Atlas vs 3rd rail

I don't think E8's were ever used on the El Capitan.  Santa Fe E's were usually used on secondary trains and I don't think they ventured much further west than Kansas City.

Rusty

Brandon Cole posted:

Need everyones help. I'm looking to purchase power for my GGD El Capitan. Scott has told me he will be importing Alco Pa's which I'm not 100% is prototypical for the El Captain, but nonetheless will be outstanding models.

Right. The management, i.e. the President, didn't want those "smoking" ALCO PA units on the fancy "Name Train", with the possible resulting bad publicity from the "Hollywood crowd".

My question is how does everyone like there 3rd rail models, do they run smoothly or have any problems I should be concerned about?

Also they have E8's right now to reserve. From my understanding though the E8 rarely if ever made an appearance on the 1956 El Capitan. Is that true?

Right. The EMD E Units could NOT effectively handle the grades on Cajon nor Raton, thus were used on other passenger trains, like the Texas Chief. 

I'm a big fan of the E units, but don't want to operate track trains that didn't exist.

Now for the new Atlas F7 what should I be expecting out of Atlas? They are claiming these will be very accurate Santa Fe F7's. Same questions apply here how does Atlas products run and what should I be concerned about?

My end goal is to have prototypical trains that I can enjoy. Myself I'm leaning towards 3rd rail with the quality service to the customer.

Thanks for your time.

Brandon.

Have you checked out the very lengthy thread, posted just a few below this, about the F Units?

HotWater. I have skimmed through that thread, but I don't believe I will find 3rd F7 to buy let alone an ABBA set in Santa Fe colors. 

Sounds like the right thing to do is go with the Atlas F7's?

Brandon Cole posted:

HotWater. I have skimmed through that thread, but I don't believe I will find 3rd F7 to buy let alone an ABBA set in Santa Fe colors. 

Sounds like the right thing to do is go with the Atlas F7's?

That may be your ONLY choice.

Brandon

What will you be asking of your PAs/Es/Fs operationally?  Will they be pulling a full El Cap consist?  Does your layout have grades?  If so, how steep?  Are they long enough to have the whole consist on the grade at the same time?  How often and how long do you plan to run them?

For high mileage units pulling heavy trains on mountain grades my mechanical preference would be MTH, Atlas and 3rd Rail in that order.  For less strenuous service you may be OK choosing based on details first.

I will attach a photo of what I'm planning for a layout there will be an upper and lower level. Not planning on grades. I will be operating every day for up to 30mins.

I will be pulling a 10 car consist of El Captain cars based on a photo I have found that I will attach as well. 

Brandon.  Both Sunset 3rd Rail and AtlasO produce very good looking diesels.  Each has it's plusses and minuses.  You've see posted on these pages discussion of what ATSF modelers did to address appearance issues with the ATSF Sunset units. I'd expect the external appearance of the AtlasO units will not have the same issues as they can build on Sunset's lessons learned.

  Drive train is a dimension where I believe Sunset 3rd Rail is the better model to own if you are an operator (not just run trains round and round).  I have both AtlasO and Sunset 3rd Rail Diesels and find the slow speed performance offered by 3rd Rail's single horizontal  motor drive to be smoother running than the twin vertical motor "China Drive" configuration used in AtlasO F units.  At track speed both do ok, but if you want prototypically smooth low speed starts from a station (or crawling into the station) a properly geared large flywheel equipped single motor will consistently outperform 2 flywheel equipped smaller motors.  It comes down to gear ratios, starting motor torque, and the rotational mass of the flywheel.  A visual advantage of 3rd Rail's horizontal single motor drive is that the cab interior is fully detailed.  With the AtlasO design the motor introduces into the cab area.  As a result they can't install a proper cab back wall and the tall motor shroud is visible when looking into the cab area.

Have you called around to see if 3rd Rail or any of the larger dealers have 3rd Rail ATSF F7's in stock?

 PS - Atlas O equips their EMD switchers with a fantastic single horizontal motor drive.  For 20+ years I've been frustrated that they went with China drives in their other diesels. 

Atlas.

