CAB-1L & Base-1L problems

Changing the channel is easy, but if two of your locomotives work properly everywhere on the layout and others don't, I can't see this being a remote to base communication issue, it sounds more like track signal.  I'd be checking the grounding of the power adapter to the wall outlet, maybe something happened to the grounding in your house?

Firstly no way that’s a Cab-1L if it’s 15 years old. The original Cab-2 is barely that old. Easy way to tell the difference between then the original Cab-1 and Cab-1L is the original is grey plastic and has a external antenna the new Cab-1L is Blue plastic and no external antenna.

No matter witch one you have easy way to know of the base is getting commands from the remote is anytime a command is sent the red light on the base should blink.

Thanks for your suggestion John.  It was a grounding problem.

I love the easy solutions.

@zhubl posted:

Firstly no way that’s a Cab-1L if it’s 15 years old. The original Cab-2 is barely that old. Easy way to tell the difference between then the original Cab-1 and Cab-1L is the original is grey plastic and has a external antenna the new Cab-1L is Blue plastic and no external antenna.

Zachariah, you didn't read the whole first post!

@Louis Jasper Jr posted:

I had a CAB-1 & BASE-1 that I used for running 5 trains. I had not operated them since mid 2020. Now they are not moving properly and stop with no commands from the remote so I thought that the remote was not working properly since it is at least 15 + years old. I upgraded the base and remote to 1L.

Well that’s what I get I obviously missed that.
I also love easy solutions to the contrary I seem to try to find a way to make it more complicated

Louis...you are new to the forum so I made sure that this thread did not get deleted by the software because it was placed in the wrong category.  It has been moved.  Please take time to become familiar with our categories.

Thanks!

I do have the Cab 1-L and base 1-L. The 15 years is wrong and I guess about 5 years. On my testing layout with the fast track that I previously explained, I put on my UP diesel that also takes commands and would not run continuously on the old track layout. Today it ran normal on the oval shaped new track layout. However, the NY Central still only runs normal in one direction. I believe what gunrunnerJohn said is true. On my old track layout, the switches have an insulator which reduces the speed of the engines and maybe they cause signal problems?  The track voltage that I measured today is 18.6 volts. I am using alligator clips to give the track power because it is only temporary and I do not have the fast track used to attach the wiring.

Tomorrow, I will clean the track and the NY Central engine track contact to determine if it will run normal in both directions. Also, if I solve this problem, I will duplicate the settings on the old track and use the same power outlet. Any suggestions are appreciated.

You might have a two-problems problem.

The first might be bad connections between sections of track, and the second might be TMCC signal integrity.

Edit: I am only addressing the first problem below!

Having a caboose with an old school incandescent light bulb can help; it draws a bit of current, and it doesn't move when power is on. Roll the caboose around the loop and look for it dimming, and maybe check the track voltage near the caboose. If there is a bad joint, you should see a reduction in voltage.

Another trick I have learned, mostly from slot cars, is take apart the track at the point farthest away from where power is attached, and make sure the track has power on the very ends. Why? Say you have one bad connection. The conductors (things that carry electrical current) coming from the other side of the bad joint is masking the problem. Artificially creating another open circuit exposes that bad joint. Also do the caboose voltage drop trick.

Keep in mind that everything besides superconductors have resistance, so you should get a slight voltage drop down each piece of track, across each joint (with electric current flowing thru it, that's your lighted caboose).

Hmmm, we should have a "resistor cars", big ol power resistor on a rail car, drawing maybe 5A at 18V, then maybe some cheapo made-in-China digital AC voltmeter reading what the voltage is.

Thanks Michael, I like the caboose idea and will try it. I do have 2 track power connections on the old track platform with one by the powerhouse and the 2nd furthermost away. When I had the cab 1 & base 1, all 5 trains worked using my 2 -arm bandit that I purchased in the early 1950s to power the track. I did not operate the trains for over a year during the Covid 19 . Then I had the problem with 3 of my trains so I upgraded to the Cab 1-L, base 1-L & powerhouse.  First, I will try to get NY Central to move normal in both directions. Then I will try to get the trains to operate on my old track platform.

Alan Arnold told me that I was on the wrong category when I used O-gauge Lionel. What is the correct category?

Alan already moved you to the correct category, "Lionel TMCC, Legacy and ERR."  Your question was about a Lionel command control system.

Chuck

@illinoiscentral posted:

You might have a two-problems problem.

The first might be bad connections between sections of track, and the second might be TMCC signal integrity.

Edit: I am only addressing the first problem below!

Having a caboose with an old school incandescent light bulb can help; it draws a bit of current, and it doesn't move when power is on. Roll the caboose around the loop and look for it dimming, and maybe check the track voltage near the caboose. If there is a bad joint, you should see a reduction in voltage.

Another trick I have learned, mostly from slot cars, is take apart the track at the point farthest away from where power is attached, and make sure the track has power on the very ends. Why? Say you have one bad connection. The conductors (things that carry electrical current) coming from the other side of the bad joint is masking the problem. Artificially creating another open circuit exposes that bad joint. Also do the caboose voltage drop trick.

Keep in mind that everything besides superconductors have resistance, so you should get a slight voltage drop down each piece of track, across each joint (with electric current flowing thru it, that's your lighted caboose).

Hmmm, we should have a "resistor cars", big ol power resistor on a rail car, drawing maybe 5A at 18V, then maybe some cheapo made-in-China digital AC voltmeter reading what the voltage is.

Pretty close .......

@illinoiscentral posted:

Hmmm, we should have a "resistor cars", big ol power resistor on a rail car, drawing maybe 5A at 18V, then maybe some cheapo made-in-China digital AC voltmeter reading what the voltage is.

