During COVID the government agency I work for got behind the 8 ball with new hires and decided to train them on an automation system we use for recording work activities. I taught almost non stop for 2 years virtually what was a 5 day in person class turned into a 14 day virtual class due to time limits in front of a pc and how ineffective the learning process becomes in a virtual setting. That being said anyone that attended a virtual class had the option of retaking the class when we went back to in person training. Considering what GRJ thoughts are and my experience in teaching in the virtual environment I think a lot of questions need to be asked and answered by TrainZ before putting out that much money. I am not saying the training would be bad or sub standard but old farts like us learn in different ways than the youngsters here on the forum. I believe some of the younger folks are teachers and maybe they could give us some of their thoughts I myself would be interested in the MTH Course as I have no modern Lionel but a bunch of MTH. Just my humble thoughts on the subject.
This is a fantastic, perfect for hobby shops that want to have a repair/service department or even a list of individuals that can do repairs. I remember those advertisements in Popular Mechanics from the 1960s about learning how to do tv repairs from correspondence courses. My dad loved those courses.
I have such respect for our forum members like gunnrunnerjohn that share their expertise. Hopefully, we will see more individuals take the steps to learn skills to do this stuff. this goes for car repairs, home repairs, how to farm, how to fix farm equipment, and the list goes on...
Long live the handyman and handywomen.
@RickO posted:I don't have alot of train breakdowns, maybe some fresh wicking or a smoke fan here or there which I can handle myself.
I'll save my $900 for something more serious, and have one of the experienced repair folks on this forum take care of it for me.
I can do about 75% of what I have encountered. I tend to agree.
The goal of the certification would be to repair trains as a vocation. The more people who know things the better. 🎓
As a hobbyist I’ll stick with the knowledgeable people on the forum and Youtube University.
I learned to code in 5 languages without ever taking a class. Learning to live by my wits is a skill I will always treasure.
Great discussion. 👍
A lot of interest in our Academy offering! I'm still pulling together answers for all these questions, but I do have a few answers so far.
-At the moment we're offering a year of access to the courses from date of purchase. Do you believe that's sufficient time to be able to go back and review the video courses? We could expand that to two years, if that would be helpful.
-Each course includes reference material that can be saved to computer or printed out. The Lionel parts diagram for example, or the MTH manual. Our courses are what Lionel and MTH taught their techs. For those taking the course, or on the fence, what more would you like to see as far as reference material?
-While we'd love to bring folks in for some hands-on training, reality tends to get in the way. There's the cost of travel and accommodation students would have to cover in addition to the cost of the courses, and a slew of liabilities that would make the insurance company very unhappy with us. We'll look into this further.
-Any interest in giving students who have completed certification a 10% discount on parts? We've got quite the selection available.
@Scott@Trainz posted:-Each course includes reference material that can be saved to computer or printed out. The Lionel parts diagram for example, or the MTH manual. Our courses are what Lionel and MTH taught their techs. For those taking the course, or on the fence, what more would you like to see as far as reference material?
What would be useful would be if you could provide the complete manuals and reference materials that were originally provided for the manufactuer's classes. That would be far more useful over the years than access to videos for a year! Reference materials should be printed (or computer electronic copies) of all the information.
@Scott@Trainz posted:-Any interest in giving students who have completed certification a 10% discount on parts? We've got quite the selection available.
Any chance they couldn't become Lionel and/or MTH certified and have the same parts access as folks trained by Lionel or MTH?
@gunrunnerjohn posted:What would be useful would be if you could provide the complete manuals and reference materials that were originally provided for the manufactuer's classes. That would be far more useful over the years than access to videos for a year! Reference materials should be printed (or computer electronic copies) of all the information.
I suspect Lionel and MTH might have an issue with supplying manuals and material that is their intellectual property unless a deal was made with them. I could be wrong but I suspect that is worth asking.
scott,if this has not already been said.
I for one feel if I payed 500 for each course. I would want these courses on what ever I downloaded them too forever.
I am not attending a class persay inperson. its an online course. I realize the potential for someone to copy them and put them online of course for free.
that issue I am not certain how to address,but I want access to my course when ever I chose. tommorow or ten years from now if I forget something. that way I can go back and watch it again.