3rd rail is good, but too many modifications needed to make them accurate (at least that is what I observed on the 3rd rail F7 modifications thread).

I have 6 Sunsent 3rd rail diesels, 2 each F7, FP7, and E7.   I love them.

the sound is great.

They run very smoothly because they have single motor drives.   I have never had a 2 motor diesel that continued to run as smoothly after some use.

The detail on my PRR units is great.

The pulling power is better than I expected. 

The only thing I find a minor irritant is that the FP7s are high gloss and the F7s are satin finish, so they look a little different on the layout.   I just assume the FP7s are just out of the shop.

I do have a set of Atlas FM Erie-builts with their dual motor drive.   They do run OK, just not as nice as the 3rd rail units.

I rode the El Capitan from LA to Chicago and back in 1962.  The train was powered by F units (I don't know which model) both ways.  The El Capitan may have been powered by PAs at some time but that was rare.  I think you should look for ATSF F units.

Since you are posting on the 3RS forum, I infer that you are looking for 3-rail diesels and that your El Capitan will be the 3 rail version.  Both Lionel and MTH have made beautiful ATSF F unit models.  You should probably take a look at Lionel and MTH also.

I have four 3rd rail NH FL9s.  They are beautiful models and are smooth running.  I also have several Atlas switchers.  They are also great.   I would probably choose 3rd Rail F units to go with a 3rd Rail El Capitan if I had a choice.   

I have some SF books.  I will take a look to see if there are any photos of a PA pulling the El Capitan.

NH Joe

New Haven Joe posted:

Since you are posting on the 3RS forum, I infer that you are looking for 3-rail diesels and that your El Capitan will be the 3 rail version.  Both Lionel and MTH have made beautiful ATSF F unit models.  You should probably take a look at Lionel and MTH also.

This was originally posted in the 2-rail forum, and at least the first few responses above were posted while it was in that forum.  It would appear the moderators have moved it to 3RS, so there may be some confusion with the rest of the responses.

Why would he consider the Lionel or MTH?  They don't make 3RS or 2R versions, except for a few of the MTH offerings.  Both will be outside the class of what 3RDrail and Atlas are making.

The China drive in the Atlas seems like an issue? Personaly I would like to get the Sunset F7, but can't find any in stock anywhere. Does anyone have suggestions?

My layout will be 3rail. 

Shame you are not looking for 2 rail. I know a dealer with a brand new A-B-B-A set of Sunset ATSF warbonnet units for sale.

Just found this picture posted by one of our forum members. Looks to me Alco PA's pulling the El Captain. Maybe it is prototypical. 

Nice photo.

bob2 posted:

Nice photo.

LOL!

Martin H posted:

New Haven Joe posted:

Since you are posting on the 3RS forum, I infer that you are looking for 3-rail diesels and that your El Capitan will be the 3 rail version.  Both Lionel and MTH have made beautiful ATSF F unit models.  You should probably take a look at Lionel and MTH also.

This was originally posted in the 2-rail forum, and at least the first few responses above were posted while it was in that forum.  It would appear the moderators have moved it to 3RS, so there may be some confusion with the rest of the responses.

 

Why would he consider the Lionel or MTH?  They don't make 3RS or 2R versions, except for a few of the MTH offerings.  Both will be outside the class of what 3RDrail and Atlas are making.

His track plan also appears to me to have 3 rails.  I suggested Lionel or MTH because it was on the 3RS forum.  

I think that the top Lionel and MTH engines compare very favorably with the others in level of detail except that they are configured for 3 rail with claw couplers, etc..  Some MTH diesels come can be easily converted to 2 rail by changing the wheels.  I have two MTH steam engines that I purchased with scale wheels.  I run them at a 2 rail club and get very favorable comments from the 2 rail members.

NH Joe

Martin H posted:

bob2 posted:

Nice photo.

LOL!

Photo was added. 

