that i have not converted to 3 rail yet and they go around my layout wich is all Gargraves flex and Ross switches. for the most part it spills the conductors coffee but they do stay on the rails. not sure if a big string of them would do the same. they have not caused me enough trouble to move them up on my to do list. Rick

Rick - what involves the conversion?  Swapping trucks?

Ponz

I have no problems running *most* atlas 2R cars on 3 rail track, including tube top. Some of the longer, low riding cars like the bulkhead flats don't like it, but I suspect the limit is the coupler swing since the trucks are quite inboard of the car ends. The bigger the curve radius, the more reliable it is. 

Ponz posted:

Rick Rubino posted:

I have a couple of cabooses that i have not converted to 3 rail yet and they go around my layout wich is all Gargraves flex and Ross switches. for the most part it spills the conductors coffee but they do stay on the rails. not sure if a big string of them would do the same. they have not caused me enough trouble to move them up on my to do list. Rick

Rick - what involves the conversion?  Swapping trucks?

Ponz

Yes, you'll have to swap out the 2-Rail trucks and body mounted O-Scale coupler, to 3-Rail/Hi-Rail trucks that have the big "claw" coupler attached. Especially if you have sharper than 072 curves on your layout.

Hot Water posted:

Ponz posted:

Rick Rubino posted:

I have a couple of cabooses that i have not converted to 3 rail yet and they go around my layout wich is all Gargraves flex and Ross switches. for the most part it spills the conductors coffee but they do stay on the rails. not sure if a big string of them would do the same. they have not caused me enough trouble to move them up on my to do list. Rick

Rick - what involves the conversion?  Swapping trucks?

Ponz

Yes, you'll have to swap out the 2-Rail trucks and body mounted O-Scale coupler, to 3-Rail/Hi-Rail trucks that have the big "claw" coupler attached. Especially if you have sharper than 072 curves on your layout.

Do you think it's worth it from a cost perspective?

Ponz

Ponz posted:

Hot Water posted:

Ponz posted:

Rick Rubino posted:

I have a couple of cabooses that i have not converted to 3 rail yet and they go around my layout wich is all Gargraves flex and Ross switches. for the most part it spills the conductors coffee but they do stay on the rails. not sure if a big string of them would do the same. they have not caused me enough trouble to move them up on my to do list. Rick

Rick - what involves the conversion?  Swapping trucks?

Ponz

Yes, you'll have to swap out the 2-Rail trucks and body mounted O-Scale coupler, to 3-Rail/Hi-Rail trucks that have the big "claw" coupler attached. Especially if you have sharper than 072 curves on your layout.

Do you think it's worth it from a cost perspective?

Ponz

Sure. Both Atlas and Pacos River, among others, offer some excellent SCALE 2-Rail O SCALE freight cars, that are easily converted to 3-Rail. But then if you are concerned about "cost", maybe you shouldn't be considering any of the 2-Rail SCALE equipment available.

I ran various 2 rail cars on Gargraves 3 rail track "back in the day", (70s) in cluding many switches.    The Gargraves track at that time had a very flat top rail, and the two rail cars tracked fine.    I think I glued a 1/16 inch square piece to the top of the guard rails in at least some of teh switches to guide the wheels through the frogs.    I used CLW and Kadee couplers body mounted and 36 inch radius curves.    I think all cars were 40 ft or less.      

I also ran some 2 rail locos on that track.   Two I remember were an All Nation 4-4-0 I built and a GEM PRR 0-6-0.    No problem.   I had to put rollers on the tenders for pickup.

The cars did bounce a bit in the frogs of course.

prrjim posted:

I ran various 2 rail cars on Gargraves 3 rail track "back in the day", (70s) in cluding many switches.    The Gargraves track at that time had a very flat top rail, and the two rail cars tracked fine.    I think I glued a 1/16 inch square piece to the top of the guard rails in at least some of teh switches to guide the wheels through the frogs.    I used CLW and Kadee couplers body mounted and 36 inch radius curves.    I think all cars were 40 ft or less.      

I also ran some 2 rail locos on that track.   Two I remember were an All Nation 4-4-0 I built and a GEM PRR 0-6-0.    No problem.   I had to put rollers on the tenders for pickup.

The cars did bounce a bit in the frogs of course.

That's encouraging.  Thanks for the tip!