I re-watch youtube tutorials all the time. I still find thing I missed the first time.
this is just me and how I operate and my brain works. others may feel differently about this. so you asked and I answered.
I do plan on getting the courses though. thanks again for this.
@MartyE posted:I suspect Lionel and MTH might have an issue with supplying manuals and material that is their intellectual property unless a deal was made with them. I could be wrong but I suspect that is worth asking.
Probably so Marty, my point is that's what would be useful.
However, I don't know why MTH or Lionel would be that secretive about the information supplied to techs, the training classes IN PERSON at the manufacturer were free, you just had to get there! It's obviously beneficial for manufacturers to have more repair people available, so I think there should be a way to reach an accommodation for the documentation.
@scott@trainz posted:
"At the moment we're offering a year of access to the courses from date of purchase. Do you believe that's sufficient time to be able to go back and review the video courses? We could expand that to two years, if that would be helpful."
-"Each course includes reference material that can be saved to computer or printed out. The Lionel parts diagram for example, or the MTH manual. Our courses are what Lionel and MTH taught their techs. For those taking the course, or on the fence, what more would you like to see as far as reference material?"
I believe having a "printed manual or work book / reference guide" would make all the difference (at least for me) on the overall value of the classes as I am interested in both courses. I am not in a position where there is computer access while I am working in my shop / train room. (Just my 2 cents)
I guess my more important question would be related to ask if both Lionel and MTh would recognize people who pass the course as an "Authorized Dealer" for the repairs and service side of the business, without becoming a full Retail Dealer? Could you advertise that you are Authorized? Would passing this course give me full access to purchase parts from them as, well as through your business?
As someone who has been in the hobby most of my life, I am considering a "new venture" now that I am getting closer to full time retirement. There has been no offerings by either Lionel or MTH in quite a while to become trained formally, so this is a great oppertunity.
I think the courses will be beneficial to the hobby in the long run regardless of the reason you are interested, but the real value of the cost /expense of taking the classes are only justified by the "actual worth" in the end. I applaud you for this undertaking and look forward to learning more about it, Rick
@gunrunnerjohn posted:What would be useful would be if you could provide the complete manuals and reference materials that were originally provided for the manufactuer's classes. That would be far more useful over the years than access to videos for a year! Reference materials should be printed (or computer electronic copies) of all the information.
The entire MTH Service Manual is available for download when you enroll. What else from the MTH side would someone want?
Now there is no access to the Dealer loader software which I'm willing to bet will be a needed component for some of the service needs.
@H1000 posted:The entire MTH Service Manual is available for download when you enroll. What else from the MTH side would someone want?
Now there is no access to the Dealer loader software which I'm willing to bet will be a needed component for some of the service needs.
I'm not sure what they'll provide for Lionel, most of the course materials for Lionel would be hopelessly outdated from when Lionel offered classes, TMCC parts have been declared obsolete by Lionel.
I don't see where it says the Service Manual will be available. I don't know what the "MTH Manual" means, . However, you touched on one thing they'd need, the Dealer Loader for DCS. Another thing is dealer status for parts, same for Lionel parts. FWIW, the "official" name of the manual I received at the MTH training is "Service Notes".
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I think you're right about the Lionel side of things John. The info provided will be for older products and much of the newer & specialty stuff won't have any documentation.
Not much has changed for MTH in the last few years so I suspect that what is provided from Trainz should still be comprehensive and valid. For reference, below is what is available from the course to be downloaded: https://academy.trainz.com/p/r...ns-with-don-lockwood
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Still doesn't solve all the obsolete parts problem. At least as far as Lionel items are concerned. MTH fairs better. Scott Griggs my friend, I don't want to hammer on you as I have ordered several thousand dollars worth of parts, but you need to get your website house in order. There are so many mis-labeled, incorrect numbers and incorrect descriptions of parts it's a crap shoot if you order parts. Need to hire someone who knows the business.
Well, having the complete MTH manual will be a big plus as it's still fairly current. The Lionel side of things is much fuzzier.
I have to agree with Chuck Sartor and someone else who has commented about the TMCC/Legacy board parts that Lionel deleted from their website with a key stroke on their computer. They obsoleted all TMCC/Legacy engines as they don’t want you to repair them but to buy the new catalog stuff.
So… what are you learning to repair when it is a R2LC board that needs to be replaced but Lionel obsoleted it?
