BEWARE!!! Newly Delivered MTH 20-21058-1 BNSF Paint Scheme Not As Advertised Or Illustrated By MTH.

Simply to play devil's advocate.  Would they be easy to paint black?  I did that with a C30-7 a number of years ago and it was really easy. 

I understand that it is frustrating to receive something this is not as advertised.  However, I've come to the conclusion of why ruin it for someone who doesn't know any better or for that matters cares? 

Just my opinion anymore in a post-modeler age of model railroading.

I made my decision to order and paid $500 (you expect to get what is illustrated and advertised) and waited for this item.  It would “not” be easy to paint because of the minute detail, besides I do not have the time, equipment or money to do so (that is why I ordered it that way).   I am awaiting a response from MTH (it is their responsibility in correcting their problem).

I can provide pictures if you are interested. 

Thanks for your concern

Don't hold your breath waiting to hear from MTH.  Every manufacturers' catalogs have the disclaimer that the final product may vary from the picture in the catalog.  If the black grills not being black is that big of issue for you, these are your options: return to point of purchase; paint them yourself; have someone else paint them for you; accept it as is.

In a hobby where a lot of items arrive not working the way they should right out of the box, if a little variation in the paint is the only issue you have, I'd say you are pretty lucky!

I know your frustration but these are very easy to do. I’ve done my BNSF AC4400s like that and agree that makes them look outstanding. 

Here’s a quick pic. I also made the pilots fixed and added full length handrails 

It is not a small variation in the paint!!!  Here is what MTH advertised/illustrated the paint scheme on their website and catalog of this  engine should be and what they actually produced.  To me this is false and misleading advertising (bait and switch) far from any small deviation that they could claim as a disclaimer.  Not only are the grills not black (left and right sides) but if you look at the forward left side of the engine (under the 7 of the road number) you will notice that the lower half of a grill is black but not the upper half of the grill.  The right side of the engine does not have this problem in this grill area as it is not painted black at all.   All of this is defective manufacturing for which MTH is responsible for.  It is time for us to standup for what we paid for and not to standup for and accept misleading advertisement.   I am still waiting to hear back from MTH as to how they are going to resolve their problem (not only for me but for all of those who ordered this particular engine and have the same defects) .

rattler21 posted:

Many moons ago John Smith(PRB) compared three rail modelers and two rail modelers.  He sold 150 two rail Santa Fe Hudson locomotives, not one complaint.  From the same production run he sold 50 three rail Santa Fe Hudson locomotives, twenty five were returned for cosmetic alterations.

Would a black felt tip marker make the job easy?

John in Lansing, ILL

This is typical for 3rd Rail product as well.

To the OP, I'd offer that if you are that unhappy with it, return it for a refund.  In my experience on the receiving end of criticism, justified and not, a phone call or email directly to the manufacturer explaining the problem at least generates a conversation and a greater willingness to try and make it right.  Posting on a public forum and telling everyone to avoid a product typically gets ignored. 

Not at all saying that is right, just stating a fact in a niche manufacturing reality.

Rattler and GG1,

Not to steal the thread or criticize anyone but I would have guessed the opposite of the example you gave.  Any guesses on what might be behind the thinking?  

northern southerner posted:

BEWARE!!! Has anybody ordered or received the recently delivered 20-21058-1, AC4400cw Diesel Engine w/Proto-Sound 3.0 (Hi-Rail Wheels) - BNSF that was advertised and illustrated both on the MTH website and Catalog and was not as described (major paint scheme discrepancy).

The access panel grills on the rear sides of the engine are not black as described or illustrated by MTH. The black access panel grills are the main reason I wanted this version of this particular engine. This is a not a minor detail omission but an extremely major omission so I do not consider it an acceptable factory manufacturing or design adjustment.

 

"Lighten up Francis"

One huge positive here, is the sound set in these locos is one of the best I’ve heard. It truly is spot on. 

hokie71 posted:

Rattler and GG1,

Not to steal the thread or criticize anyone but I would have guessed the opposite of the example you gave.  Any guesses on what might be behind the thinking?  

No judgement on my part either, but most in 2 rail tend to come from a modeling background only because it is such a small market space compared to 3 rail.  As a result they just tend to fix things and move on partially because they have not just the skills, but also the correct tools to make most minor corrections.   

I'm not at all implying that 3 railers aren't modelers as well and this forum shows that clearly, but with the relative abundance of product in the market there is simply a different expectation that everything be perfect out of the box.

Don't get me wrong, I would love that too but for these small runs, it just isn't possible to catch everything.  Should there be better quality control?  Absolutely.  The reality is the manufacturer wants it to be right too.  I can say from my consulting to 3rd Rail we agonize over minor issues in production only to find that it wasn't that big a deal and then alternatively think something isn't a big deal and catch he-double-hockey-sticks over it. 

Paint it or return it.

I agree with Jeff, sounds great and runs great on my layout. I am happy.

