built to order?

Yes, if you want it, you have to order it. But you don't pay if it's not made of course. Dealers may have a few extras but no guarantees.

a lot of your larger dealers will keep a few popular roadnames for people who did not get it on preorder just watch for the delivery date so you can be one of the first who grabs one of the extras

Simply speaking Built to order means just that . When the catalog is released, large dealers and Local Hobby shots  will solicit your pre-order for items. When the catalog order deadline arrives, the dealer and /or hobby shop will place an order for the pre-orders he may have received to that point. In some cases, a dealer may order additional units for stock if the response in the preorder period has been good. So in some cases it may be possible to place an order for a Built to order item after the catalog order cut-off date. Bottom line is if you want a Built to order item, placing a preorder for it may be the best approach. Check with dealers as to their policy for deposits at the pre-order point.

Points of clarification.

First, Built to Order means Lionel will make the number of units ordered by dealers, whether those orders are for their customers or the dealers themselves. All preorders must go through authorized dealers.

Second, once the preorder deadline has passed, neither the dealer nor the hobbyist can order any more. (I still have a hard time believing Lionel doesn't make a few more to satisfy warranty service or other practical considerations, but Lionel certainly doesn't guarantee availability after the preorder deadline.)

So, if you want it, you have to preorder it. Large dealers, especially those who sell on the Internet, may have a few extra on hand, but that will likely be a tight supply that will dry up fast.

You may see a few show up on the secondary market bought from a dealer by those who merely acquired a model to resell it because they anticipated exceptional demand. But then the cost will likely be much higher than the suggested list price.

I think you have to pay a deposit on pre-orders. I have an outstanding Atlas O pre-order and a Lionel pre-order. My LHS required a deposit. 10% I think. Of course, if the manufacturer cancels, I get my money back.

Oman posted:

I think you have to pay a deposit on pre-orders. I have an outstanding Atlas O pre-order and a Lionel pre-order. My LHS required a deposit. 10% I think. Of course, if it the manufacturer cancels, I get my money back.

I think I would find a different hobby shop.

No deposit at my LHS  -

Don't cry PaigeTrain - just be ready when they are shipped it to call around and find a dealer who ordered a few extra.... otherwise - break out the tissues...

MartyE posted:

My LHS used to not require a deposit that I know of.  I never noticed because when I placed my order I started paying for the items so maybe they did.  Now, I pretty sure they do require a small one as in the past couple of cycles they got burned by folks ordering and then cancelling.  I can't say I blame them.  While a larger shop like Nassau and Ro can absorb a cancellation and most likely find another buyer if someone backs out, the smaller store may not.  At least not as quickly.

I haven't dealt with Ro, but I know from personal experience that Nassau takes a deposit on pre-orders that is non-refundable (unless possibly if the item is ultimately cancelled by the manufacturer). Even If the manufacturer changes the specifications of the item after the deposit money is taken, or puts off promised delivery for years, that pre-order deposit is still non-refundable. That's why I will never again put  any money up in order to secure a pre-order or B-T-O.

Bill in FtL

This is not the first case of the BTO concept.  Lionel did have the SP Train Master at a 1950's train show.  It was not built because there were too few dealers which ordered it.

that's my problem with manufactures,  if you don't have the money to mass produce,  find someone else to run the business,

what do you think henry ford did,,,,,the business in this country is so screwed up,  sure you have the epass, , and other bs regulations,  business now days is run by, make 2, charge millions, and make your profits that way, instead of  over the long run, employing people,  to make those profits, by mass production,,,,= low cost,  = more people can buy = profits......

Jim R. posted:

Second, once the preorder deadline has passed, neither the dealer nor the hobbyist can order any more. (I still have a hard time believing Lionel doesn't make a few more to satisfy warranty service or other practical considerations, but Lionel certainly doesn't guarantee availability after the preorder deadline.)

It is my understanding that Lionel does produce a number of extra units for each engine made - some are held for warranty purposes, and others are broken down and used for spare parts.  I suspect that the intact units are released to big dealers after some time has passed and they are confident that warranty replacements won't be needed, or they may be held for special sales like the LCCA events at Lionel's HQ.

