Basic stuff

While I think that I agree with parts of your post. There are other parts where I'm so confused, somewhere between lost and found . I cannot understand your using 16 awg 4 conductor wire for switches. Another item would be the use of 14/3 romex for primary under-table power distribution. While I agree with planning ahead for future power needs. We build toy train layouts not single-family dwellings ?

Please do not misunderstand or think that I am making fun of you, I'm not.

"Pappy"

I don't think TinMan is doing its customers any favors by including four conductor 16 gauge wire with their rebuilt switches. For most folks the 16 gauge wire will be overkill, and will be needlessly difficult to work.

To each their own, I don't see why anybody would want to use Romex. If you need to use 14 gauge wire (arguable), individual conductors are easier to work with. Cutting open a piece of Romex in the middle to create a tap has to be less than pleasant.

Tin Man,

Good idea - but, as Pappy hinted, please make sure any tips or information posted on your website is accurate.

Remember that thread about "adding straights to increase radius". You got some bad info there, and are likely to get more of the same if you do not check accuracy before posting to your website.

As Pappy also said, using 14/3 Romex looks to be another example of questionable advice for the average layout builder, as is using 16 gauge wire for switch controllers!!!

As you said, your website could become a real benefit to the hobby with tried and proven tips and techniques. Good luck.

Jim

I think a website or forum area where beginners can learn the best way to clean their track, oil their locos, and hook up their transformers is a good idea. After all, I can´t be the only one out there with a box full of rusty track, a transformer that smokes and a loco that doesn´t.

KenL

I have rebuilt 125 022 (O-31) switches.  All came back to life.  I have also rebuilt 15 711 switches (072) recently.  Some of these have a switch motor the same as the early 022s.  All of these came back to life.  These 711 switches were built between 1928 and 1934.  It takes a little work to get the early versions of them working as the switch motors are a little temperamental. The temperamental nature of the switches is due to a design error in the sliding contacts.  Look for my thread on how to make 022 switches work better than new:  022/711 switch operating pblms.  Look for it with Google.  If you rework your 022 switches and do everything in my thread, you will have perfect operating 022 switches.  I paid less than $10 for most of the switches.  The newer switches are not as good as the post war switches.  You can use the post war switch motors from 022 switches with any of the 711 switches.  

Pappy, agree, believe me 16/4 is not easy to work with for us, but we did this because of the power tap addition. Also found an economical source for the 16/4 stranded copper cable. Would 20/4 probably work, yes. 14/3 romax was used from another forum suggestion, you can peal back the outer white insulation very easily, leaving a chunk every few feet. it gives you 2 train leads, one accessory lead, and 1 ground, all color coded, and is very easily found and  economical. Actually using a squeeze stripper (like the vice-grip model), makes splicing in a breeze. I tried this on my own 8X24 layout and it really worked pretty well.  For smaller layouts, you bet is overkill, but what does it hurt? One guy wanted to know if he could use cad 5 cable for all his wiring needs.  

Jim, I agree, the information should be checked before publishing. The idea re using straights was indeed disputed very logically, and I did forward the information to the individual, in a sorry no free lunch response. We are working on a "why O72 curve" tip now. The logic we will use is rather than why, why not, if you have the room and $.

Another of my favorites, was the question of tinplate vs Fastrack. Opened a real can of worms there, but was able to get a very simple answer thanks to a lot of you. If you do not dismantle your layouts, or if appearance is super important,  you bet, go with Fastrack. It is better looking and makes better connections. If however you dismantle your layouts frequently, or if like me, arthritis is getting worse all the time, probably better to stick with the old style tinplate.

Servoguy, I very much respect your experience in working with switches. We have sold well over 250 reconditioned units, of which over 90% needed some kind of repair/adjustment. I have read your tips and techniques several times and especially when we come to one of those=====come on you should work, now why don't ya! The number of fubar ones I ended up with were very few. The biggest cause of those few, by the way for were due to coils just not having enough oomph anymore, (kinda like me some days). Decision to terminate those, more of a time issue then anything else.   Also very much agree that the older O22 designs were better than the newer imitation ones with the copper contacts for the slide switches. In fairness however, K-lines micro switches appear to work well with almost no failures I have seen. Will they also last close to 100 years?