Great to learn repairing but what do you do if you cannot get what you need?
Just my 2 cents.
@H1000 posted:I think you're right about the Lionel side of things John. The info provided will be for older products and much of the newer & specialty stuff won't have any documentation.
I've spend a lot of time coming up to speed on the newer Legacy environments. I've even created some bench test sets for the RCMC and BEMC that, to my knowledge, Lionel never offered in any form.
I'm currently working on similar testsets for the LCP2/LCP3 boards as well as the LionChief + 2.0 boards.
Speaking of test sets, a key requirement for folks doing MTH DCS repairs is the PS/2 and PS/3 testsets, I didn't see those mentioned in the training list, and they're certainly not included in the $500 price! If you're ever going to do more than an occasional repair, these will be a mandatory addition to your shop!
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Wow! The sky must be falling here on the OGR forum?
its been said many times on this forum that all hope is not lost. If you need an R2LC, get an R4 from Electric Rr with R2LC code on it. DCDS failed? Use a cruise M to replace it. Need a RS4 or RS5 board? Ask for anyone on the forum for one. Worst case scenario replace it with an RSL2 board from Electric RR. AC Reg failed? Replace it with a 27 ohm element and use the R2LC to drive it. Absolute WORST case scenario upgrade it to PS3. Parts are out there, stop being so lazy!
now, new parts for current production items (last couple years) good luck! Its hit or miss at best when your product is out of warranty.
Sure, its easy to complain from the comfort of your lounge chairs. Is it a pain having to backdoor the TMCC part issue? Sure, but its doable and not so painful in the long run. When your options are it stays broken or it can be fixrd, only you can make that decision……but all hope is not lost.
Give Scott some credit. He is the ONLY person in the industry making this possible. If its not for you, its not for you. But just like all those fantasy scheme locomotives of the last few years, while it may not be your “cup of tea” however, it might be someone else’s.
Always a plethora of nay-sayers out there. Being supportive won’t kill you, it might even make you feel good too?
Words to chew on,
Mike Reagan
@Mikado posted:DCDS failed? Use a cruise M to replace it.
Mike, I have an early Legacy with a failed DCDS, what do I replace it with? For that matter, what do I replace the Legacy R4LC with if it fails?
Mike, You've hit nail right on the head. There are always ways to make your stuff run and might not always be as easy as a drop in component replacement. Sometimes it requires a little creativity.
As for TRAINZ Academy, where else can anyone receive this level (or better) of training? Lionel nor MTH are offering it. This is the next (only?) best & affordable thing out there for anyone, anywhere out there!
John,
As everyone here knows you are the defacto OGR forum expert and you don’t have a solution?
here you go; it can stay broke or you could drop in an R4 with R2LC code and a Cruise M delete the reg, add a 27 ohm element, wire it to the R2 (R4LC) the LED lighting you can run off the R2. Yeah, it’ll work in TMCC mode, the 8 bit serial will talk to the RS5.5, just not in 9-bit expanded feature mode.
or you can ask if anyone on the forum has the DCDS-J you are looking for, there are a lot of helpful folks here that would likely be willing to sell you one!
So, you see, it can be repaired, may not be exactly like factory, but when your ioptions are sucks and sucks worse, what do ya do?
Or of course you can upgrade it to PS3, but that’ll be a bit more work!
Also, I have been advised that Trainz.com crries all the ERR stuff in their parts inventory online.
Thanks,
Mike
@harmonyards posted:Hey, I heard you missed us, we're back!
I brought my pencil
Give me something to write on!I don’t feel tardy,…..
Pat
Hot for Mike Reagan?
Well... OK, I'm not judging
When Mike and John start talking about solving non-trivial repair problems, I open up a file on my computer and take notes.
Hi I can personally tell you I have looked on the parts web site and the ps test fixtures are no longer available and the part numbers for test fixtures have been deleted! the only parts available are the harnesses for all test fixtures!
Alan
@Alan Mancus posted:Hi I can personally tell you I have looked on the parts web site and the ps test fixtures are no longer available and the part numbers for test fixtures have been deleted! the only parts available are the harnesses for all test fixtures!