As far as having to pass up on items I want - been there and done that.  I can think of about 6 engines in the new catalogs that I want but can't swing right now with all the other stuff I have on pre-order.  The nice thing is that, with patience, these items will be produced again (often with upgraded features/details/sounds), or at least will eventually show up on the secondary market (often at really good prices).

Andy

I have many items preordered from RO. Never requires any money down, regardless of order size. Currently have an FEF 844 on order in addition to many items from the new catalogue. They charge your CC once THEY ship the item to you.

laidoff'sdad posted:

I have many items preordered from RO. Never requires any money down, regardless of order size. Currently have an FEF 844 on order in addition to many items from the new catalogue. They charge your CC once THEY ship the item to you.

I have no problem paying a 10% deposit to my small LHS. Charlie RO is a huge retailer and can easily find a buyer for the locomotive that someone fails to pick up. BTW, my LHS gives me a discounted price on the BTO. Which one would you rather have, a great price or no deposit.

Is a BTO a bacon, tomato and onion sandwich?  Sorry, but I have an issue with acronyms.

Oman posted:

I have no problem paying a 10% deposit to my small LHS. Charlie RO is a huge retailer and can easily find a buyer for the locomotive that someone fails to pick up. BTW, my LHS gives me a discounted price on the BTO. Which one would you rather have, a great price or no deposit..

you have a lot to learn about Charles Ro!!

bigdodgetrain posted:

Oman posted:

I have no problem paying a 10% deposit to my small LHS. Charlie RO is a huge retailer and can easily find a buyer for the locomotive that someone fails to pick up. BTW, my LHS gives me a discounted price on the BTO. Which one would you rather have, a great price or no deposit..

you have a lot to learn about Charles Ro!!

Enlighten me. So, Charlie gives discounts on BTO?

"Is a BTO a bacon, tomato and onion sandwich?  Sorry, but I have an issue with acronyms."

Wasn't BTO a band?

J Daddy posted:

"Is a BTO a bacon, tomato and onion sandwich?  Sorry, but I have an issue with acronyms."

Wasn't BTO a band?

Yes, that one went over my head. I have original BTO "Not Fragile" on vinyl.

BTO has really been a double-edged sword for our hobby.  It's leveled the playing field CONSIDERABLY for dealers of all sizes so they can better compete for pre-orders... as compared to the past model, whereby only Lionel's largest dealers could "afford" to order large quantities of product "on spec".  Then enthusiasts would need to often buy product from those larger dealers with big inventories to ensure they'd actually get what they ordered. 

With BTO today, all dealers  are essentially competing for pre-orders.  And as long as there's no serious fall-out from customers backing out of pre-orders, there's a lot LESS risk for smaller shops/dealers to order larger quantities of product (since those orders are presumably backed by solid customer pre-sales plus a few extras).

The most recent Lionel catalogs with BTO items have encountered some interesting market nuances though... Namely, there's still a good deal of BTO product in dealer inventories today almost 6 full months after product delivery:  i.e., think NYC ESE passenger sets, NYC ESE Hudsons, Heavy Mikados, ES44 diesels, etc...  Even MTH's new NS OCS passenger sets and locomotives are readily available as we speak! 

So perhaps more dealers ordered "too many extras" this time, and they haven't sold through their inventory yet -- even at prices lower than the earlier pre-order prices.   That's the wild-card in the BTO era.  There's no guarantee you'll find BTO items at these great prices, but we all "feel better" when we can go on a shopping-spree and get more product for our dollars.  OTOH, some folks prefer knowing they're100% certain of receiving an item they want, so they pre-order and never look back if prices fluctuate.  There's no right or wrong approach here.

Next year, more of us might play the waiting game and shop for BTO items a few months after products arrive Stateside.  But admittedly, there's no guarantee those "extra" products will still be on dealer shelves then (like they are now).  And they may or may not be discounted.  Could perhaps be premium-priced.  So how lucky do you feel?   

