Hello Guys, Some years ago Sunset put out a model of a Burlington Zephyr 9903 Injun Joe, Mark Twain Consist. I recall reading that it was still around as late as the 1970's as a display. My question is what became of this train? 
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How criminal is that! What a shame to leave something like that in that type of shape. If they had done nothing and kept it simply all together it would be better than this deplorable condition. The elements are just eating the insides of this train. Indeed it would take a ton of money just to make it cosmetically appealing. Thanks Rusty for the update.
Just curious. What would it cost to be operational and could you run on any RR tracks?
Like the confederate Air Force restores and flys old military aircraft, could a group do that with a train? (I know they were forced to change the name to commemorative Air Force, but I'm not PC)
GVDobler posted:Just curious. What would it cost to be operational
Many, many, many millions!
and could you run on any RR tracks?
Similar to steam locomotives, plus the massive liability insurance requirements, I doubt any class 1 railroad would allow it to operate.
Like the confederate Air Force restores and flys old military aircraft, could a group do that with a train? (I know they were forced to change the name to commemorative Air Force, but I'm not PC)
The big difference is, the Commemorative Air Force does NOT really need permission to fly their aircraft in the earth's atmosphere.
Hot Water posted:GVDobler posted:Just curious. What would it cost to be operational
Many, many, many millions!
and could you run on any RR tracks?
Similar to steam locomotives, plus the massive liability insurance requirements, I doubt any class 1 railroad would allow it to operate.
Like the confederate Air Force restores and flys old military aircraft, could a group do that with a train? (I know they were forced to change the name to commemorative Air Force, but I'm not PC)
The big difference is, the Commemorative Air Force does NOT really need permission to fly their aircraft in the earth's atmosphere.
That's not quite true as I think they (CAF) were involved with moving a B-36 Peacemaker years ago. They wanted to move it from one airport to another under it's own power by flying and the government said NO! Civilians can not fly long range strategic bombers in US airspace. I guess that B-29's are the biggest.
It would make a great house!
I am a member of www.milwaukeerailroadshops.org. We own Great Northern steamer 1355. It has been estimated to cost $4,000,000.00 to return it to steam. The BNSF would want $100,000,000 worth of liability coverage based in when we had the Milwaukee National Convention in Sioux City about 10 years ago, We wanted the Milwaukee passenger train brought here for the meeting. We were informed 3 days before we had to provide that much coverage to take the train from Sioux City to Sioux Falls about 80 miles.
We made other arrangements to have the Dakota and Iowa meet us in Hawarden, IA about 1/2 way. The D&I has a Milwaukee GP9 that was used to pull the train.
Dick
Sounds like a conferation of clubs that own old steam and diesel power need to buy up, as a consortium, some branch or shortline, just to have a place to run equipment. Some museums such as the Kentucky one have a section of track they run tourist trains on.
Great News !!!
The Mark Twain Zephyr shells & trucks have recently been purchased & moved to the Wisconsin Great Northern RR in Trego, WI.
Trains magazine had an article about this.
The WGN plans to restore it to opearational status for use on their short line RR.
In O-gauge, models of the MTZ have been made by 3RD Rail, MTH, & Lionel.
Here's a link from the Trains Magazine newswire about the proposed restoration.
They certainly have their work cut out for them, the MTZ is just an empty shell and trucks.
Rusty
@CBQ_Bill posted:In O-gauge, models of the MTZ have been made by 3RD Rail, MTH, & Lionel.
Except they are all relabled Pioneer Zephyr models. There are significant differences between the PZ and MTZ.
Rusty
@CBQ_Bill posted:Great News !!!
The Mark Twain Zephyr shells & trucks have recently been purchased & moved to the Wisconsin Great Northern RR in Trego, WI.
Trains magazine had an article about this.
The WGN plans to restore it to opearational status for use on their short line RR.
In O-gauge, models of the MTZ have been made by 3RD Rail, MTH, & Lionel.
Bill,
Thank you so very much for bring this great news to the Forums attention!
@Rusty Traque posted:Here's a link from the Trains Magazine newswire about the proposed restoration.
