Buying unused old PS2 engines

H1000,
I was given some old Proto 1 sound engines that predate anything PS2 in age.
They sat in the box unused till this year before seeing the rails for a brief test run.
Each unit spooled right up in the sound category. Gears needed a little lubrication/TLC of course but had zero issues with the sound.

I personally wouldn't sweat it too much.

i would not be afraid to buy a new old engine in sealed box BUT I WULD NOT POWER UP THE ENGINE UNTIL I REPLACED THEBATTERY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! OTHERWISE you can damage the electronics! i would not worry about buying with battery be in the rngine all that time the worst thing that could happen you might have to replace the bsattttery connector do to corrosion IF the battery has leaked out onto the connector; i would buy the engine in a NY second ok . hope this releves your mind ! good luck with your decision.

Alan

p.s. let us know how you make out on thr forum!! 

H1000 posted:

I am looking into purchasing an MTH ready to run set from 2003 that has never been on the rails. It is so unused that the box is still sealed in the original plastic wrap.

My worries about this is the battery in the locomotive.  I am sure it will need a new one, but can leaving the battery in an engine for over a decade damage the electronics? The current owner doesn't want to break the seal to test or allow inspection as he feels this will take away from the "Mint" condition of the set.

Thoughts & opinions?

 

Thanks!
H1000

If he's so worried about the set being in "mint" condition, it sounds like he thinks it must be a "valuable collectible" and will expect it to bring a much higher price than it is worth. Good luck!

Bill in FtL

I personally wouldn't buy anything with the 5V board unless it's REALLY cheap.  When I buy one of those, I assume I'll have to replace the board set.  The 3V board is much more robust and shouldn't be an issue.  I would replace the battery of anything that's over ten years old before I ran it on principle.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

I personally wouldn't buy anything with the 5V board unless it's REALLY cheap.  When I buy one of those, I assume I'll have to replace the board set.  The 3V board is much more robust and shouldn't be an issue.  I would replace the battery of anything that's over ten years old before I ran it on principle.

Absolutely... 5 volt boards seemed to have a hidden expiration date on them.. similar to K-line motor driver boards. Stay clear.

Most of my MTH engines are PS 2 (5-volt). Some I run regularly and keep them charged. They're favorites and have been running for years. I do have some that haven't been run for quite some time. 5 plus years. Is the recommendation to replace those batteries rather than recharge them on a charging track? If so, what battery is a good replacement and where should I purchase them?

Thanks!

I have bought many old MTH engines with both 5 and 3 volt boards.  I replace the battery with a BCR before powering them up.  I haven't had any problems with them.  Just put in a new battery or a BCR in it before you run it and you should be OK.  A BCR is a battery component replacement.  

NH Joe

Thanks for the feedback! I guess my main concern was an old battery leaking and causing significant damage to the components. I have many older PS2 5v engines that have never given me any problems (knock on wood) but have always maintained the battery condition and replaced them regularly. 

This is a licensed R-T-R set which will most likely never be remade which is why he never opened it. I may even leave it in the plastic wrap after I buy it.... Nah, I want to see at least power up  and make a couple trip around the layout!

H1000

I will fall inline with John.  I recently had a NIB MTH D&H Alco PA that had never seen power.  It was a 5 volt board.  I installed a new MTH green battery, checked all plugs and put power to the locomotive.  The board made a crackle sound and died.   The test of time has these boards going south often.  Like John stated, the 3 volt board is a much better board.  I still have a few 5 volt boards running on my layout.  As they die (they do) I replace them with 3 volt boards.  Today we have the option of using the PS-3/2 board to replace the 5 volt boards. 

While at the recent MTH school, someone asked the MTH stand on using a BCR and the answer was the stand MTH takes is Neutral.  I have no bad words to say about them (BCR) but I run a battery in every locomotive.

Guys/gals,  would you feel safe with a battery in your car that is over 5 years old?  

This post has left me quite concerned since I have quite a few, possibly 20+, early 5 volt PS2 engines.