I think that this says it all:

"Every manufacturers' catalogs have the disclaimer that the final product may vary from the picture in the catalog. "

I see it as an easy fix.

PAUL ROMANO posted:

"Lighten up Francis"

X2. Much ado about what is essentially nothing.

It looks like about 30 minutes with some flat black paint and a small brush would solve your problem.

Where's the problem?

I certainly hope (but doubt) your correspondence to MTH is better phrased and carries a tone of politeness rather than what comes across here in your several posts. It never hurts to at least start off nice and assume that the issue will be resolved in a manner agreeable to all. This is supposed to be fun and relaxing. Give MTH a chance...

I'll not claim to know what is "correct" or more prototypical, but what was produced clearly is not what was cataloged. 

If a company specifically goes to the trouble with Photoshop (or whatever professional product they use these days) to show the grilles as black, they should be black out of the box.

When I saw the catalog pic the first thing that caught my eye was the vertical grills under the angled ones near the top.  "Oh, those are interesting."

I'd be upset too if I had ordered and they were not that way out of the box.  Silly me, I expect good quality control/production monitoring too.

As for the grille under the numbering on the other side, I don't have a specific opinion there, not knowing what makes more sense (like I said, have no idea of prototype).  It would look OK to me either way, but if the orange is broken up with solid black grilles for the vertical ones and the angled ones near the top on each side, it would sort of make sense that the one on the other side should be pure black as well.  (Had the vertical ones not been black, I would expect the split color was better for the paint scheme).

That said, I'm sure there is nothing that will happen to "fix" this.  Hopefully your dealer will issue a full refund, but I can't imagine MTH actually fixing the paint to make it match the catalog (though there are a few recent examples from other companies lately that were swapped out for bad paint matches, I think those were more shades wrong or trucks wrong color - though I'm not following those too close since I didn't buy those items.)

-Dave

For 500 dollars that sucker better look like the picture.

GG1 4877 posted:

rattler21 posted:

Many moons ago John Smith(PRB) compared three rail modelers and two rail modelers.  He sold 150 two rail Santa Fe Hudson locomotives, not one complaint.  From the same production run he sold 50 three rail Santa Fe Hudson locomotives, twenty five were returned for cosmetic alterations.

Would a black felt tip marker make the job easy?

John in Lansing, ILL

This is typical for 3rd Rail product as well.

To the OP, I'd offer that if you are that unhappy with it, return it for a refund.  In my experience on the receiving end of criticism, justified and not, a phone call or email directly to the manufacturer explaining the problem at least generates a conversation and a greater willingness to try and make it right.  Posting on a public forum and telling everyone to avoid a product typically gets ignored. 

Not at all saying that is right, just stating a fact in a niche manufacturing reality.

To get MTH to even answer the telephone for a warranty issue is a great concern because they don't.  

I read the OP's all caps, three exclamation marks ("BEWARE!!!") and thought it was going to refer to a fire hazard or some such exceptional issue.

If Ricko's photo is the prototype, shame on MTH for correcting an error in their advertising to achieve a more accurate production model.

Engine paint schemes change over time. Is it possible that the engine was painted like the model at some point in time? As picky as I am, if it runs well and has no other defects, I would be satisfied with this model as delivered. Just my opinion.

MELGAR

The prototype and the model, both photos from this thread.

The presentation in the catalog and the model with some details painted/highlighted/weathered to resemble the presentation in the catalog, both photos from this thread.

John in Lansing, ILL

So they made it more correctly than your perceived correctness. Talk about over reaction. Beware. Ha!

For whatever reason, Ricko's original post didn't show the picture for me
(still doesn't).  (so I didn't realize a prototype photo was here when I wrote my first post.)  I now see it in Rattler21's post.

So yes, it seems MTH made it more "correct".  It would have been nice if they had made the computer art for the catalog the same way so as to not mislead people.  It's not like they make an engineering mock up and take a picture of it, it's a computer CAD graphic! 

Maybe if they can't get the details right (in terms of how they intend to produce the item), they are offering too many items per catalog?  Would seem the staff can't keep up with drawing the items correctly.  (then again, the disclaimer mentioned a few times in the thread.... "items may vary from pictorial representations depicted". It's great that they assume everyone will be happier when they get it closer to prototype, but not everyone has the same hierarchy of what matters in their purchase.  Some put prototypical accuracy at the top, others may put "unique" or "cool" factor above how close it is to the prototype)

I get the prototypical accuracy is 1st in the importance list for a lot of people (not suggesting it's wrong, f course.  But MANY people who are of that opinion seemingly can't grasp that someone else might have bought the engine because they thought the way it was presented "looks cool" (prototypical or not be darned ). 

While I did not order this engine, I could easily see myself flipping through the catalog and noticing the grilles and saying "Wow, those 'pop' and pull your eye to the detail that the grilles are there".  Had I done so and ordered the engine, I too would probably be disappointed and probably would seek to get out of my pre-order due to this "unique" aspect not being as shown during the order period.

