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Originally Posted by johnshorse:

There is a point when it's time to "put the bat down" and stop buying.  I have done that and got into building wooden craftsman kits from Bar Mills and others.  Much more satisfaction than just buying more and more rolling stock>.......

So true... And that's why I've drawn the line and feel so strongly about some of these price increases.  I could stop buying new locomotives and rolling stock TODAY, and just focus on building the layout... and I'd still be busy and content in this hobby.  And I have a gut feel I'm not alone in this thinking.  

 

David 

 

I think that if I was at the point in my collection where I had say 5 newer engines and 10 cars per engine, then I possibly would purchase a few of these. If your putting together a modern set these cars look incredible, I just don't think too many of us are going to bite at this price.

 

Atlas sure puts together a great looking car though.

This isn't a car I would buy, but then again, it isn't what I am looking for (and facing 4 years of tuition at a conservatory for my son, including a new instrument that will cost what a medium priced car does these not, not likely to be able to afford, either). It looks  like a finely detailed model that by its very nature appeals to a certain segment of the community. With low volume things like toy trains, it is unlikely this is gouging or represents ridiculous margins and profits, to tool something like this, the design work, the building of the tooling to make it, is very expensive and fine details make it even more expensive (put it this way, a boxcar at its simplest is a plastic box with wheelsets put on it, but as you put details on, it becomes more expensive). This is a fixed cost, that costs the same whether you make 10 or 10,000. If it costs 10 grand to build the tooling, and you sell 10 cars, each would carry a 1000 dollar premium to break even (assuming that is the only cost, it wouldn't be).This is a very broad example, but the problem Atlas faces is that even if instead of targeting let's say 10 sales, they target 100 units, there is still a premium of 100/car.

 

Conventional wisdom would be if they charged 50 bucks a unit, they would be able to sell a lot more and break even on the costs,but there are problems with this.For one, it may not be possible to make something detailed in those kind of numbers, and secondly, even with a lowered price they may not be able to sell enough.

Given the size of the toy train market, I think this represents low volumes on a highly detailed unit, not gouging.

 

This as compared to the Iphone, that sells for 650 bucks and costs 140 bucks to manufacture (labor is about 30 or 40 bucks of that, most of it is the custom chip sets), that has crazy high margins, and they sell millions of them a year.

Most of you who post erroneously believe that the price is always based on the item's cost.

IT ISN'T!

The price is whatever  a certain number of people are willing to pay for any item, and the "certain number" is the targeted quantity of pieces that are being planned for production.

This is true for every consumer driven item. Should we really believe that the CHANGE in cost for an Apple iPhone 5 is $199 more than an iPhone 4, which is "given" with a new account or upgrade?

In the case of the Atlas tank car, I am certain that they identified a sale to "X" number of purchasers. If the actual quantity of purchasers is less than X by a considerable margin, this tank car will "blow out".

And the "blow out" price will permit Atlas to, at a minimum, recover its original cost for this particular project.

How fast do they need to sell all the new Tank Cars?

 

Blow-outs for historically accurate model trains sounds like people are being impatient.

 

Many locomotive and freight cars are based on real ones that were out of service 60 years ago. That is a long time to wait for your favorite models. 

 

At least this "new" tank car is a model that has been built and in service since 1986.

 

Andrew

I’m sure dealers will be stuck with those just like all the other high priced 60-70 dollar Atlas cars on ebay. I see the same ones re-listed month after month.

When cars went over 35, many stopped buying.

Another modern 80’s Atlas car not needed by most.

 

At least the new Lionels have real sounding rail sounds built in as all O scale cars should!

 

I think these are AWESOME! Definitely worth the money, especially compared to what their competitors are making.  They look prototypical and represent a car that no one has ever made in o-scale before.

 

 

 

The new Lionel ones are pretty cool too, though. 

 

Recently I have been seeing Lionel and now Atlas finally making tank cars that resemble what is currently on the rails.

 

 

The MTH ones all are pretty lousy, largely because they run ridiculously high off the rails.  Too short also and most of the MTH schemes are not prototypical.

Originally Posted by breezinup:
Originally Posted by Charlesp34:

There are always alternatives...click on link below.

 

http://www.mthtrains.com/content/30-73391

 

Unfortunately, that's like comparing a Timex and a Rolex.

 

...