Ponz

The quick answer is yes, but there are some caveats. I almost exclusively buy 2-rail cars and MTH scale-wheeled locomotives. I have been converting several of the cars in my stable to 2-rail. The benefit is some of my equipment finds bad spots in the layout. The down side is that I don't run some of my equipment at the club.

In general, Gargraves track supports 2-rail equipment just fine. Atlas and ScaleTrax do as well. FasTrack, not as well, but the rail head is a bit more rounded.

As mentioned above, turnouts are an issue. However, my personal experience is that sharp, curve-replacement turnouts (aka O-72) are problematic as the arc of the curve extends through the gap in the frog and scale wheels will often pick the frog because the gap in the guard rails is too wide (designed for 3-rail flanges). At AGHR, we use #5 Ross turnouts (11-degree) and on our #8 curved turnout, we added a "frog point" to close the gap and allow scale wheels to pass through without incident. I routinely run 2-rail cars on the club layout and Weaver cars with the equalized plastic trucks seem to have issues in some spots. Inspection of the two problem areas showed that the Gargraves flex track was out of gauge (too wide) in some spots and the Ross turnout that was having a problem had a worn closure rail (between the points and the frog). Atlas 2-rail trucks are more rigid and seem to operate with more stability on the layout, but a couple of my Atlas cars had a slight twist in the under-frame that caused derailments.

Another caveat is you need to be weight conscious in setting up the train since your flanges aren't as deep. A very heavy train may string line your forward cars if they're too light.

One thing you need to be aware of if you're running MTH scale-wheeled locomotives is that your track needs to be even. A high center rail (or lowered running rail) will cause the locomotive to ride up on its rollers and derail. Six-axle-locomotives with longer truck wheelbases are particularly sensitive to this -- four-axles, not so much. We have a section of the layout that we're going to re-lay with Atlas curves because thermal expansion/contraction over the years has distorted the track bed.

Lastly, the distance between the end sills of the car and the truck centers is an issue as the ends of the car swing out farther from center in curves. You'll need to more strictly adhere to the minimum radius requirements of the 2-rail cars.

I have several videos of 2-rail equipment running on the club layout.

Hope this helps.

There is running trains and there is running trains.  If you want to have a "maybe I won't have any problems" layout, go ahead and run three rail plastic wheel trucks on two rail track and run two rail trucks on three rail track.  If you want reliable running, sit down and think about why there are two rail trucks and why there are three rail trucks.  One of the answers is reliability.  Sooner or later someone is going to back a boxcar with two rail trucks through a three rail switch and it will derail.  If you want a shlock layout like that, go ahead and try to outsmart everyone else  in the hobby.  If you want a nice, reliable layout you might consider sticking with the proper trucks for the rail you have chosen to use.  Pay your money and take your choice.    John in Lansing, ILL

rattler21 posted:

There is running trains and there is running trains.  If you want to have a "maybe I won't have any problems" layout, go ahead and run three rail plastic wheel trucks on two rail track and run two rail trucks on three rail track.  If you want reliable running, sit down and think about why there are two rail trucks and why there are three rail trucks.  One of the answers is reliability.  Sooner or later someone is going to back a boxcar with two rail trucks through a three rail switch and it will derail.  If you want a shlock layout like that, go ahead and try to outsmart everyone else  in the hobby.  If you want a nice, reliable layout you might consider sticking with the proper trucks for the rail you have chosen to use.  Pay your money and take your choice.    John in Lansing, ILL

Hi John,

I'm avoiding the two rail cars, but wanted to be reassured since I'm seeing a few at reasonable prices on eBay.

Ponz

AGHRMatt posted:

The quick answer is yes, but there are some caveats. I almost exclusively buy 2-rail cars and MTH scale-wheeled locomotives. I have been converting several of the cars in my stable to 2-rail. The benefit is some of my equipment finds bad spots in the layout. The down side is that I don't run some of my equipment at the club.

In general, Gargraves track supports 2-rail equipment just fine. Atlas and ScaleTrax do as well. FasTrack, not as well, but the rail head is a bit more rounded.