I'm playing the waiting game... Didn't pre-order any 2016 Lionel locomotives, but I have my eye on a couple.  If they sell out via BTO pre-orders, that's OK.  I just feel somewhat put off by the fact that so many  2015 BTO items are "on sale" now for less than their pre-order / early-buy prices.  And that's true of products from nearly all the importers.

David

Oman posted:

bigdodgetrain posted:

Oman posted:

I have no problem paying a 10% deposit to my small LHS. Charlie RO is a huge retailer and can easily find a buyer for the locomotive that someone fails to pick up. BTW, my LHS gives me a discounted price on the BTO. Which one would you rather have, a great price or no deposit..

you have a lot to learn about Charles Ro!!

Enlighten me. So, Charlie gives discounts on BTO?

Yes. Good competitive pricing...varies with the item sometimes, but can't get hurt if you don't shop.

 " Build to Order"  will be a failing sales strategy and let me tell you why.  1. You are trying to sell something sight unseen.  2. There is no history or user reviews on what you will be buying to guide you  3. the volume will be low and the price will be high.  4. The risk falls 100% on the consumer.

I predict a grim future for the model railroad hobby if this strategy continues to be applied.  Speaking as a former marketing manager;  you cannot possibly be successful selling in this fashion.

Dennis LaGrua posted:

 " Build to Order"  will be a failing sales strategy and let me tell you why.  1. You are trying to sell something sight unseen.  2. There is no history or user reviews on what you will be buying to guide you  3. the volume will be low and the price will be high.  4. The risk falls 100% on the consumer.

I predict a grim future for the model railroad hobby if this strategy continues to be applied.  Speaking as a former marketing manager;  you cannot possibly be successful selling in this fashion.

I agree fully.

I'm into sci-fi stuff and vendors into that are notorious for doing stuff like that. Everything is treated as a 'startup', requiring money up front for stuff that doesn't exist. Then, you wait and wait and wait and then pray you haven't been shafted because too long has gone by for you to get your money back form pay pal. If it's a larger real 'company,' then there's always the coin flip whether they'll go bankrupt of not and you're left out the money and nothing in return.

Nope, I never, EVER spend money on stuff like that. Count me out, man.

Dennis LaGrua posted:

 " Build to Order"  will be a failing sales strategy and let me tell you why.  1. You are trying to sell something sight unseen.  2. There is no history or user reviews on what you will be buying to guide you  3. the volume will be low and the price will be high.  4. The risk falls 100% on the consumer.

I predict a grim future for the model railroad hobby if this strategy continues to be applied.  Speaking as a former marketing manager;  you cannot possibly be successful selling in this fashion.

Seems like since this is a hobby populated by rabid enthusiasts, your arguments might not totally apply.

Dennis LaGrua posted:

 " Build to Order"  will be a failing sales strategy and let me tell you why.  1. You are trying to sell something sight unseen.  2. There is no history or user reviews on what you will be buying to guide you  3. the volume will be low and the price will be high.  4. The risk falls 100% on the consumer.

I predict a grim future for the model railroad hobby if this strategy continues to be applied.  Speaking as a former marketing manager;  you cannot possibly be successful selling in this fashion.

Makes one wonder how Scott Mann's business model has ever enjoyed any success...

Oman posted:

bigdodgetrain posted:

Oman posted:

I have no problem paying a 10% deposit to my small LHS. Charlie RO is a huge retailer and can easily find a buyer for the locomotive that someone fails to pick up. BTW, my LHS gives me a discounted price on the BTO. Which one would you rather have, a great price or no deposit..

you have a lot to learn about Charles Ro!!

Enlighten me. So, Charlie gives discounts on BTO?

find page 9

http://www.charlesro.com/pdf/ogauge.pdf

and then a es44 listed as $544.95 early buy was $539.95 plus $10.00 shipping.

not a lot to some but better then nothing.

 and no deposit!!!

the bigboy was discounted even more.

