The big issue is the power and infrastructure. The catenary cost alone would be huge, and the you need several more power plants. As a guy who used to work at a coal fired plant in CA, the state hates them.  They have already made the grid so reliant on solar that the electrical dispatchers can track clouds across the sky without looking out the window by knowing which sources are actually producing at any given moment.  The is not a figure of speech.

So now you need electricity.  Every 4000 hp locomotive is about 3 MW.  So to power locomotives you need Billions in power plant construction.   And oh yeah, a whole CA sized fleet of locomotive capable of running from the wires. 

I am all for protecting the environment and incremental improvements.  But this is the wrong battle to choose.

@Brian DeFazio posted:

I can't even stand the idea of battery powered model trains..... I want nothing to do with battery powered lawnmowers, cars, trucks, planes or real trains!  California is the center of all things nutty!!!  😡

You are missing out on some great and useful items then. I have a battery powered trimmer and chainsaw and would never go back to gas. Then there is this train that needs no fuel at all...

INGENIOUS ELECTRIC TRAIN FULLY CHARGES ITSELF BY ROLLING DOWNHILL WITH HEAVY LOAD

NOTHING CAN STOP THE INFINITY TRAIN!

Australian mining company Fortescue is looking to reduce the carbon footprint of its operations by allowing a specially designed electric "Infinity Train" to roll down a hill to recharge its massive batteries — without ever relying on an external charging system.

"The Infinity Train has the capacity to be the world’s most efficient battery electric locomotive," Fortescue CEO Elizabeth Gaines said in a statement. "The regeneration of electricity on the downhill loaded sections will remove the need for the installation of renewable energy generation and recharging infrastructure, making it a capital efficient solution for eliminating diesel and emissions from our rail operations."

https://futurism.com/the-byte/...rain-charges-rolling

@jhz563 posted:

The big issue is the power and infrastructure. The catenary cost alone would be huge, and the you need several more power plants. As a guy who used to work at a coal fired plant in CA, the state hates them.  They have already made the grid so reliant on solar that the electrical dispatchers can track clouds across the sky without looking out the window by knowing which sources are actually producing at any given moment.  The is not a figure of speech.

So now you need electricity.  Every 4000 hp locomotive is about 3 MW.  So to power locomotives you need Billions in power plant construction.   And oh yeah, a whole CA sized fleet of locomotive capable of running from the wires.

I am all for protecting the environment and incremental improvements.  But this is the wrong battle to choose.

If you don't like cantanaries then locomotives will need large batteries to store all the regenerative energy from going downhill. There is just too much energy to waste it all in resistive grids like they use now.

@iguanaman3 posted:

You are missing out on some great and useful items then. I have a battery powered trimmer and chainsaw and would never go back to gas. Then there is this train that needs no fuel at all...

INGENIOUS ELECTRIC TRAIN FULLY CHARGES ITSELF BY ROLLING DOWNHILL WITH HEAVY LOAD

NOTHING CAN STOP THE INFINITY TRAIN!

Australian mining company Fortescue is looking to reduce the carbon footprint of its operations by allowing a specially designed electric "Infinity Train" to roll down a hill to recharge its massive batteries — without ever relying on an external charging system.

"The Infinity Train has the capacity to be the world’s most efficient battery electric locomotive," Fortescue CEO Elizabeth Gaines said in a statement. "The regeneration of electricity on the downhill loaded sections will remove the need for the installation of renewable energy generation and recharging infrastructure, making it a capital efficient solution for eliminating diesel and emissions from our rail operations."

https://futurism.com/the-byte/...rain-charges-rolling

When my mower, chainsaw, snowblower, trimmer, etc... run out of gas, I fill the gas tank and finish the job.   I'm not about to wait hours for a battery to charge so I can finish the job....and we all know that a battery loses life the more times it is charged.   Battery powered stuff like that is a prime way to turn a 1 hour job into an 8 hour job.....   My cordless drill is a big enough pain in the butt.  I'll fight dropping internal combustion for yard work (clearing the driveway in winter to go to work) and electric cars long and hard before I give in to that nonsense. 

