Building a D-27 Disappearing Layout In 0-27

I believe steam engine with Magna-Traction were originally used on the D-27 layout. The problem is that the Scout engine has neither Magna-Traction nor the weight to get good traction. I would imagine a modern heavy engine with traction tires could make the pull.

It was a magna-traction demonstration as well as an entertaining trick. I'd say a can motor loco would pull the cars out of the tunnel.

I think this is a restored D-27  Edit: I stand corrected. It's the original

Here's a rendition of it by a nearby 4-H Club. In the about, he describes the issue of keeping a train on the track.

If you head over to YouTube, there are a number of videos featuring Disappearing Train Layouts. Might give you some leads on the loco and other layout features.

Edit: I see Moonman beat me to it!

I think the original had a 2035 on it if I recall

Thanks guys.  I only count 8 gondolas on the You Tube one, that may be part of my problem.  That engine looks like the postwar K-4, what's that 2035? That might be small enough to navigate the 0-27 curves. The video shows how fast this thing has to run to make it up the grade.  All the traction tire locos, diecast and plastic fly off the track at speed.  Anyone know a way of magnetizing the track?   

Thanks Christopher, that confirms my assumption.

I also think the 027 track was custom curved for a few of the curves. I'm going off memory here  I know there a couple of the scout style gondolas 1001s & no caboose from what I have seen

cannt you create blocks, the section where you need the speed is directly wired to the transformer, the sections where you want to slow it down is wired through one or more 1 ohm radio shack resistors.

The D-27 has O-Gauge track, a custom cut section or two, and a piece or two of O-72 also maybe cut some, maybe not.

I would love to learn how to do that, unfortunately I have very limited wiring skill.  would the resistors run in line with the center rail then?

Yeah, I guess that is going to be the bigger trick, getting this to work with 0-27 curves and lower profile rail.  I needed to shrink the foot print from 4 x 8 to 32" x 88" to fit the space I'm working in.

Yes, you create blocks by removing the center steel pin and replacing it with a plastic pin in the first rail in the block and the last rail in the block. You then have a lockon attached somewhere in the block. If it is a high speed section the lockon goes directly to the transformer. If a slow speed block the wire from the transformer going to the center rail connects to one end of the resistor or group of resistors and the other end of the resistor/s continues to the center rail.  

Interesting.  So I would have to experiment with how many resistors I would need to slow the train at that point.  Is there a rule of thumb on the number of resistors to use?  I'm guessing an accessory with flashing lights may have the same effect, no?

I have used them on downhill sections and typically three 1 ohm resistors does the trick. I do not think an accessory will accomplish the same thing.

There's been several threads on here about this subject over the years so check the archives for more info.

And Chris you are correct it was a 2035 with scout gondolas and no caboose.  I remember seeing it as a kid in Kaufmann's window in downtown Pittsburgh in 1950.

Bill

Isolate the blocks as described above and instead of using resistors purchase another cheap transformer to power the block. Then you can adjust the speed using the lever on the transformer. Much easier to do than trying to find the right resistor combo. You may have to lock the e-unit in forward, though.

If you wanted to get real fancy, you could use three cheap transformers, one for level, one for downhill, and one for uphill. They wouldn't need to be large expensive transformers for the size of layout you're building. You also wouldn't need to purchase another engine.

If I had the room I would build one. Not true to the original of course but I would use a modern engine with cruse control,can motor and traction tires.

Use a combination of Marx O-27(34) and Lionel or K-Line O-27(42),O-27(54), and O-27(72) and you should be able to get a workable around-under-around-back up loop. 

You can use easement curve with these track sections too, easing the train into and out of the loop instead of "slamming" into it.

The problem is that pickup rollers bridge the 2 transformers,putting them in parallel. This is not breaker protected and can damage the transformers. This can be prevented with a relay system and using diodes as a voltage dropper.

Dale H

Does this only apply to using different transformers?  I was reading the manuals for the ZW-C and ZW-L (wanted to know what the difference between them was) and they showed just directly connecting the transformer in blocks so each channel of the ZW could apply different power to each block of an up and down layout, but says nothing about relays or diodes.

That applys to separate transformers. The ZW uses a common ground for all the channels. I still think using resistors is the cheapest solution based on experience.

http://www.radioshack.com/prod...sp?productId=2062290

So if you phase all the transformers and tie the common together on them, will you still need relays for block borders?

I just googled "using separate transformers for blocks" and as long as you phase the transformers and connect their common grounds you can use them for separate blocks.

Mel

Take a PWZW. Set A terminal at 6 volts and D terminal at 18 volts. Then connect A and D with a 22 gauge wire. You will find it will get hot and burn up without the breaker tripping. The same thing would happen if they were connected to 2 adjacent blocks and were bridged via the 22 gauge wire connecting the pickup rollers of a lighted caboose,or passenger car. It is not about the common ground,in fact the current flow in this instance is not through the ground. 

