BT Control of Legacy Locomotives

You can either use the Lionel app or the universal remote to control them via BT.  No idea on what version they are using.

The free Lionel Lion Chief app runs the Legacy engines also if they have Bluetooth.  You can run an engine using the app while you are also using the Legacy remote to run other engines at the same time.  The app will only control one engine at a time.  If you had two smart devices you could run 2 engines using apps and still use the Legacy remote to control additional engines.

JFC454 posted:

The free Lionel Lion Chief app runs the Legacy engines also if they have Bluetooth.  You can run an engine using the app while you are also using the Legacy remote to run other engines at the same time.  The app will only control one engine at a time.  If you had two smart devices you could run 2 engines using apps and still use the Legacy remote to control additional engines.

I thought that the Lion Chief app/remote was a crippled version of the Legacy Remote in that all of the functionality of Legacy Remote like moving switches, turning power on/off to blocks, controlling multiple engines, etc. was missing.  Why would I want to go backward in functionality? I would think that Lionel could create a box that would send Legacy commands to a locomotive using the BT transport Protocol. The only problem then would be the distance the BT protocol would provide. If one had a 30 x 30 foot layout, the signal may not get to the engine if the engine is more than 30 feet from the box assuming Lionel is not using version 4.0 or 5.0.

Limited or not.(I don't know what version it is) You can run a new Legacy locomotive with any smart phone tablet etc and nothing else is needed.

Your phone communicates directly with the locomotive.

This is unlike Mth where you still need a TIU as well as A WiFi unit for Bluetooth operation because your phone merely takes the place of the DCS handheld.

Here's a link to Lionels FREE app: http://www.lionel.com/bluetooth/

I may be a sample of one, but I'm not overwhelmed with the range of the BT running my new H10.  I used the LC application on three different models of phone, all of them repeatedly drop the engine as you're running and you have to reconnect. 

I'll be sticking to my plain old Legacy CAB1 or the CAB1L thanks, when I want the locomotive to do something, I don't want to see an error message that it's lost connection.

Wasn't the app updated in the last few weeks? I'm not sure if the range was improved with the update. I recall sand jams video where the wrong engine number came up and he had to reinstall it.

I downloaded the app a week ago and the engine came up correctly and I had no loss of control on my modest 10x16 layout.

I prefer the legacy handheld remote as well. I tried the Bluetooth app out since it was free, in case my legacy remote ever has an issue I can still run trains.

RickO posted:

Wasn't the app updated in the last few weeks? I'm not sure if the range was improved with the update. I recall sand jams video where the wrong engine number came up and he had to reinstall it.

I downloaded the app a week ago and the engine came up correctly and I had no loss of control on my modest 10x16 layout.

I prefer the legacy handheld remote as well. I tried the Bluetooth app out since it was free, in case my legacy remote ever has an issue I can still run trains.

The "App" may have been updated but the BT protocol on the Locomotive was not.  If the version on the Locomotive is Ver2.0 then the range would be in the neighborhood of 30 feet.  Version 5.0 is in the neighborhood of 500 feet. Version 5.0 is so new I strongly believe that Lionel is not using it. 

gunrunnerjohn posted:

I may be a sample of one, but I'm not overwhelmed with the range of the BT running my new H10.  I used the LC application on three different models of phone, all of them repeatedly drop the engine as you're running and you have to reconnect. 

I'll be sticking to my plain old Legacy CAB1 or the CAB1L thanks, when I want the locomotive to do something, I don't want to see an error message that it's lost connection.

GRJ, you are technically astute.  Why don't you take on the task of creating the box that would send Legacy commands to the Locomotive using the BT protocol? The drawback would be as you experienced, comm dropouts due to the limited distance of version 2.0.

I don't think Lionel ever considered the BT protocol for us guys with larger layouts  Hence the inexpensive Locomotives probably using the less expensive license for version 2.0.

Loose-Caboose posted:

GRJ, you are technically astute.  Why don't you take on the task of creating the box that would send Legacy commands to the Locomotive using the BT protocol? The drawback would be as you experienced, comm dropouts due to the limited distance of version 2.0.

Did you refer to my signature line, right at the top?  

Loose-Caboose posted:

RickO posted:

Wasn't the app updated in the last few weeks? I'm not sure if the range was improved with the update. I recall sand jams video where the wrong engine number came up and he had to reinstall it.

I downloaded the app a week ago and the engine came up correctly and I had no loss of control on my modest 10x16 layout.

I prefer the legacy handheld remote as well. I tried the Bluetooth app out since it was free, in case my legacy remote ever has an issue I can still run trains.

The "App" may have been updated but the BT protocol on the Locomotive was not.  If the version on the Locomotive is Ver2.0 then the range would be in the neighborhood of 30 feet.  Version 5.0 is in the neighborhood of 500 feet. Version 5.0 is so new I strongly believe that Lionel is not using it. 

Like John I had issues where it kept disconnecting, if I got more then 6 feet from the locomotive, or even turned my back on the loco.

Loose-Caboose posted:

 As a second question. Do we know what version of BT Lionel is using? Since ver 2.0 is limited to 30 feet a large size layout may have comm problems. Thoughts? 

This really has nothing to do with which version of Bluetooth Lionel is using but more to do with which power class of Bluetooth has been implemented with their products. See the chart below:

You can have Bluetooth 5.0 but if it is a class 3 device, your range will be very limited. Lionel's filing with the FCC for the Universal remote indicates that the universal remote has a maximum power output of 1mW. That makes it a class 3 device. You may get more range than that but it's not guaranteed. Most smart phones and tablets have Class 2 power output.

Beings that the Universal remote is a class three device, it would make sense that the locomotives are also class three devices.

If you are interested, here is a link to Lionel's FCC filing for the Universal remote (Functional description of the universal remote). Below is an excerpt from that document which indicates the 1mw power rating:

My experience with the universal remote has been mostly reliable to 20 feet on layouts with a few tunnels and scenery obstructions. I have had some problems on larger layouts with more obstructions.

As far as I'm concerned, unless I see much better performance than I got here, the BT is just an unneeded extra for me. 

This may be slightly off topic, but with the several OGauge engines I have converted to the BlueRail bluetooth drop-in board, I have gotten consistent reliable control over 100 feet. There is no technical limit to what can be obtained with the latest bluetooth technology, but the included set of control functions are a design decision and TMCC/Legacy will currently by choice do much more in its track signal mode.

BOB WALKER posted:

This may be slightly off topic, but with the several OGauge engines I have converted to the BlueRail bluetooth drop-in board, I have gotten consistent reliable control over 100 feet.

Well... yes.  Since this has nothing to do with controlling Legacy BT equipped engines, and you're using different hardware, it doesn't really apply.

I don't think there's any argument that if you have good BT equipment at both ends you'll get much better range.  Truthfully, I'd have to see the 100 feet in person, especially if there's any tunnel or obstructions in play.  That being said, I should be able to get more consistent operation standing 10 feet away with my phone in clear view of the locomotive!

At club meets we were able to control engines on the club layout with members using their smart phones while standing in the parking lot. Best widely used range coverage example I can think of is that smart home devices are based on BluetoothLE. Lionel may have chosen a limited range version for specific reasons.

RickO posted:

 

This is unlike Mth where you still need a TIU as well as A WiFi unit for Bluetooth operation because your phone merely takes the place of the DCS handheld.

Actually, MTH’s solution does not use Bluetooth at all.  Your phone or tablet uses WIFI to communicate with the WIU which has a physical connection to the TIU, which communicates with the locomotive.  No Bluetooth anywhere.