One of my favorites was phasing multiple transformers, some people think it just is not necessary, but it is a simple procedure, and doesn't hurt a thing. Another is the KW transformer use for accessory power, lots of comments and possibilities, but in the end, the most sensible was pick up a cheap one output transformer and use that.

The LED lights is yet another that I am sure some people disagree with. In looking at Lionel's at least 3 totally different methods of putting them into switches, leaves me to believe, there may yet be issues here.

   I am not interested in being the worlds gift to every possible issue out there, just want to help the guy  who may be a little embarrassed about seeking help. For example, I do not attempt to repair my own engines, so you can be sure those kinds of things will not appear. I do not even feel comfortable  advising anyone how to properly lube them. I would much rather pack them up and send them out to one of you. I'm a track guy and perfectly happy to limit my discussions with that.

In conclusion, will we be able to bat 1000 all the time? Probably not, but as originally said, still  looking for tried and true items to add to the site. Any and all, suggestions would be appreciated. While not a forum, it is changeable if we screw up, so please let us know that to. I've looked and looked, but can't seem to find my walk on water shoes.

"As Pappy also said, using 14/3 Romex looks to be another example of questionable advice for the average layout builder, as is using 16 gauge wire for switch controllers!!!"

Apparently some of the guys on this forum do not know how to select a proper wire size.  For a guy using a ZW, 14 gauge wire should be used as the transformer current output is about 15 amps, and this current requires 14 gauge wire.  For smaller transformers, 16 gauge wire should be sufficient.  16 gauge for switch controllers is overkill, and 18 or 20 gauge should be sufficient.  I have used 16 gauge for switches because I was using zip cord which cheap enough, and I only needed 2 wires as the 3rd wire is ground (outer rails).

I am going to soon post information on how to eliminate most track wiring.  I have a 19x11 layout on the floor with a single feed.  I am running post war locos pulling about 10 cars and there is very little speed variation around the entire layout.  The track is mostly prewar 072 and it was rather dirty when I got it.  The trick is to get very low resistance between the rails and the pins.  I have a Kelvin setup for measuring resistance which will accurately measure resistance down to 0.00002 ohms.  You can't do this with a conventional VOM.  I may get around to publishing how to do this within the next few days.

Understood servo guy, guess my logic has always been to big is ok, smaller is not acceptable.  Once again, looking for tried and true concepts. I am also very interested in your "Kelvin set up" can you get me a little more info on that. Currently we use a very old Ohmite 15 amp variable resistor to check track with, it allows us to control the amount of amperage, and measure the voltage at both ends. It was originally built as a dimmer control for church lighting, before the days of solid state equipment. Hope you find the time to go into details as to your method of joining track with little or no loss.

Tin Man,

   I do believe you have a good idea for the people re-entering our hobby, setting them up properly is definitely helping them re-enter the hobby.  IMO it would also be a big help to educate them on the new remote control systems in our hobby, both DCS & Legacy.  I would also point them to the OGR and all the help they can receive here on the forum.  In really conventional layouts are now easy to construct, especially with a little help.  Knowledge like over powering a layout from the beginner to allow for expansion is one of the tips, I would suggest you make to your customers as they start or re-enter the hobby.

PCRR/Dave

TinMan,

I in no way was trying to pass judgement. I have to admit that what you're attempting to accomplish must be admired. While tube track has been around for what seems to be forever. A firm like yours can be likened to the, "new kid on the block".

You have my email on file. If I can be of any assistance, let me know. I'll be looking for your response.

God Bless,

"Pappy"

Hi Dave, thanks for your reply, truth is DCS and Legacy are way  beyond me.   My plate is quite full just trying to acquire enough inventory to help my customers.  Is there a simple explanation somewhere of these new systems that could be published as a teaser? I am discovering real train shops are disappearing rapidly, as a source of dependable info. Why, not because of a lack of business, more because knowledgeable people are able to find what they need on line, cheaper than a store can sell for. Not a complaint, or criticism, just a fact of life. Couple that with 2nd or in some cases 3rd generation store owners who have no passion for the business, and that's what you get. I got quite frustrated trying to get some of this info at a local shop and was told this is what you need so buy it, or don't bother me. He has since closed his doors.

Thank you Pappy, you have made my day!