@Brian DeFazio posted:

When my mower, chainsaw, snowblower, trimmer, etc... run out of gas, I fill the gas tank and finish the job.   I'm not about to wait hours for a battery to charge so I can finish the job....and we all know that a battery loses life the more times it is charged.   Battery powered stuff like that is a prime way to turn a 1 hour job into an 8 hour job.....   My cordless drill is a big enough pain in the butt.  I'll fight dropping internal combustion for yard work (clearing the driveway in winter to go to work) and electric cars long and hard before I give in to that nonsense.

I find that I am already exhausted by the time I start my gas chainsaw or trimmer. You have no idea how nice it is to grab my tool and just start working. No worries about old gasoline either.  If I found that my battery wore out before I did I would just buy another battery and it would charge before the other ran down but that is not the case with my garden tools. The combination of lithium batteries and brushless motors make 2 strokes obsolete sorry.

@Brian DeFazio posted:

California is the center of all things nutty!!!  😡

...California - 5th largest economy in the WORLD. I guess we are nutty....

I would be surprised if gasoline powered garden tools and similar devices are still legal and manufactured in the near future.  They are polluting, noisy and smelly .  Not much rationale for continued use except habit and personal preference, which don't count for much in the societal context.  So enjoy them while they are still legal if you like them.  They also have shorter service lives due to vibration and complexity in many instances.  Electric versions are now quieter, odorless and more energy efficient in general.   In time they will be cheaper to manufacture and maintain if they haven't gotten there yet.

@iguanaman3 posted:

You are missing out on some great and useful items then. I have a battery powered trimmer and chainsaw and would never go back to gas. Then there is this train that needs no fuel at all...

INGENIOUS ELECTRIC TRAIN FULLY CHARGES ITSELF BY ROLLING DOWNHILL WITH HEAVY LOAD

NOTHING CAN STOP THE INFINITY TRAIN!

What makes this one, very specific example work is that the trains going DOWNGRADE are LOADED, while the trains going UPHILL are EMPTY. It takes much less energy to haul a bunch of empties upgrade than it does to generate sufficient braking power to control the speed of the loads going downgrade. More energy is generated by the loads coming down the hill than is required to move the empties up the hill. It is also a captive route - same route for every train on every trip. So it works.

This is a very unique situation and it's a very creative use of new technology. But electric power is not the panacea that the "techno-geeks" seems to think it is. At least not yet.

@Rich Melvin posted:

What makes this one, very specific example work is that the trains going DOWNGRADE are LOADED, while the trains going UPHILL are EMPTY. It takes much less energy to haul a bunch of empties upgrade than it does to generate sufficient braking power to control the speed of the loads going downgrade. More energy is generated by the loads coming down the hill than is required to move the empties up the hill. It is also a captive route - same route for every train on every trip. So it works.

This is a very unique situation and it's a very creative use of new technology. But electric power is not the panacea that the "techno-geeks" seems to think it is. At least not yet.

Yes not all trains cannot be infinity trains but reusing the energy derived from regenerative braking is not a unique situation and any train that goes over a mountain could benefit from it.  All our trains are already electric powered aren't they?

There would be no wind turbines or solar panels anywhere if they weren’t paid for by the government. They are obsolete before they’re even installed.

I know that was a political comment and will soon be deleted.

@iguanaman3 posted:

... All our trains are already electric powered aren't they?

Yes they are. And each one carries its own electrical power plant,  fueled by an internal combustion diesel engine.

Just watched a few videos about the slave labor used to mine cobalt in The Congo, the largest source of cobalt.  Makes you think.

@iguanaman3 posted:

I find that I am already exhausted by the time I start my gas chainsaw or trimmer. You have no idea how nice it is to grab my tool and just start working. No worries about old gasoline either.  If I found that my battery wore out before I did I would just buy another battery and it would charge before the other ran down but that is not the case with my garden tools. The combination of lithium batteries and brushless motors make 2 strokes obsolete sorry.

This might be fine in the "burbs" but I can guarantee you that even in light-duty commercial applications you'll want gas-powered equipment. On our farm, battery-powered stuff has its place for certain situations and gas power for other certain situations.  Our battery impact drivers are nice because they are more portable than the air drivers but we also have much bigger & more powerful air impacts for bigger jobs.  When it comes to weed-eaters & chainsaws, the battery-operated ones are junk. We tried out a high-end Milwaukee chainsaw and it just didn't compare to our gas-powered Stihl.  It was okay for limbs up to 2 or 3 inches but it really struggles with anything beyond that, plus it got slower and slower as the battery lost charge, pretty much unusable once you hit 50%.  And weed-eaters are another no-brainer. When I clean up pivot sites I'm usually cutting through weed patches that range from 4 to 7 feet tall. Even going through 2-foot prairie grass is a struggle for the electrics, not to mention I don't want to carry 20 batteries with me to get through a day.