Here is a board using bridge rectifiers as voltage droppers (far right on board). 2 of the relays are used determine trolley speed uphill and down hill. Only outside insulated rails are needed to activate relays when the trolley is on the grades, center rails are not isolated so there is no roller jumping problem. The rest of the relays route 3 trolleys on a loop and provide a soft start,also timed trolley stops. But for speed regulation all that is needed are 2 relays and some rectifiers.

Dale H

Dale:

I'm not that familar with the PWZW but as stated above it clearly shows in the user manual for the electronic version of the ZW you can control 4 separate blocks by wiring each bock to each of the 4 output terminals. There also are mutiple sites where this is discussed and if phased and common ground it will work. See page 17 and the other link which is one of many. Is there something different about newer power sources that the example with the PWZW no longer applies?

http://www.lionel.com/media/se...ents/72-2982-250.pdf

http://dfarq.homeip.net/2010/1...r-on-a-train-layout/  

Mel

Thats the modern ZW with solid state output. That does not have the back feed problem so you could maybe get away with doing it. However not a good idea with 2 transformers of the PW type.

Dale H

I've been doing this with postwar transformers for years. Using 2 LW's currenty. Never had any problems. I didn't realize this could be problem. Seems like a lot of wiring diagrams from the postwar/mpc era used this method.

Perhaps it is better to use the resistor's. It just seemed so easy to use transformers.

It was easy to get away with it for the most part in the past, but newer passenger cars and cabin cars especially with Lionel now have current pickups on both trucks(even the basic sets like the PE and all the Pennsy Flyer variants) to mitigate the flicker, and the wiring is a very thin gauge designed for little more than the current of the bulbs in the car.  These get "smoked" quite frequently from bridging two blocks.

Hope people dont think I'm dragging this transformer powering blocks issue too much but I did further research. There are a series of soft cover books by Peter Riddle "Wiring Your Lionel Layout" Volume 1 through 3. I'm looking at Volume 2, copy right 1993, Chapter 5, page 31 where there is a very clear diagram of two blocks connected to one transformer where one block is powered by a terminal A and the other block by terminal B. That is just one specific example from these series of books where this technique is used. Going back to Dales example of connecting the A and D terminal, that is not the true picture of what happens when the front roller say is on the A terminal and rear roller is on the D terminal. There is a load in the circuit, the motor, and there is a third connection, the common ground.    

Another publication using this technique is The Lionel Train Book, copy right 1986, chapter 9 page 62 where they have two blocks and a chart showing the connections to various Lionel transformers including the PWZW. In the example one block is connected to either A or D and the other block is connected to B or C. How can all these books be wrong?

Mel

suppose you are running the train and the engine derails with a passenger car bridging A and D? We plan for all contingencies,that is why circuit breakers are put in houses for example. Even with a ground connection and load there is still a path though the secondary windings and thin pickup roller wiring.

Even with the modern ZW, the bridging problem is not solved. A passenger train going downhill would bridge the 2 transformer taps all the way down the hill and not really slow down. The thin wire connecting the rollers would also be carrying the current.

Dale H

The original instructions tell the dealer to use a VW or ZW transformer. All four terminals are used to either deliver various voltages to the track or run the accessories. Bridging a block with the sort of roller pickup on a 2035 is no problem. The two rollers are one assembly, all steel. No wire between the two rollers. Lionel publications from the 1940's and 1950's mention using fixed voltages on upgrades and down grades to help the operator avoid having to constantly adjust the throttle. No resistors, diodes, etc. Lionel back in the day did not have wiring in its rolling stock that would bridge two blocks. That's why all the bulbs always blinked. Later F3's are on example when Lionel mounted two separate pick up assemblies that could cause a bridging problem. If you watch the video closely you will see the train slow down just when it reaches the semaphore. The instructions do show a separate block beginning at that point. Here's a poor copy of the instructions off the internet. Sorry for the poor quality, but you can see how it was wired if you concentrate. Probably not a good idea to run modern trains on this sort of layout.

I do not doubt Lionel said to do it that way. Just not a good idea IMO for the reasons I mentioned.

Dale H

Dale is correct and I learned what he’s talking about the hard way.  I had a derailment and a K-Line passenger car was bridging two blocks (the block with the short and another block) each fed by a different PW ZW.  The wiring in that car is now history. 

With no lights, now I call it a sleeping car!

HTH,

Bill

The 2-6-4 2035 was cataloged as O-27.  The later 2-6-4 2025 is the same engine but without the magnatraction, both the early 2-6-2 and later 2-6-4 versions of the 2026 are completely different locos from the Belpaire fire box 675/2025/2035.

Bill:
     Were the two PWZW's in phase and was the common, U, on the two of them connected?

          Mel

Couldn't the operation for this layout could be accomplished with the TMCC Action recorder or the Legacy unit and a compatible engine with a constant voltage track?

Thanks guys, some great information here.  I'm in pursuit of a good 2035 and re-configuring the grades a bit.  I like the idea off resistors, I'm going to check that out. Bigo426, do you have a better scan of that wiring diagram?  I've searched online and even spent $1.45 on a CTT download (which had no information on wiring, BTW), but the wiring seems to be a closely guarded secret, LOL!

I found the instruction sheet on line. It looked just as blurry. Sorry.