Here is a link to Wikipedia that explains the Kelvin connection:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four-terminal_sensing

Here is a hint of what is coming:  When correctly done, the resistance between the pin and the rail it is installed in is about 0.0007 ohms.  It is imperative that the pin be absolutely clean and that the inside of the rail is also clean and that the rail be crimped properly before the pin is installed.  Contact resistance is extremely sensitive to contact pressure.  If the contact pressure is low, the resistance will be high.  The resistance between two sections of track when the pin is measuring 0.0007 ohms will be less than 0.0025 ohms.  I restored 105 sections of 072 track to these numbers and put a floor layout together with 55 072 curves, 9 10" straights, 10 14.5" straights, 3 40" straights, and 8 switches.  I only used one feed and that is all that is necessary.  More to come.

Great minds think alike, I believe we are doing the same thing with our test jig, by adding some load at one end of the track, we can then check the voltage drop. I typically set the Ohmite to apx 5 amps draw at 12 volts. If I see anything less than a volt or 2, I consider that acceptable over a 10' run. With additional cleaning etc, could that be improved? I would think so. But time and equipment is limited in working with 100's of pieces of track at one time. The better part of valor in me, says time for a power tap.

No matter how tightly one interconnects two pieces of steel with a friction fit, sooner or later there will be resistance caused by vibration, and then the intrusion of moisture.

0.0000.... ohms????   Please.  Two stranded copper conductors, each run as a bus, with the occasional drop to the track, is the accepted method.  Romex® is not a good choice for toys trains.  Soldered connections are the best.

If you use the terms "ground" and "LED light" then you have lost credibility.

Many of us here use our expertise learned in real life to help mentor those who need advice. My advice is to teach everyone what you know about repairing things, which it seems you are good at, but leave the electrical advice to the tried and true experts.

I have a BS Mathematics and MSEE and 51 years of experience as an electrical engineer.  I am fully qualified to discuss what works in the electrical engineer department.  I do not want to use any solder because I am running on carpet.  Also, soldering everything together is too much like work.  I am avoiding running wires all over the place to make many connections to the track.  I have proved that one connection from the transformer to the track is sufficient for my 11x19 foot floor layout.  If you try to use many CTC Lockons with corroded and/or rusty track, you will find that the lockons don't work very well.  I have found that Marx lockons work better than Lionel lockons because they have two tabs that go inside the rails from the bottom, and the connection is nice and tight and doesn't have a significant amount of resistance.

"No matter how tightly one interconnects two pieces of steel with a friction fit, sooner or later there will be resistance caused by vibration, and then the intrusion of moisture."  Do you have test data to support this statement?  If you spray your track with water, all bets are off.  I live in central Florida, and my experience with trains going back 40+ years is that keeping the trains in air conditioned space keeps them from rusting.  

quote:

I have a BS Mathematics and MSEE and 51 years of experience as an electrical engineer.

Do you think the sort of person who would be guided by a beginners web page would be like to be comfortable trying to remove the jacket from the middle of a length of Romex cable? Or be successful trying to get 16 gauge wire under those small binding posts on switches?

Judging by some of the things I've seen buying private sale trains, many people have trouble stripping bell wire, and getting it on the transformer and lockon.

Another question: How do you get reliable, positive contact for your high sensitivity resistance measurements? Recently I was fooling around with a Wheatstone bridge, and found it difficult to get consistent readings just touching the probes together with it set to the most sensitive ranges. My bridge does not have the facitlity to zero out the probe resistance.

CW First, we provide fork terminals with all our switches. We use hd alligator clips to do our testing. As stated our system is I am sure not fool proof. We are not trying to climb mountains, just little hills to give our customers the best product we can and still be economical. Like it or not compromises have to be made.

Servo guy, please do not get the impression that I am critical of your methods, not so at all, as a matter of fact quite the opposite. Many of your switch procedures have become sop for us at TinMan.

I think we have beat this romax thing to death now. I understand that it is overkill. I found from our shop back home a partial spool of 3 conductor 16 gauge cable that was twisted nicely but had no outer shielding. Walaa, looks great, unfortunately now a discontinued item. The cable we use now, 16/4 would be more than adequate, but is difficult to splice into. Lots of negative comments of what not to use, how bout something positive, that here is a product economical and readily available for folks. I have to make a trip to Home Depot, will look over what they have, but previously, did not find much appropriate, and certainly not economical.