I would agree 1,000% with this.  If we're gonna compare the Atlas-O tanker to anything else out there right now, a fair comparison point would be the Lionel 30K Ethanol tankers of a few years ago (done in VisionLine with Sound, and non-VisionLine without sound) along with the newly announced roadnames of Ethanol tankers in the 2013 catalog.  Ironically, the VisionLine version of Lionel tankers with sound (in 2010) MSRP'd at LESS than the MSRP of the Atlas-O tankers now without sound.

 

The earlier comment referring to the only comparison right now in the market being brass rolling stock is a bit of an overstatement IMHO.

 

David

Originally Posted by bigkid:
... Blowout prices from retailers is them admitting they cannot sell the unit. and they take a loss on the item because the cost of inventory is such their losses increase the longer they keep it on the shelves. ...

Just to be clear on this point who the "retailers" are.  I would suggest that if by retailers you're referring to dealers, then some of the dealers may acquire new "blow-out" stock from distributors or the importers directly at the newer and lower cost point -- allowing them to offer blow-out merchandise without losing money on the deal.  As an example of this, when Charlie Ro (among others) offered Lionel's EM-1's for $699 a while ago, do you really think Charlie was taking a beating on those?  Possible, but I tend to think he obtained another pallet of product from Lionel at a much lower internal cost, thereby allowing him to sell the locomotives at $699 and still make $$$ on each sale.

 

Now whether Lionel (as the importer) was losing money on the deal is another debate.  But it's quite possible that even Lionel was still making a few -- definitely not a lot of -- dollars at the blow-out price point.  And if that were the case, then it would give us a peek into the amount of profit built into those product's regular prices. 

 

As Sean mentioned in an earlier post, it seems Atlas-O operates on a different strategy level in terms of quantity of product produced.  Whereas Lionel periodically delivers locomotives within weeks of a catalog's availability, Atlas-O on the other hand pretty much delivers product MONTHS or even a year+ out from the catalog's release -- lending plausibility to the thinking that Atlas-O throttles its production quantities much closer to orders from it's dealer network.  In the latter case, the dealers are left holding the risk of product that doesn't sell.  That's most likely why we don't see wide-scale blow-outs with Atlas-O product that we see quite regular with Lionel.

 

Regarding the $95 MSRP tank car... I'd be more inclined to believe that -- in this economy in particular -- dealers will be VERY conservative on their orders here.  And if the orders trickle in below some pre-determined point that only Atlas-O knows internally, then the car's production would be cancelled.  Only time will tell.

 

Meanwhile, if the Lionel Ethanol cars catalog'd in 2013 use the same tooling as the Ethanol cars from 2010 (which are quite nicely detailed) just with new paint-schemes, then we should probably see them at some point this year close to their ETA of Summer 2013.

 

David

Originally Posted by Lee Willis:

Retailers offering a product at blowout prices means they ordered too many and want to "dump" some of them to get cash.  ...

Lee, that is ONE possible scenario.  But most of the blow-outs we've seen on Lionel steam locomotives were generated at the importer level -- not by individual retailers.  When Lionel has a bunch of stuff sitting in their warehouse for too long, they may offer it in bulk to one or more of their direct dealers -- like Charlie Ro, for example.  If it's more than Charlie and the other big guys want to take on, that's when Lionel offers direct to the public sales -- either via their website or with special events like last year's Customer Day in December 2012 and this year's LCCA event in March 2013, both of which were hosted at the North Carolina warehouse.

 

Now for dealers and shops who still have that product to sell when they purchased it from their distributor at "regular" cost...  Ugghhh!!!  They either hold their price -- hoping that folks who miss out on the blow-out need to come back to them and pay regular price.  Or they cut their losses and match the blow-out price just to sell the product (even though their cost may in fact be higher than the new blow-out price).  Tricky waters for sure in this economy.  But they're big boys and girls, and they know that going into the game.

 

David

For the most part when stuff gets blown out it's the manufactor, you can tell because a lot of dealers have them on sale for the same price. Lionel used to only blow out stuff to a few big dealers now they dump through the wholesale distribution system so all the dealers have the option getting them if they want some. As for these cars if most of you guys feel they are to over priced and dealers don't get any pre orders they probably won't order any so I doubt there will be a bunch of dealers stuck with them. Sorry to burst your bubbles

While working peoples salaries continue to go down and with unemployment rampant, I am unable to comprehend why trains have been on a upward price curve. The train market survives on the disposable income of hobbyists. It appears that Atlas is being very optimistic pricing a Chinese made tank car just under $100. As for how they will sell all I can say is, good luck to them.