Alan
A test set ain’t mandatory Alan, ….for the same money ( or less ) there’s a gazzillion test sets on the popular shopping sites,…..they’re called locomotives,…..modify one to be the test pig, ….that’s what I’ve done for years……
Pat
These are the two questions that I had:
"I guess my more important question would be related to ask if both Lionel and MTh would recognize people who pass the course as an "Authorized Dealer" for the repairs and service side of the business, without becoming a full Retail Dealer? Could you advertise that you are Authorized? Would passing this course give me full access to purchase parts from them as, well as through your business?" (from CNJ Rick's earlier post)
I hope someone who factually knows the answer will provide one. It would be nice to know.
Given that many of us on the forum did not have/take the opportunity to be trained at the facility through their courses in the past, this is the best option available. Thanks to Scott for making this available. I am going to focus on the contents of the glass, not what is missing. I will be taking the Lionel course for sure, maybe the MTH (not sure).
Now, for the answer to those questions, ...
Hi Pat I agree with exactly what you said that's how I started out using a test engine but some people will want the test fixture some don't care.! I have had many people ask where they could purchase a test fixture especially a ps 2 3- & 5-volt rig!
Alan
I am adding to my response I previously posted as Mike Reagan responded above and did open the door on electronic repairs. He makes a lot of sense there that some, included me are short-sighted and options are out there!
The expert has spoken.
I have to agree with Chuck Sartor and someone else who has commented about the TMCC/Legacy board parts that Lionel deleted from their website with a key stroke on their computer. They obsoleted all TMCC/Legacy engines as they don’t want you to repair them but to buy the new catalog stuff.
So… what are you learning to repair when it is a R2LC board that needs to be replaced but Lionel obsoleted it?
Great to learn repairing but what do you do if you cannot get what you need?
Just my 2 cents.
@harmonyards posted:A test set ain’t mandatory Alan, ….for the same money ( or less ) there’s a gazzillion test sets on the popular shopping sites,…..they’re called locomotives,…..modify one to be the test pig, ….that’s what I’ve done for years……
While I'll agree that the test set isn't mandatory, it sure is more convenient than taking locomotives apart! The test set covers all the outputs, with a locomotive, you can't really test if the markers are working if it doesn't have markers, etc. I can assure you that some repairs and diagnosis would be a lot harder without it.
@dennish posted:These are the two questions that I had:
"I guess my more important question would be related to ask if both Lionel and MTh would recognize people who pass the course as an "Authorized Dealer" for the repairs and service side of the business, without becoming a full Retail Dealer? Could you advertise that you are Authorized? Would passing this course give me full access to purchase parts from them as, well as through your business?" (from CNJ Rick's earlier post)
I hope someone who factually knows the answer will provide one. It would be nice to know.
Given that many of us on the forum did not have/take the opportunity to be trained at the facility through their courses in the past, this is the best option available. Thanks to Scott for making this available. I am going to focus on the contents of the glass, not what is missing. I will be taking the Lionel course for sure, maybe the MTH (not sure).
Now, for the answer to those questions, ...
Denis,
We are working with both Lionel and MTH to get our courses approved. Once we get that accomplished we will certainly let everyone know. Thanks.
@Scott@Trainz posted:We are working with both Lionel and MTH to get our courses approved. Once we get that accomplished we will certainly let everyone know. Thanks.
That would be a major step and add real value to the courses for sure. 
Has there been any feedback on the classes? We are about a year since they started.
I know a couple of people that took them and were happy with the, but that's a small sample.
My son finished both of them. He likes to buy and sell used engines and the biggest benefit of the classes is that it helps with diagnosing problems and fixing less complicated issues.
the classes are recording of actual training classes for Trainz technicians. There is an assumption of basic electronics knowledge and skills. Don’t expect the classes to teach you how to solder.
Since it’s geared towards technicians quickly evaluating issues and repairing them, I think it would help you maintain your current collection. Is an issue due to a pinched wire or a dead board that needs replacement?
The class will not teach you how to repair the actual boards or how to shim gear boxes. It’s all about identifying the offending part and quickly replacing them for the customer, which in this case is Trainz.
The reference materials are helpful and you do get a better understanding of how things work that really helps on those upgrades. He successfully completed a Super Chuffer upgrade and a couple of Cruise M installations. I feel saving on basic repairs and upgrades are the best chance to recover your money from the investment.