So is the assumption every 5 volt board will fail? Do you just wait for it to fail and replace it, or if you wait, will there be the possibility of greater damage elsewhere? Even though mentioned by Marty, is there less chance of failure if the battery is changed? Would a fully charged battery make any difference? 

I apologize for my ignorance, but I am no repair expert and when it comes to the electronics, I seek someone more qualified. In the past I have had gunrunnerjohn & George (GGG) do my upgrades and repairs.  

We're talking probabilities here.  It's more probable that a 5V board will fail than a 3V board, probably for several reasons.

It seems the 5V boards were running closer to the maximums as far as power is concerned.  Many times one or more diodes fail inside the board sandwich, and since they are not accessible, it's not possible to attempt a repair.

5V boards consume more power and run hotter than 3V boards, thus shortening the MTBF of many components.

The 5V boards are older, and the electrolytic caps, which are a significant failure possibility, are older.

I've personally seen that the 330uf cap of the WinCap brand fails more often than others on the board.  It's my contention that these may be some of the defective capacitors that were shipped around 2000-2002 from various Taiwanese makers.  These were used in various products for a significant amount of time after manufacture, so failures may have extended much later.  See Capacitor Plague for more information.

All electrolytic caps will eventually fail, their failure rate is based on the initial specification and the operating temperature.  The operating temperature inside many locomotives if fairly high, resulting in a shorter lifespan. 

Even unused electrolytic caps can dry out.  Since a number of failures are on the very first power-up of a locomotive long stored away, it's hard for me to blame heat for the failures, they don't get a chance to get hot.  Most semiconductors will last longer than we will when stored in normal temperatures.  So, it seems more logical to me that a defective cap that could have dried out in storage would be more likely to fail than a semiconductor that should have a practically infinite shelf life.

UPDATE:

Well I purchased the set last night and it was nice to catch a whiff of that new train smell from 2003. I remove the old battery which looked okay and installed a new 8.4v NiMH battery (Energizer). I put it on the track, added it to the remote without any issues and it ran great.

I have quite few PS2 engine with half being the older 5v version and really haven't had any problems with any of them (knock a little harder on wood). Again, my main worry was the battery leaking and causing component damage. 

As with any electronics, ALL of these trains have shelf life. Some are longer than others but rest assured the electronics will some day fail you as there is no way to design them to last forever.  This is where the good ol' postwar stuff is nice, leave it in the box for 50 years with no worries.... but I like my bells and whistles!

H1000

I don't totally shy away from 5V stuff, but I do discount it in my mind as I expect that sooner rather than later I'll have to replace the boards.  I have a number of them, but several have died of no apparent reason.  I have had much better luck with the 3V boards.

Just run them until they fail.  I have seen plenty run with years of abuse and use and still running, others fail right out of the box.  G

The past few replies leave me with "kay sarah sarah". I own them, don't plan to sell them. When they go they go, I guess they eventually will. I can't image I'll have 20 dead engines in a day, or will I?

Back to my original question, more or less, is there anything I should do to at least decrease the chances of the inevitable? New battery before starting up on the track, add fully charged battery, swap out the board to avoid greater damage (if that is a possibility), etc, etc.

Since it looks like a board will need to be changed, what does a replacement board cost if I did it myself or is that only for those electronically inclined?

Thanks again,

Joe

I only use the 8.4 volt MTH green battery.  The test of time has shown that to be a big winner.  I have seen guys brag about the great deal they get on buying batteries from tool warehouses and other places.  Guys/Gals, you have all heard the old saying about how you only get what you pay for.  If it is worth it to you to put a 5 volt board in harms way with a cheapo battery, that is your call.  

Some years back, I met George Galyo aka GGG.   George has the knowledge and equipment to rebuild MTH boards.  Being a repair guy, I saved every bad board in the event myself or others may need a part from them.  I started sending George bad boards and getting them back repaired.  Mostly 3 volt boards with some 5 volt.  I would pull an engine from my layout that was a keeper with a 5 volt board and install a rebuilt 3 volt board from George.  My fleet only has a few 5 volt boards left.  I have many engines.  By doing this, I started building up a supply of good 5 volt boards.  BTW, I have not had any trouble at all from any rebuilt boards George has done for me.