I run an 11 unit El Capitan 3rd rail consist at grade and level.  I have 3 sets of motive power that I trade off with.  I have an ABBA PS1 set-F3s 4 motors, a ABA PS2 C liner set-4 motors, & an F7 AB 3rd rail set-4 motors.  I don't think they ever ran C-liners, but they look good.  All 3 sets operate well.  The C-liners will overheat after an hour so I restrict sessions to 30 minutes.  I also have Lionel F3s ABA, but only 2 motors.  I have never tried them, but I don't think they would cut the mustard, especially at grade.  Atlas would not scare me at all, but I would expect 4 motors at least 

MTH locomotives do not compare favorably with 3rd Rail or Atlas in any metric or dimension except they are cheaper.

They don't even compare favorably with post 2004 Lionel except for they are cheaper.  Especially in F-units and PAs.

Bruce D Goettel posted:

I run an 11 unit El Capitan 3rd rail consist at grade and level.  I have 3 sets of motive power that I trade off with.  I have an ABBA PS1 set-F3s 4 motors, a ABA PS2 C liner set-4 motors, & an F7 AB 3rd rail set-4 motors.  I don't think they ever ran C-liners, but they look good.  All 3 sets operate well.  The C-liners will overheat after an hour so I restrict sessions to 30 minutes.  I also have Lionel F3s ABA, but only 2 motors.  I have never tried them, but I don't think they would cut the mustard, especially at grade.  Atlas would not scare me at all, but I would expect 4 motors at least 

Videos, please !!

Rusty Traque posted:

I don't think E8's were ever used on the El Capitan.  Santa Fe E's were usually used on secondary trains and I don't think they ventured much further west than Kansas City.

Rusty

True.

There were also unnamed trains, #93 and 94 that ran between Lubbock and Amarillo, TX which provided Lubbock with connectivity to the San Fran Chief...it was commonly powered with an E (some of which may have been rebuilt from the original slant-nosed E's).  That route is very flat.

Brandon,

If you have the time and resources, it is fun and informative to look through the photos posted on railpictures.net...it will show you what locomotives pulled what trains in what years.  You can limit your searches by locomotive type, by railroad, and/or by years.

Brandon Cole posted:

I will attach a photo of what I'm planning for a layout there will be an upper and lower level. Not planning on grades. I will be operating every day for up to 30mins.

I will be pulling a 10 car consist of El Captain cars based on a photo I have found that I will attach as well. 

Brandon,

Have you given any thought to the fact that a 10 car passenger train and an ABA set of units is going to take up most of your layout?

Those are my Alco pics. My dad took them in Cali back in the 60's l. Those were Alcoa pulling the El Cap in the off season. I think I have more pics of them

DaveJfr0 posted:

MTH SD45s are not bad and sd/gp 35's looked ok too, but I already owned the atlas versions.  I'd say those compare equally. (Though only MTH has the scale SD45.)

The MTH F7s were fine too, but 3rd rail did them better, but I got an ABA for the price of one. (and had them long before 3rd rail did theirs.)

Still open to buying an MTH trainmaster when they do them in SOU black tux.  Also wouldn't mind getting an Amtrak turbotrain at some point on the secondary market. I would have bought 2R SD24s too but MTH neglected to update their SD24 tooling to scale wheel. Oh well.

Whomever is first to the sd40-2 and does hi-hood will probably get my money on those.

Just because someone makes the only thing available doesn't mean I would spent my money on it.  Spending a penny on something I consider inferior is the waste of a penny.  I will simply do without until something that meets my standards is available.   Even though it is the only GP40 available spending money on an MTH one is a waste of money to me.

I've been waiting over 30 years for an SD38-2 but I will cancel my order for the upcoming Lionel version in a heartbeat if the earlier delivered new tooling SD40s are not up to snuff.

I converted three MTH PAs to metal, after comparing the bodies with $1200 brass units, and finding them suitably sized and detailed.  I have not studied the MTH trucks and wheelbase - they made some compromises there - but for 3-rail scale, I would say that MTH would suffice.

Being a 2-railer with somewhat lower standards, I happily pull Budd cars with red letterboards and random window arrangements behind my polished nickel-silver PA.  But I guess I can see why it would be necessary to be absolutely faithful to the prototype if you were running 3-rail.