While all these posts are interesting and very informative, I think that we must keep TinMan's original idea in mind.  He only wants to have a PRIMER for beginners, not a course in electrical engineering or electrical theory.  Just simple answers to basic questions.  Yes, the information supplied needs to be accurate and correct, but there certainly seems to be a need for general information for those who may be apprehensive about purchasing, setting up, and running model trains.  It's a great and noble idea.  Please do not make it more complicated than it needs to be.  Someone setting up a new layout on a ping-pong table certainly won't be able to measure and insure all the track has the proper or recommended resistance.    

Servp man... There is no doubt of your ability to make a loop of track conductive to the point where no additional taps are necessary. You have vast experience in electrical conductivity that is at least by me highly respected. The issue at heart here, is what do we suggest to people that no one do not have the knowledge and experience even close to most all of you, and what would they be willing to do just to watch their trains go round and round. Somehow, I think I got everyone off on the wrong foot. Did not in any way open a doorway to debates as to who's on first. Just what can we do in a simple fashion to help the new guys, in a way they will understand, and have the capability to do.

Another issue, soldering....absolutely the best way to get a good connection, BUT please do not solder on the sides of the track or switches. If you use too much heat, you destroy the tinplate, and the track will rust there. We solder our connections on the bottoms of the tracks, using nothing over a 100 watt iron, then coat them with Scotchcoat. Harbor freight sells a similar product called liquid solder, but is quite expensive, $10 for a small bottle, but that little bottle will make close to 50 coatings.

Do you recommend track clips for carpet layouts? I have never been very impressed with them. We suggest people to use a track tool on all ends of the tracks, and use a rubber mallet to join them. If they have one of our jigs, they can use that very nicely even on the pin ends. Is there a better way that someone has?

Servo man read your link on 4 point kelvin measuring, don't know if I understood it, but was interesting.

Thank you Bob, you made my day

quote:

Please do not make it more complicated than it needs to be.

I'd like to echo Bob's comment.
One of my professional responsibilities was developing documentation for all sorts of customers, including those with little or no background knowledge.
Documentation needed to be clear and concise, with few assumption of prior knowledge. Most materials even included a glossary.

IMHO, the proposed web site / page will be an asset to the hobby.

I think Lionel covered the tube track wiring (and other) basics quite well in this document:

How To Operate Lionel Trains and Accessories, 1954 version

IMO it's an excellent starting point.  Obviously not applicable to modern whiz-bang gear.

Pete

Wow, that is great, think that I will attach this to our website as is. Do you think if I mailed them a quarter they would send me the track layout guide??

I promise this ends it. I need to recognize this is a forum, and an opportunity for everyone to voice their opinion, good bad or otherwise. Believe it or not I have picked up a lot from this dissertation, to keep me busy for quite some time. My thanks to all.

Sorry one last one. Servo guy, how do you hold your tracks together?

 The Tin Man's idea is good, I hope he follows through with it.

  After reading this forum for a few years and seeing the same questions come up again and again I think a comprehensive text is needed.

  HO scale has books available on how to wire model railroads, build scenery, train tables etc.. There is no comprehensive "O Gauge for Dummies" or similar book. Maybe the time has come for a publisher or writer to bring one out.

  An anthology of basic articles from previously published magazine articles might work.

  This forum has a small learning curve that would be intimidating to a beginner who does not even know the terms, although it is a great source of information.

Douglas

Tin Man,

I splay two of the pins so they provide enough friction force to keep the track sections together.  Hold a section of track with the pins pointing away from you.  Bend the center rail to the left where the pin is installed, and bend the right rail to the right.  Grab the rail with a pair of slip joint pliers where the pin is installed and bend the rail, not the pin.  The jaws of the pliers should be completely on the rail with about 1/8" of the end of the rail not touched by the jaws.  Bend the rails so that the offset of the end of the pin is about half of the pin diameter.  When you join the track sections together, the splaying of the pins creates contact force and makes for a good electrical and mechanical connection.  I have done this in the past with O-27 track on a linoleum kitchen floor, and the track stayed together.  Make sure the open ends of the rails are well formed, but they should be only snug on the pins and not tight like Lionel recommends.  Also, IMHO, track pliers are a waste of money.  They cannot make a tight connection with the pins.