They certainly have their work cut out for them, the MTZ is just an empty shell and trucks.
Rusty
Rusty,
Thanks for the link to the Trains Magazine newswire. The article also had link to the Wisconsin Great Northern Railroad, Midwest Rail Rangers - a 501(c)(3) non-profit organization, that purchased the Mark Twain Zephyr.
Below is a link to their site that explains their entire plan for the consist.
If you do a Facebook search you will find video of the move of Injun Joe and much more describing the the work currently going on. The other cars, including the dining car from the original Pioneer Zephyr, will be making the move to Trego in the next few weeks.
This link should also provide you with additional information.
Northwoods Flyer
Greg
Will they have to change the name before sensitive politically correct groups get their knickers in a knot about it?
@Rusty Traque posted:Except they are all relabled Pioneer Zephyr models. There are significant differences between the PZ and MTZ.
Rusty
Is there a compiled list somewhere of the differences? (I'm just curious).
Also, if anyone is looking at these, be aware the Lionel one suffered from a spelling error on the badging for Huck Finn. The spelled Finn with only one "n".
-Dave
The PZ, #9900, has a larger front grill that has a slight "tear drop" look to it9901 and 9902 the Twin, above the windows. The layout of the windows on the original 3 car consist are slightly different than the other Zephyrs of this series.
Pioneer Zephyr was the first. Followed by 9901 and 9902 the Twin City Zephyr (TCZ) which had grills above the cab windows that were more straight. Injun Joe, 9903 was a close match to the TCZ. But the seating arrangement and windows, ROP and baggage section were all slightly different.
These 4 were the only completely articulated sets that the Burlington purchased - the power unit was part of the articulated cars.
After these 4, the Burlington then invested in class EA's in which the power units were separate from the rest of the passenger cars. However, the early passenger consists were articulated.
If you want to see the differences between the PZ, TCZ and Injun Joe, best to google them. I have many books on the Burlington, but can not post photos unless I am the original owner of the photo.
RAY
@RoyBoy posted:Will they have to change the name before sensitive politically correct groups get their knickers in a knot about it?
We should all be glad that someone else will handle that. I'm staying out of it. I just want to take a ride on the restored Zephyr.
I have the Lionel set and it is one of my favorites from both looks and operation. But I have been disappointed that Lionel never made an add-on car for this set or any of the Zephyr sets.
They will need deep pockets or major sponsors for this restoration. Mucho work to be done. However, its good to see it out of the various "junk yards" it has occupied over the last 60 years or so.
Interesting. I had been unaware of this train being in existence.
My American Flyer Zephyr is currently on display at the Chicago History Museum, in their "Modern by Design: Chicago Streamlines America" exhibit. It is at the entrance to the exhibit, on the right, below the TV.
The reason my train is on exhibit, is the original engraving on the power car.
NWL
Ok NWL, Now you need to tell us the whole story as you can't just leave us hanging trying to figure it out. I suspect it's an interesting one.
Thanks!
@Nation Wide Lines posted:Interesting. I had been unaware of this train being in existence.
My American Flyer Zephyr is currently on display at the Chicago History Museum, in their "Modern by Design: Chicago Streamlines America" exhibit. It is at the entrance to the exhibit, on the right, below the TV.
The reason my train is on exhibit, is the original engraving on the power car.
NWL
Any idea on how one could "pocket" the large cardboard photo of the front of the PZ? My pockets are too small to sneak it out. Maybe raid the Museum at night? So if it is gone, just don't tell anyone it was me!
That sure would make a good auction item for the museum when they are done with the display.
Ray
@Ray of sunshine posted:Any idea on how one could "pocket" the large cardboard photo of the front of the PZ? My pockets are too small to sneak it out. Maybe raid the Museum at night? So if it is gone, just don't tell anyone it was me!
That sure would make a good auction item for the museum when they are done with the display.
Ray
That large 3-dimensional front of the Zephyr has a nice wooden frame, so it is not an easy item to move. I considered asking about it, but realized, I had no place to put it.