I two-railed a bunch of K-Line Train Masters, and found them more than adequate, but kind of wished I had waited for MTH - now those were nice models!

I own quite a few MTH locos and none of them are "trash" 

You guys know that I run a lot of MTH in 2 rail. There's no sense discussing an engine that does not meet someone's standards. I understand and expect it from different people. That's why they'll pay a higher price to get the level of detail and accuracy they desire. I'm surprised that many of these guys accept the Atlas models at all.

 I have an Atlas Dash 8 and to me, it's slightly lower than my MTH ones. The side handrails mount the same on the under metal tree. The detailing on the rear could be better. The plastic grilles with the fan detail lacks in my opinion. But!, I do like the engine and will buy more. It has more pluses than negatives. It's a good runner. I'm an operator and desire stuff that performs first and foremost. So that's my criteria. I have an Atlas GP60B that looks very good to me. I wish I had gotten more of their SD models.

 I am excited to see new Atlas engine releases.

An MTH GP40 looks like a GP40 like a PW Lionel F3 looks like an F3.

By the way, Richard, I have not forgotten you.  It is packed, awaiting me to stop flying long enough to swing by the shipper.  I have a Stearman hop in about an hour, so probably not today.  Already spent an hour in the Cub.

bob2 posted:

I converted three MTH PAs to metal, after comparing the bodies with $1200 brass units, and finding them suitably sized and detailed.  I have not studied the MTH trucks and wheelbase - they made some compromises there - but for 3-rail scale, I would say that MTH would suffice.

Being a 2-railer with somewhat lower standards, I happily pull Budd cars with red letterboards and random window arrangements behind my polished nickel-silver PA.  But I guess I can see why it would be necessary to be absolutely faithful to the prototype if you were running 3-rail.

I two-railed a bunch of K-Line Train Masters, and found them more than adequate, but kind of wished I had waited for MTH - now those were nice models!

Being a 2 railer I found out way too late that MTH did Train Master demo units.  I emailed them regarding availability and they never responded to my emails.   Oh well, I missed the C&LS demos (not that I had an extra 4 grand) and I missed these ones.  Must not have been destined for me. 

Back on track I prefer 3rd rail only  because they seem to be a bit quicker to respond to internet "criticism" when there are glaring flaws.  

Anyone who dealt with that B&O Cincinnatian thread deserves sainthood.  

Hey Bob, I missed out on those MTH Trainmasters too. I really wanted the CNJ version but it was not available in 2 rail and I didn't want the 3 rail version. In hindsight I wish I would have ordered the Wabash version but it is of course too late now. The good news it is only a matter of time until MTH does a 2nd run and I hope they do a road name I really like this time (in 2 rail). 

San Francisco Chief:

The photos of the Alcos pulling Hi-Level chair cars are of the San Francisco Chief, Trains 1 and 2, which were equipped with Hi-Levels at a later date than El Capitan.  Nos. 1 and 2 had Alco power much of the time, but not always.

Sunset/3rd Rail vs. Atlas F7's:

I bought an A-B-B set of Sunset F7's, and, as mentioned in a previous post, they are extremely smooth runners. especially at low speed.  However I have a number of Atlas diesels (Erie-Builts, GP7's, GP9's, RSD4's) and they run very nicely, and are almost bullet-proof for durability.  They run and run and run.  I do not think you could go wrong with either one.

Probably not prototype but I'm happy with my MTH PA's A-B-B-A and 11 K-line all aluminum passenger train:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qr5wq5dQx2k 

Number90 / Brandon:

With respect to the Sunset F-7's you purchased what is the minimum curve for A and B units? The reason I am asking is sometimes Sunset lists O72 curve as a minimum for a diesel B unit and I am not sure what Brandon is using for his curves.

Joe

K-Line has done a SF F7 ABA with 4 motors and cruise that would easily handle 12 cars. They come with a choice of pilots including a fixed pilot with scale coupler and fixed pilot with hidden coupler. 

How hard is it to fix the pilots on Lionel F3s? I put together an ABBA all powered for less than the cost of one 3rd Rail powered unit. All close coupled with Kadees.

Pete