In my mind, even though it wasn't called BTO, it was built to order. I purchased the majority of my locomotives and rolling stock more than 14 years ago before there were on-line dealers. First buying in Maine, then Florida and now NH, I never had a large dealer near me. So, if I didn't pre-order, the chance of me finding one after delivery was slim to none. In both Maine and Florida, I often drove to hobby stores within a 100 mile radius of where I lived. I found the odd piece of rolling stock that I would buy, but never a locomotive. I would go back to the same store a year later and see the same locomotives, nothing new. As for today's current state of affairs, I had 2 different bad experiences with 2 very large on-line dealers. I'm done with that. I will continue to support my local store, as I did in Maine and Florida. I also support my local hardware store vs. the big orange box store.

My LHS uses the Build to Order to his advantage. He will offer the great price to those who pre-order. Then will order a few extra if he thinks they will sell at a slightly higher price. If he sells them great, if not, then he has some wiggle room to offer a little off to someone who maybe on the fence about purchasing an item.

J Daddy posted:

My LHS uses the Build to Order to his advantage. He will offer the great price to those who pre-order. Then will order a few extra if he thinks they will sell at a slightly higher price. If he sells them great, if not, then he has some wiggle room to offer a little off to someone who maybe on the fence about purchasing an item.

J Daddy, I think the approach you're describing is a common practice for most LHS's and even smaller-sized dealers.  For those of us who've been in the hobby a while, it can be a bit entertaining to watch things play out.  

Take the newer, non-diecast Lionel ES44's as an example.  Those locomotives (among others) saw a huge price increase in both MSRP and pre-order street-price to $650 and $540-ish, respectively, in the past couple of Lionel catalogs.  So folks who bought the earlier Legacy diesels at $400-$450 (remember those days not that long ago?), think even the $540 pre-order pricetag is a lot of $$$ -- not to mention an LHS trying to sell them for $600+.

But very recently, we've seen several dealers offering these for sale at just under $500.  So it'll be interesting to see if these gems move at the newly discounted prices.  Then again, there are some LHS's who hold out for MSRP prices (very typical on the West coast)... hoping that enthusiasts who want something badly enough (and didn't already buy it earlier for whatever reason) will eventually  call them when the discounted inventories run out in other parts of the country.  Crazy market.

David

It is crazy, and add to the fact that allot of dealers speculated on the Big Boy, and still have them sitting on their shelf and cannot move them...

Considering the fact that they paid 1,500.00 from the the distributor and they are trying to sell them for even the BTO price of 1820.00...and they have been sitting there on the shelves for a year... you cannot make any money on these...

Now the Berks were different.  My LHS ordered 30 berks and they were all gone in one month. even a few at MSRP.

bigdodgetrain posted:

Oman posted:

bigdodgetrain posted:

Oman posted:

I have no problem paying a 10% deposit to my small LHS. Charlie RO is a huge retailer and can easily find a buyer for the locomotive that someone fails to pick up. BTW, my LHS gives me a discounted price on the BTO. Which one would you rather have, a great price or no deposit..

you have a lot to learn about Charles Ro!!

Enlighten me. So, Charlie gives discounts on BTO?

find page 9

http://www.charlesro.com/pdf/ogauge.pdf

and then a es44 listed as $544.95 early buy was $539.95 plus $10.00 shipping.

not a lot to some but better then nothing.

 and no deposit!!!

 

the bigboy was discounted even more.

Keep in mind, however, that the $544 is a sales price, as the MSRP on the engines are $649. 

Jim

BTO is obviously something done when they are sure of the demand, if you do a production run and no one wants it, no one is happy, the LHS that buys them is stuck with inventory, the manufacturer produces units no one wants, then has to get rid of them. For the consumer it stinks, because the wait time can be astronomical, you can pre order, then find they don't produce it or it is years late, then when it is produced it may not even be what you thought....

The problem is the market, when you are talking a low volume market there just isn't the wiggle room you have with more mass produced items. Notice that they don't do BTO with box cars and track and such, because they know they have reasonable expectations on selling it, but with the more expensive, risky units, they don't have much buffer if it doesn't pan out. From what I recall of Lionel history, even in the 'golden age' they would announce products that never shipped, so although they weren't doing BTO, in the end it kind of ended up the same way.