Today, we have another option.  The PS-32 board.  It is very high on my list.  I have many of them roaming around on my layout.  You can replace any 5 volt board or 3 volt board with them.  

What is the difference between the MTH boards? PS3/2 and PS 2 3 volt? Can you down load the same info that you can in the PS 2 3 volt board? 

Thanks Marty. I'll rest easier now, and before I crank up some of those older engines, I'll start with replacing the battery with what you recommended.

Joe

And thanks George. Not going to worry. Like I said, I have a bunch to choose from and plenty of favorites. Fix them when I need to.

Joe

Since I know little about all this electronics, by replacing these 5v boards, does that still give you all the sounds etc. as you had originally?

You have to find the sound file you want and download it into the 3 volt board.   I keep all the 5 volt boards that are junk (can not be fixed) and pull the connectors off (black) and install them on the 3 volt boards.  Put in a 4 ohm speaker, battery,  and charging port and be done with it.  For a while, MTH sold the 3 volt boards with the 5 volt connectors on them.   With the PS-32 boards we do not need to mess with the charging port or battery.  I have several 5 volt boards  in my parts stock but will not sell them.  They are for an emergency only.  They are like time bombs, you will never know when they are going to explode.

Marty with the PS 32 can you download same info as the 3 volt board or is it you can only download 5 volt info, like the old board? That's what I meant, sorry  Thanks again, Joe

Marty Fitzhenry posted:

I have several 5 volt boards  in my parts stock but will not sell them.  They are for an emergency only.  They are like time bombs, you will never know when they are going to explode.

Funny thing, I have three of them in my parts box as well, I'm keeping them for when I have an issue.  I've replaced the suspect capacitor on all of mine and tested them for an extended period, now they just sit in waiting for one of my existing boards to croak.

shurlock1 posted:

Marty with the PS 32 can you download same info as the 3 volt board or is it you can only download 5 volt info, like the old board? That's what I meant, sorry  Thanks again, Joe

The PS32 takes 3V files, you can't load 5V files into it.  You can typically get MTH to convert a 5V file to 3V, I've done that a couple of times for stuff that doesn't have a 3V file.

Many of the 5V files have already been upgraded.    Go to the MTH site and hit the service tab then go to sound files.  Put in your 5 V engine number and see if an upgraded file is available.

Is it true that 5volt boards had or has parts that will fail over time as marty eluded too. most recomend upgrading to ps2 3 volt or staying away from the 5 volt boards altogether is that correct when buying used mth?

I'll buy a 5V unit, but I mentally discount it about $100 because I expect it's a lot more likely that I'll need a board.  As previously stated, some will run for many years, but others will simply die for no apparent reason.   Typically, when a 3V board dies, there is a reason other than the phase of the moon.

Well put John.   

I am confused . When you say 5V are you talking about locos that use 8.4 v rechargeable?  These units do not have charging ports on my units and the 3v has external ports.  What is the cost of a PS 3/2 board and is it the same board used for converting PS1  to PS3.

Thanks

Art,

When you say 5V are you talking about locos that use 8.4 v rechargeable?

Yes.

These units do not have charging ports on my units and the 3v has external ports.

Early PS2 5 volt engines lack charging ports. Later 5 volt and all 3 volt PS2 engines have charging ports.

What is the cost of a PS 3/2 board 

The PS32 board retails for approx. $220.

is it the same board used for converting PS1  to PS3.

Yes, it is.

This and a whole lot more is all in “The DCS Companion 3rd Edition!" This book is available from many fine OGR advertisers and forum sponsors, or as an eBook or a printed book at OGR’s web store!

John,

When you upgraded my PS-1 board to a PS-2 board, what did you use?  A 3 volt or 5 volt?

Any upgrades would be done with a 3V board set, or nowadays, the PS32 board set.  The only 5V boards I have in my parts box are reserved to drop into my 5V locomotives if a board croaks.  I replace any electrolytic caps I can reach on the 5V boards to minimize the likelihood of them dying when I power them up.

That's awesome , thanks!!