Battery-powered is handy for a short burst or lightweight long-term use like impact wrenches, drills, residential grass trimming, reciprocating saws, and circular saws. When you want to clean up a tree line for 6 hours or slice through cockleburs weeds, gas is the way to go.

As for the comment made earlier about service life, it's all about maintenance. Our 20-year Stihl chainsaw still runs like a champ but my Black & Decker cordless weed-eater has been replaced twice in 8 years due to electric motor failure. No one will fix my weed eater so I do the environmentally friendly thing and throw it away to go buy another one. Our Stihl dealer has no problem working on that chainsaw though.

Nothing will ever replace horses and steam engines.  And that's my last word on the subject.

@H1000 posted:

This might be fine in the "burbs" but I can guarantee you that even in light-duty commercial applications you'll want gas-powered equipment. On our farm, battery-powered stuff has its place for certain situations and gas power for other certain situations.  Our battery impact drivers are nice because they are more portable than the air drivers but we also have much bigger & more powerful air impacts for bigger jobs.  When it comes to weed-eaters & chainsaws, the battery-operated ones are junk. We tried out a high-end Milwaukee chainsaw and it just didn't compare to our gas-powered Stihl.  It was okay for limbs up to 2 or 3 inches but it really struggles with anything beyond that, plus it got slower and slower as the battery lost charge, pretty much unusable once you hit 50%.  And weed-eaters are another no-brainer. When I clean up pivot sites I'm usually cutting through weed patches that range from 4 to 7 feet tall. Even going through 2-foot prairie grass is a struggle for the electrics, not to mention I don't want to carry 20 batteries with me to get through a day.

Battery-powered is handy for a short burst or lightweight long-term use like impact wrenches, drills, residential grass trimming, reciprocating saws, and circular saws. When you want to clean up a tree line for 6 hours or slice through cockleburs weeds, gas is the way to go.

As for the comment made earlier about service life, it's all about maintenance. Our 20-year Stihl chainsaw still runs like a champ but my Black & Decker cordless weed-eater has been replaced twice in 8 years due to electric motor failure. No one will fix my weed eater so I do the environmentally friendly thing and throw it away to go buy another one. Our Stihl dealer has no problem working on that chainsaw though.

Since 99%  are not farmers or ranchers what you are saying is that electric tools are the way to go for 99% of us and I agree. There are always exceptions to any rule. I will say I just had to cleanup the results of hurricane Ian and my Greenworks 80 volt brushless motor 16" chainsaw went through 12" diameter hardwood limbs like butter and the battery charges in under an hour. The tech is improving on electrics every year.

@iguanaman3 posted:

Since 99%  are not farmers what you are saying is that electric tools are the way to go for 99% of us and I agree. There are always exceptions to any rule.

So in the future, let's try to refrain from the blanket statements like "combination of lithium batteries and brushless motors make 2 strokes obsolete" that aren't true. So that the 1% of us who feed the 99% can have quality tools and not be held back by CA regulations.

@H1000 posted:

So in the future, let's try to refrain from the blanket statements like "combination of lithium batteries and brushless motors make 2 strokes obsolete" that aren't true. So that the 1% of us who feed the 99% can have quality tools and not be held back by CA regulations.

My answer to that is don't knock 'um until you've tried them but I doubt that Govt. cares what I say anyway. The future's not ours to see anyway.

@Rich Melvin posted:

Yes they are. And each one carries its own electrical power plant,  fueled by an internal combustion diesel engine.

That make adding batteries instead of resistive grids for dynamic braking pretty easy doesn't it ?

@iguanaman3 posted:

My answer to that is don't knock 'um until you've tried them but I doubt that Govt. cares what I say anyway. The future's not ours to see anyway.

I've tried them and I gotta lie, I'm really impressed.