I have followed this post since I initially posted a response a few days ago.  

 

This post reminds me of a conversation I had on the golf course one day, where one person made a comment about what another player tipped a caddie.  My friend responded, "Dave, you didn't make my money, please don't tell me how to spend it."  My friend was too generous to the caddie per the other person.

 

I think the same fits here.  Guys if you want the car, buy it.  If you think it's too much money then don't.

 

Car looks nice.

 

John

Like it or not this is the direction the market is moving, both Lionel and MTH go with larger runs of their models Atlas keeps it very close to the reservation levels from their dealers and I believe this does inflate the listing prices on their models but as a number of posters have pointed out the level of detail and quality is tops and the 2 rail market represents a fair share of their production runs [true they do not include sounds or animation on their cars but they also don't say "made by    " on the sides] Not too long ago Rapido an importer of superbly detailed [plastic] HO cars and engine commented on the fact that they are strickly reservation driven and will not take on a project they cannot sell out. The bottom line on the better high end plastic is that if you don't get it when it first comes out there is very little secondary market later on. Just my observations over the last decade on the ready to run market.

Originally Posted by Martin H:

I think these are AWESOME! Definitely worth the money, especially compared to what their competitors are making.  They look prototypical and represent a car that no one has ever made in o-scale before.

 

 

 

The new Lionel ones are pretty cool too, though. 

 

Recently I have been seeing Lionel and now Atlas finally making tank cars that resemble what is currently on the rails.

 

 

The MTH ones all are pretty lousy, largely because they run ridiculously high off the rails.  Too short also and most of the MTH schemes are not prototypical.

 I have to agree 100%.  

 

I have been looking for these cars for a while.  In Houston and the surrounding areas, this is 50% of what is on the rails.  With Locos and Passenger Cars, I tend to model what I like, but with freight, I tend towards what I see around me.

 

I will be purchasing several of these for sure.  A little bit of weathering and they will look fantastic. 

 

For me, in some areas it's worth it to spend the money, in other areas not so much.  This is one of those areas which is worth it to me.  Auto carriers are on of those areas where I am fine with the Premier versions and don't care to spend extra on the lionel and other more expensive versions.  

Originally Posted by seaboard streak:

WOW!!I not sure what to make of this.Is it got real gas you can use in your car or truck?

I can safely tell you that while it does not have automotive gas, the Atlas O tank car will definitely contain a gaseous substance that is safe to breathe and also commonly used as sailboat fuel.  No joke.

 

Originally Posted by John Korling:
Originally Posted by seaboard streak:

WOW!!I not sure what to make of this.Is it got real gas you can use in your car or truck?

I can safely tell you that while it does not have automotive gas, the Atlas O tank car will definitely contain a gaseous substance that is safe to breathe and also commonly used as sailboat fuel.  No joke.

 


Imagine about 10 of these tank cars with a medium weight liquid in them for realistic slack action in your train.  As you pull up to a red signal and the slack pushes you through that signal with the liquid sloshing momentum... just like how it could and has happened in real life.

with the amount of crude oil trains expected to sharply increase in the near future,these cars are perfect to build your own "crude oil train".the oil trains willbe/ are already taking the place of eastern coal that is now in less demand. i have seen several of these oil trains in the cleveland area , they are quiete impressive with 3 high h.p. units on a typical 100-110 car train. way to go atlas for keeping up with moderen railroading!i cant wait to get about 20 of these on the layout!-jim

Well they are nice, go by the real ones at the CSX/NS transfer yard every day ADM Ethanol empties, about a 100 at any given time. Waiting for the day something slams into them and destroys Alexandrea VA. I will wait for the blow out sale on them,(no pun intended )

When I see them at the shows for 40 bucks I may get a couple. that is if they do not get cancelled.

John the cheap skate

Nice car.  I'll start buying the high-end locos and cars when I have a high-end layout:  one with wide curves (greater than O-72) and decent scenery.   My layout now has an O-60 minimum-diameter circuit, and scenery is still evolving.   So I can look forward to buying and running this high-end product for my second layout, planning to start in five years or so.  Right now, I am having plenty of fun with my present layout-in-progress and low-end (but above trainset) quality trains. 

Yes, the $95 is a bit steep, but it is MSRP and not the street price.  Atlas makes the best detailed, most prototypical rolling stock in the business, IMHO.  There is no comparison betwen Atlas' Master Line and anything from any of the other train importers, IMHO.  YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR.  Buy what you like and can afford and enjoy your trains!

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