The fact that Jeff had one all painted up like this and ready to go for a photo, I think shows that others must like this look as well.  (I know Jeff is really good, but I don't think he did that work in the time between when this post was started and when he posted the pic! )

I will admit I would not be quite as emphatic (would not likely post with "BEWARE!!.....") as the OP, but, I obviously can see the perspective of disappointment.

-Dave

It's a matter of shadows. Put something dark behind the grills. Surely one can accomplish that.

The only 'problem' I see is the air tanks sitting too low. The fuel tanks look different. Maybe not, could be camera angle.

northern southerner posted:

BEWARE!!!

Most of us are.  That's why we don't pre-order anymore.  We pay attention to the manufacturer warnings and choose not to accept the risk. 

You chose, either directly or by omission, to not read and/or heed the manufacturer warnings regarding pictures and the actual product.  Own your oversight.

This is......an extremely major omission...…

Really? How do you categorize the various out of the box issues which are far more severe than this? With all the other out of the box issues over the past year this one doesn't even register.  It's like a fish you catch which too small to keep - throw it back until it grows up.   Which is exactly your ONLY other recourse since you don't want to re-paint it yourself - send it back. 

I just finished my popcorn and am now on to more important things....like York!

- Greg

northern southerner posted:

BEWARE!!! Has anybody ordered or received the recently delivered 20-21058-1, AC4400cw Diesel Engine w/Proto-Sound 3.0 (Hi-Rail Wheels) - BNSF that was advertised and illustrated both on the MTH website and Catalog and was not as described (major paint scheme discrepancy).

The access panel grills on the rear sides of the engine are not black as described or illustrated by MTH. The black access panel grills are the main reason I wanted this version of this particular engine. This is a not a minor detail omission but an extremely major omission so I do not consider it an acceptable factory manufacturing or design adjustment.

 

If this is your biggest issue, let me tell you about my Lionel Legacy Mogul...…..

Well, it's 70 years later.  The catalog artwork doesn't match the delivered item......even though the delivered item is (more) prototypical....

When the hobby becomes this potentially disruptive to the sensitivities it's time to re-evaluate continued participation.....IMHO. 

I won't be around, of course, but this complaint will be back in another 70 years, I predict.

KD (a.k.a., Lucas Gudinov)

https://ogrforum.com/...rak-diesels-cars-etc

Yep, maybe even sooner!

That Lionel picture is a hoot, kudos to KD for winning the encyclopedic memory award for today!

One more lesson I have learned on this thread, I am happy I collect mostly NS and NW. Although a bit boring, hard to debate black and white!

MELGAR posted:

Engine paint schemes change over time. Is it possible that the engine was painted like the model at some point in time? 

MELGAR

BINGO! The catalog and the model are both correct.

A quick "Google" of the BNSF AC4400 CW can give a train dummy like myself all the info.

Scroll down on this website for photos of 5600 with black as well as orange grills:

http://www.qstation.org/5600/bnsf5600.html

hokie71 posted:

One more lesson I have learned on this thread, I am happy I collect mostly NS and NW. Although a bit boring, hard to debate black and white!

Ummmm....... you do know about the Lonel NS Genset from some years back, right?

Aside from the fact that the horse graphic on the nose was flipped (left to right, so facing the wrong way), it was a beautiful engine.  That type of thing would also not be "easy" for most people to fix, I am sure.

-Dave

RickO posted:

MELGAR posted:

Engine paint schemes change over time. Is it possible that the engine was painted like the model at some point in time? 

MELGAR

BINGO! The catalog and the model are both correct.

A quick "Google" of the BNSF AC4400 CW can give a train dummy like myself all the info.

Scroll down on this website for photos of 5600 with black as well as orange grills:

http://www.qstation.org/5600/bnsf5600.html

Good gosh, wish some of you guys were into three rail in the 70's when I got back into it. If anything came out then that looked this great we would think we were in heaven. Get into two rail and brass if you don't like mass produced trains with this kind of wonderful detail. Paint fades and colors change. We are lucky we have Lionel, MTH, Atlas, Williams and others still making three rail.  Don

"To me this is false and misleading advertising (bait and switch) far from any small deviation that they could claim as a disclaimer." Give me a brake. This is bait and switch! "Of course, there was the time when he sold him a horse. It was really a mule." "Fidler on the Roof." Now that's bait and switch. Don

First, I like to apologize to all who thought that I was overly dramatic in my wording on how I started this post, but than again it was a very dramatic day when I received my order, opened the box and found the paint scheme not to be what I expected.

Here are some pictures to show where the MTH factory started to paint the grills black but then stopped for some reason (the model versus a real world prototypical).  On the left side of the engine, the front lower grill (under the 7) is partially painted black (lower half of the grill) and the rear lower grill is fully and correctly painted black to match the prototypical.  For sure a MTH factory defect.   Before making the original post I did contact MTH about this but still no reply (some have basically have said good luck with that).  Otherwise the model's workmanship is one of the best I have seen.  I still have not made my mind up to either return it or fix it myself.