@iguanaman3 posted:

You are missing out on some great and useful items then. I have a battery powered trimmer and chainsaw and would never go back to gas. Then there is this train that needs no fuel at all...

Very interesting reply on this thread sir. 

I'm sure things will indeed change as time goes on.     I own a quality battery powered leaf blower , hedge trimmer and grass trimmer that we use on a large yard and a large area of chain link fence as well as our landscape features. .

They are ,so far, very reliable over the last seven years.   Definitely easy to use over the gas or electric cord powered units.    Although I never had an issue with gas models since I used quality gas , oil and additives.   As far as mulching mowers , pretty much , IMO , cheaply made and not worthy of throwing your money at.

A lot of oil is used in making plastics and manufacturing of plastics produce a large carbon footprint that is needed for these light weight easy to use devices.

We'll have to see if intelligence and not popular thinking will be used for whatever future we look forward to. 🤔

@iguanaman3 posted:

Since 99%  are not farmers or ranchers what you are saying is that electric tools are the way to go for 99% of us and I agree. There are always exceptions to any rule. I will say I just had to cleanup the results of hurricane Ian and my Greenworks 80 volt brushless motor 16" chainsaw went through 12" diameter hardwood limbs like butter and the battery charges in under an hour. The tech is improving on electrics every year.

Sorry, but I'd have to actually see that chainsaw actually deal with a 12" hardwood branch or tree.  I have plenty of battery powered tools, and even a battery powered leaf blower.  It's fine for light duty, but it would never replace the Echo backpack blower I had at my old house on a 2 acre wooded lot to deal with mountains of leaves.

@Dallas Joseph posted:

Very interesting reply on this thread sir.

I'm sure things will indeed change as time goes on.     I own a quality battery powered leaf blower , hedge trimmer and grass trimmer that we use on a large yard and a large area of chain link fence as well as our landscape features. .

They are ,so far, very reliable over the last seven years.   Definitely easy to use over the gas or electric cord powered units.    Although I never had an issue with gas models since I used quality gas , oil and additives.   As far as mulching mowers , pretty much , IMO , cheaply made and not worthy of throwing your money at.

A lot of oil is used in making plastics and manufacturing of plastics produce a large carbon footprint that is needed for these light weight easy to use devices.

We'll have to see if intelligence and not popular thinking will be used for whatever future we look forward to. 🤔

You do know that using oil to make plastics is not a problem like burning it is. And plastics can be recycled. You will also be surprised at the power and efficiency of the newer battery powered tools. They have come a long way and will become even better in time.

@iguanaman3 posted:

That make adding batteries instead of resistive grids for dynamic braking pretty easy doesn't it ?

Partially,  and it's worth looking into.  But you still needs those heat grids for when the batteries are fully charged or the regenerative power from braking is more than the charge circuit can handle.

But you are missing the part that started this topic. All battery powered vehicles need to be charged from some source.  For the foreseeable future that will involve fossil fuels of some kind.  If CA were to outlaw diesel locomotives for all freight service,  there is not sufficient infrastructure to charge full battery replacement machines.   It's an idea who's time has not come.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Sorry, but I'd have to actually see that chainsaw actually deal with a 12" hardwood branch or tree.  I have plenty of battery powered tools, and even a battery powered leaf blower.  It's fine for light duty, but it would never replace the Echo backpack blower I had at my old house on a 2 acre wooded lot to deal with mountains of leaves.

I was equally skeptical but all I can say is I let a pro tree trimmer try my chainsaw and he was impressed. He said it actually made the work fun.

@jhz563 posted:

Partially,  and it's worth looking into.  But you still needs those heat grids for when the batteries are fully charged or the regenerative power from braking is more than the charge circuit can handle.

But you are missing the part that started this topic. All battery powered vehicles need to be charged from some source.  For the foreseeable future that will involve fossil fuels of some kind.  If CA were to outlaw diesel locomotives for all freight service,  there is not sufficient infrastructure to charge full battery replacement machines.   It's an idea who's time has not come.

I keep hearing that yet when the power companies are asked they always say they can handle it. I have to believe they will find a way to produce more power to sell. That is their business. You do know that electric car charged with energy from coal still emits less CO2 per mile than a gas engined car. It is all about efficiency.