When I splay the pins and everything is clean, the resistance between two track sections is 0.0025 ohms or less.  Within the next few days, I am going to check all the joints in my floor layout and make sure they are all tight.  Then I will make some measurements as to the voltage drop while my 736 is running pulling about 10 post war cars.  The 736 draws 3 amps.  My daughter rearranged the layout one day when I was out of the office and she did not know how to take the track sections apart.  I use a flat blade screwdriver to disassemble the sections.  It is very easy to do it with a screwdriver as compared to trying to pull the sections apart.

Once you have splayed the pins, you probably won't have to do it again if you disassemble the layout and/or change it.  The rails stay bent.  

When you splay the pins on a switch, be gentle and don't break the plastic.  One of the advantages of 711 switches is they are made with tubular rails, and so splaying the pins is easy.  Don't splay the rails with the insulator pins.

Test results to follow.

Terrific, I would never have thought of that, would like to include in our site. By the way, our track pliers are an exception, they work very well and the jig provided works great for assembly as well as aligning pins. The catch is, do not bother trying to use them on tracks with pins installed. Send me an email with your address(tinman@tinman3rail.com)and I will send you a sample set, I owe you that much for all your switch contributions, that have made our lives easier. One question when you "splay the pins" you do not have a problem getting them to line up?

 I do not want to use any solder because I am running on carpet.  Also, soldering everything together is too much like work.  I am avoiding running wires all over the place to make many connections to the track. 

 

Now I understand completely. I thought from reading your initial suggestion that you were talking about a layout, not just a bunch of track on a rug, with the attendant vibration and other goofiness.

You have me beat, I'll admit. I have only 50 years of professional electrical experience, in the real world, preceded by 10 years of playing with trains. I learned to solder and subsequently have fault-free running at the age of 7 years. 

You might take time out and investigate how telecommunications circuits rely on gas-tight connections in order to eliminate noise.  Hint...it doesn't involve bending things and then forcing them together. 

"Now I understand completely. I thought from reading your initial suggestion that you were talking about a layout, not just a bunch of track on a rug, with the attendant vibration and other goofiness."

Hey Arthur,  Thanks for the snide remark.  

I worked for Bell Labs in the mid sixties.  It was my first job out of school.  I was in Holmdel, NJ.  Bell Labs was run by a bunch of clowns in those days.  These clowns were the ones that got the telephone keypad upside down!!!  The building I worked in had space for about 8000 engineers. It is now empty and has been empty for many years.  Bell Labs paid for my masters degree for which I have been very grateful, but it was by far the worst job I ever had.  

Were these the guys?  

Do not wish to beat a dead horse, but could not resist sharing a portion of an email received today. quote without comment

Received my O gauge track pliers today and have reconditioned 50 pieces of track. 

I will be building my  grandson a 5ft by 10ft O guage train layout. 

The track I will be using was from my boy hood layout.  The track had been put together and taken apart many times during my boyhood.  The only way to keep the track together was using tie clips. 

Now that I have used the track pliers it stays together by itelf, 

These pliers really work and do a super job of repairing the track, 

I found another use for the pliers.  Some times the black metal tie is a little loose on the rail.  The head of the pliers just fit into the  O gauge tie channel

and I can re crimp the tie to the rail.

to servo guy.....While rebuilding one of the newer O22 switches, I bent one of the slide contacts beyond what would make it usable. Thru my stupidity, I also loosened it where it would not stay at the 90 degree angle it should. I need to learn to back off when I get tired, but anyway....As you know it is very time consuming to remove rivets and redo. I tried something new. I have a couple of hemostats I use occasionally and I tried using some super glue between the copper strips and the orange paper, and held them in place with the hemostats over night. Seemed to work, but am concerned about several hundred switching's down the road. What do you think?

Super gluing the contact is something I might try on my own item, but would never do on a customer's repair, or on something I was planning to sell.

I'm not servoguy but due to my RC airplane building hobby I have considerable experience with various ca glues.  In my opinion regular ca is too brittle for this repair.  Was me I would use flexible rubberized ca, something like the IC-2000, or the Insta-Flex+, which you can view on this page (scroll down).  Unfortunately there's no way of knowing how permanent the repair would be without cycling the switch a couple thousand times.  Good luck.

Pete

I'd probably use Loctite 380 Black Max, primarily because I have it around.