I could add a resistor to my car, but I think I'd have to beef up the pickup wiring for a 5A load!  Also, the collectors probably would be under stress at five amps.

I'd probably go for more like 2 amps, plenty to trigger variances due to poor track joints, and a lot easier to manage the current demands.

How about adding sound to the resistor car because with my luck the problem will be in my tunnel?

@Louis Jasper Jr posted:

How about adding sound to the resistor car because with my luck the problem will be in my tunnel?

The NJ-HR club has a signal strength engine they run around to test the Legacy signal, it has a BT meter that transmits to a smartphone so they can monitor it anywhere it goes, including the tunnels.

What may be the reason that my NY Central 125 runs normal in one direction but starts and stops in the other direction when increasing the speed and using boost?

Actually, signal issues normally don't affect direction, hard to believe that's the issue.  Your issue sounds more like a mechanical issue.  One cause of that particular symptom is excessive end play in the motor armature for Odyssey cruise control, you lose the cruise function when the flywheel lifts away from the sensor.

Finally reached a Lionel support agent that was very helpful and I was told that it is the e-unit that is going bad. Gunrunnerjohn is right and I am thankful for his advise. The e-unit (strange name) controls the motor and will cost  from $30 to $60 to buy one. I need to give the agent the engine number to get the correct price. I decided to make layout changes to my platform that includes 3-rail and fast tracks. Hope that I can reduce voltage losses to the track connections and improve signal strength.

I am 85 years old and I do not want to spend a lot of time with the trains doing work that is no longer fun. Also getting parts such as circuit boards from China is not desirable to me and I hope Lionel is establishing new sources. Sorry to those that may disagree with this.

You're not alone in wishing there were an alternate source for PCB's, preferably in the US.  However, reality bites, and sourcing PCB's in the us is simply price prohibitive for anyone but the government that has our money to burn.

I have an o-gauge PA 411 Switcher that is a run-away (takes off like a bat out of ****) when I turn on the 180 watt power house. I can stop the run-away by placing my hand over its top to block the radio signal. It works but does nor respond to the cab and power base 1L. I was told to make sure the rails are grounded because they serve as an antenna. They look good. I assume it must be a circuit board. Need help!

@Louis Jasper Jr posted:

I have an o-gauge PA 411 Switcher that is a run-away (takes off like a bat out of ****) when I turn on the 180 watt power house. I can stop the run-away by placing my hand over its top to block the radio signal. It works but does nor respond to the cab and power base 1L. I was told to make sure the rails are grounded because they serve as an antenna. They look good. I assume it must be a circuit board. Need help!

NOOOOO!  DO NOT GROUND THE RAILS! The outside rail(s) connect to the command base TMCC connection, but most assuredly do NOT get grounded!  The "ground" comes into play with the 3rd prong of the command base power connection to the wall outlet.  However, that house ground must NOT be connected to the tracks!

@Louis Jasper Jr posted:

I have an o-gauge PA 411 Switcher that is a run-away (takes off like a bat out of ****) when I turn on the 180 watt power house. I can stop the run-away by placing my hand over its top to block the radio signal. It works but does nor respond to the cab and power base 1L. I was told to make sure the rails are grounded because they serve as an antenna.

Louis,

Putting your hand over the top doesn't block the radio signal, it actually improves it.  Your switcher is running uncontrolled before that because it's not receiving enough radio signal.  Your hand helps by better conducting the in the air near-by signal to the locomotive.

John has provided a good hint.  Check two things:

1. The antenna wire from the base should connect directly to the outside rail on your layout at some point around the layout.   At the same time make sure that the outside rail electrical connections between the track segments around the layout are all good (tight-fitting).
2. Ensure that the power brick for the base is plugged into a properly-grounded outlet.  You may need an electrician to confirm this.  There's a work-around involving adding a long 3-Wire extension cord between the brick and the wall outlet, and routing the cord around the perimeter of your layout.  If you try this use it only temporarily however.  Fixing the outlet if it's not correct is a better way to solve the problem, and to make sure that it's wired safely at the same time.

By the way, in general it's almost always a lost cause to assume there's an electronics problem without verifying so.  Buying and installing new PC boards usually doesn't solve the problem, and ends up costing big money when it's not necessary.

Mike

Mike, I believe that my outlet is fine since I have 3 other engines that work fine. Could the problem be related to the circuit board?

I may end up running the 411 switcher in the conventional mode with the power base1L switch. It is taking me too much time to try and correct problems with signals that may be weak or engine related problems etc. I am not skilled enough and Lionel support usually does not have needed parts.  The train doctors at Brasseur are recommended by Lionel support staff. They are great but only available Sat. and Sun. from 1 to 3 PM eastern time. You guys are also very helpful and I thank you all!

@Louis Jasper Jr posted:

Mike, I believe that my outlet is fine since I have 3 other engines that work fine. Could the problem be related to the circuit board?

All engines are not alike.  Some are msre sensitive than others to this problem.

If you're reasonably certain that the other three are not having any problem, while this one is, then I'd start with the antenna wire inside the engine.  Usually the handrails on steam locomotives act as the receiving antenna.  Inside, under the shell, they have wires connected to them that run to the receiver board (R2LC).

Check this wiring to make sure it's not open (broken), or shorted-circuited to something, like perhaps pinched by the shell when it's installed.  Either would cause this problem.

Only after verifying that this wiring is sound, and the handrails themselves aren't open or shorted, do we finally get to the pc board (R2LC).

The folks at Brasseur are quite good.  They'll be able to handle it if you think that you're getting in over your head.

Mike

Thanks again Mike, I will talk to Brasseur this week and may then check the inside.  Also, last resort is to run it in the conventional mode which I already did.