@Brian DeFazio posted:

When my mower, chainsaw, snowblower, trimmer, etc... run out of gas, I fill the gas tank and finish the job.   I'm not about to wait hours for a battery to charge so I can finish the job....and we all know that a battery loses life the more times it is charged.   Battery powered stuff like that is a prime way to turn a 1 hour job into an 8 hour job.....   My cordless drill is a big enough pain in the butt.  I'll fight dropping internal combustion for yard work (clearing the driveway in winter to go to work) and electric cars long and hard before I give in to that nonsense.

Brian, I understand your point. I have 3 rechargeable batteries. They came with each tool from the same manufacturer. I keep them all charged, so it’s just a matter of swapping batteries. Actually faster than filling a gas tank.

Steve

@iguanaman3 posted:

I keep hearing that yet when the power companies are asked they always say they can handle it. I have to believe they will find a way to produce more power to sell. That is their business. You do know that electric car charged with energy from coal still emits less CO2 per mile than a gas engined car. It is all about efficiency.

Technically, you are correct, but the payback in reducing CO2 to the break even point is many years.

Steve

@iguanaman3 posted:

I was equally skeptical but all I can say is I let a pro tree trimmer try my chainsaw and he was impressed. He said it actually made the work fun.

Like every thing, you have to let the tool fit the job. I have two chainsaws, one gas, one electric. I use the electric 80% of the time because the limbs are small, etc. It’s also easier and quicker to use.

Steve

@RideTheRails posted:

Technically, you are correct, but the payback in reducing CO2 to the break even point is many years.

Steve

That is why we need other sources of electricity like nuclear, wind and solar. Those are the power sources of the future.

I live on over an acre of land with oak trees several feet in diameter each fall I have tons of leaves.  Let me know of battery powered leaf blower which will move them or a battery powered chain saw that will cut them down.  Which, by the way, convert CO2 to O2,  Battery powered tools have their place, but it is incredibly unrealistic to think that they could handle this kind of work.  I think we need to get our heads out of the clouds and realize that electric power from renewable sources is not the answer to our problems, especially when many oppose nuclear power.

Marty

@iguanaman3 posted:

You do know that using oil to make plastics is not a problem like burning it is. And plastics can be recycled. You will also be surprised at the power and efficiency of the newer battery powered tools. They have come a long way and will become even better in time.

Correct sir.        Burning oil isn't the same kind of problem that plastics have a hand in.

Yep , plastics can be recycled ........but.......Check out massive amounts of  info being gathered now about MICROPLASTIC  FIBERS .   Many products and their dirivitives that are plastics that might surprise people and where the fibers are found .    In the air , animals , fish , soil , Antarctica , mountains , humans,  ( model RRs ) etc.,etc.,etc.........and the dire effects that this different kind of problem presents.

IF THE SMOKE DOESN'T GET US THE FIBERS MIGHT. 🤔

Don't get me wrong , I like my battery yard equipment   Just unsure about mining and disposal of the item with the present science.

@iguanaman3 posted:

That is why we need other sources of electricity like nuclear, wind and solar. Those are the power sources of the future.

Windmills........nuclear waste................EVERYONE THAT WANTS THAT IN THEIR BACKYARD........raise your hand !

@Dallas Joseph posted:

Windmills........nuclear waste................EVERYONE THAT WANTS THAT IN THEIR BACKYARD........raise your hand !

I'm afraid the alternative is worse. We cannot keep digging up ancient carbon and releasing it into the air. It is down there for a reason and that reason is not to power our lives. It keeps the earth from overheating.

Show me one example of commercial wind mills or nuclear waste in anyone's back yard .  Most of the plans for windmills are now offshore for one example, and the major concern other than migrating birds is spoiling someone's view.  Sheesh. In any case, Denmark is planning for floating offshore wind which won't be visible from land.

Next generation nuclear is said to be much smaller scale and won't produce large amounts of waste, hopefully. Both wind and nuclear (and possibly solar) will work on top of the glaciers that will eventually cover many parts of northern Europe, Asia and North America if history is any guide.  Maybe not tomorrow, but within a few centuries or millenia. Have to plan for the long term if we want to survive as a species.

Guys...much if not almost all of this thread has nothing to do with the purpose of this forum.  Each post gets farther away from discussing our trains and the hobby.  Honestly, we should have closed and/or deleted the thread days ago.  Closed now....