As mentioned above, turnouts are an issue. However, my personal experience is that sharp, curve-replacement turnouts (aka O-72) are problematic as the arc of the curve extends through the gap in the frog and scale wheels will often pick the frog because the gap in the guard rails is too wide (designed for 3-rail flanges). At AGHR, we use #5 Ross turnouts (11-degree) and on our #8 curved turnout, we added a "frog point" to close the gap and allow scale wheels to pass through without incident. I routinely run 2-rail cars on the club layout and Weaver cars with the equalized plastic trucks seem to have issues in some spots. Inspection of the two problem areas showed that the Gargraves flex track was out of gauge (too wide) in some spots and the Ross turnout that was having a problem had a worn closure rail (between the points and the frog). Atlas 2-rail trucks are more rigid and seem to operate with more stability on the layout, but a couple of my Atlas cars had a slight twist in the under-frame that caused derailments.

Another caveat is you need to be weight conscious in setting up the train since your flanges aren't as deep. A very heavy train may string line your forward cars if they're too light.

One thing you need to be aware of if you're running MTH scale-wheeled locomotives is that your track needs to be even. A high center rail (or lowered running rail) will cause the locomotive to ride up on its rollers and derail. Six-axle-locomotives with longer truck wheelbases are particularly sensitive to this -- four-axles, not so much. We have a section of the layout that we're going to re-lay with Atlas curves because thermal expansion/contraction over the years has distorted the track bed.

Lastly, the distance between the end sills of the car and the truck centers is an issue as the ends of the car swing out farther from center in curves. You'll need to more strictly adhere to the minimum radius requirements of the 2-rail cars.

I have several videos of 2-rail equipment running on the club layout.

Hope this helps.

That's a mouthful Matt, but I get the picture.  However, I don't get this point, "my personal experience is that sharp, curve-replacement turnouts (aka O-72) are problematic as the arc of the curve extends through the gap in the frog "

O-72 is a gentle curve, right?

Thanks - Ponz

"O-72 is a gentle curve, right?"

PONZ -

Only by 3RO standards; it is a 36 inch radius (which gives a 72 inch diameter circle, of course). By most other standards - especially the real world -  it is a pretty sharp curve. Our 3RO equipment is so engineered as to be able to take such ridiculous curves - and much sharper! - and still survive, if often less than gracefully.

The numbers mean something - in 3RO we still use the diameter as a reference; all other scales -  including 2RO - use the radius figure. So, 036 is a 3-foot circle, 072 is a 6-foot circle, and so forth, with the other numbers (042, 063, 081, etc) falling where expected.  

(027 curve-capable equipment is amazing - this is actually a tighter curve than most HO equipment can manage. So you can get a "sort of O-scale" layout in a smaller space than an HO layout, at least as measured by external dimensions.) 

PONZ,

Before you get too deep into these 2-Rail SCALE freight cars, you might want to let everyone exactly how big your layout is, and what are your sharpest curves & turnouts.

Ponz posted:

AGHRMatt posted:

...

That's a mouthful Matt, but I get the picture.  However, I don't get this point, "my personal experience is that sharp, curve-replacement turnouts (aka O-72) are problematic as the arc of the curve extends through the gap in the frog "

O-72 is a gentle curve, right?

Thanks - Ponz

As D500 said, O-72 is 36" radius which is actually sharp (check Atlas specs on 3-rail vs. 2-rail equipment). Where the problem is, though, is that the frog of an O-72 turnout is part of a curve, while with a numbered turnout, the only curved part (model railroad) is the points; the rest of the turnout is straight, so the equipment sees a straight section of track that happens to have a small break in it (until you get into larger numbered turnouts).

As John said, you can introduce operating difficulties into the mix, but (speaking only for myself) I like the appearance of the equipment and the problem rate is low compared to the amount of equipment being used, plus I'm better able to find problem areas of the layout that do affect operation of 3-rail equipment.

Hot Water posted:

PONZ,

Before you get too deep into these 2-Rail SCALE freight cars, you might want to let everyone exactly how big your layout is, and what are your sharpest curves & turnouts.

HW,

The board is 8 x 8.5.  That's an outer loop and a Reverse Y on the inside.

I have already ran a couple of Pecos River Cars on the reverse Y and, surprisingly, they make it, albeit a little rough over those Gargrave switches. I was pleasantly surprised because I was prepared to only run the larger cars on the outer loop to begin with. 

I know I can't go nuts with these cars.  I'd like to make up a consist of 8 or 10 cars.

Ponz