@Ray of sunshine posted:Any idea on how one could "pocket" the large cardboard photo of the front of the PZ? My pockets are too small to sneak it out. Maybe raid the Museum at night? So if it is gone, just don't tell anyone it was me!
That sure would make a good auction item for the museum when they are done with the display.
Ray
Ray, you have deep pockets, right? 
@Allegheny posted:Ok NWL, Now you need to tell us the whole story as you can't just leave us hanging trying to figure it out. I suspect it's an interesting one.
Thanks!
As for the engraving, per an article about Si Chaplin, the engineer at American Flyer who designed their model, American Flyer was working quite closely with CB&Q on their model of the Zephyr and introduced their model right about the time of the real Zephyr making its first run. Therefore, it appears that American Flyer had this piece engraved and presented it to Mr. Ralph Budd, president of the CB&Q.
I wish I could add to the story. I happened to catch my Zephyr model on ebay. From what I can determine, it was in a Chicago area collection until the early 1990s (as the collector put a tag with his name on the item and he passed in the early 1990s), was sold through an auction house out east, and then disappeared until about 5 years ago, when it came up on ebay and I purchased it.
When the museum was planning the exhibit, they reached out to a local collector, who let them know I had this model and the museum specifically wanted my engraved item for the exhibit. The exhibit is heavy into the Zephyr at the entrance, but later delves into all sorts of streamline designed items.
NWL
NWL,
Thank you for filling us in. It was interesting to learn about its history and how you came to acquire it. Fortunately it was kept in great shape and hadn't been abused.
The Becky Thatcher baggage car is on the move. She is on Hwy 39 headed to Trego Wisconsin.
Here is the latest update on the Mark Twain Zephyr restoration - dated December 13, 2020
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwHJvbOtcb8
Enjoy!
Does anyone know what the latest is on this restoration?
The website hasn't been updated since January of this year?
.
@Allegheny posted:Does anyone know what the latest is on this restoration?
The website hasn't been updated since January of this year?
.
May 2022. Scroll about halfway down. Supply chain issues have slowed the restoration.
Rusty
It has been sometime since The Wisconsin Great Northern Railroad put an update out on the restoration of the Mark Twain Zephyr.
Earlier in the year they were claiming supply chain issues with getting leaf springs.
Is this still the case and what is going on with the placement of a diesel engine into Injun Joe?
These guys were giving updates practically every Sunday and then they simply stopped cold turkey.
It would be nice if they were to put an update out given it has been many months since their last video update.
They will probably have to change the name. Someone is sure to object in this modern world where it seems like everyone is offended about something.
@RoyBoy posted:They will probably have to change the name. Someone is sure to object in this modern world where it seems like everyone is offended about something.
Now we know the REAL reason Samuel Clemens used the pseudonym Mark Twain. He didn't want his descendants to get sued after he was gone. LOL
@Ray of sunshine posted:If you are a member of the BRHS, go to the BRHS Web page and sign in as a member. Go to "BRHS Clinic Videos". The last posting is an hour-long presentation and up date by the owner, Greg Veeland.It is worth while to see his presentation and to get an update on the MTZ.Bottom line they are short handed with help, have been busy running diner trains, and there is a delay in getting some of the hardware they need. They thinnk they will get back to working on the MTZ this fall.Ray BedardSan Jose
Ray
Thank you for the update. I am not a member of the Burlington Route Historical Society thus I will not be able to view the video.
The owner could have someone from his staff post a brief video explaining the current status of the restoration on their website.
Just very surprising to me that they would simply stop keeping the interest level up on their #1 project.
Since they haven't done anything in awhile due to supply chain issues, there's nothing to report.
An occasional brief update is a good policy in an area like restorations, so many have failed and simply dropped out of sight. Also if a lack of volunteers is part of the problem you need to keep putting the word out.
I worked for a volunteer group in my town for over 20 years. I was aware of them for over a year before I finally signed up--four flyers later.
The folks restoring the Mark Twain Zephyr aren’t a museum - they’re running a for-profit railroad and aren’t depending on volunteers to do their restoration and maintenance work. When some progress is made I’m sure the owners will catch the public up on what’s been accomplished.
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