Can conventional engines be double-headed?

The easy way to find out is to put them on the same loop together but uncoupled and apply power.  If they run at the same speed you can, probably, doubleheader them.  I say probably because, without speed control, speed is going to vary depending on power and load.

Yes but you do need to be careful.  As Dan said how well matched in speed per voltage and also when changing direction.  IF one misses the direction change you could have a problem.  G

Wouldn't they have to be in "locked direction" mode, to prevent either engine from accidental reversals?

Bill in FtL

As a kid I tried to do this with Marx engines, which do an automatic direction change (maybe one and not the other if one loses contact and power for a moment), and that was not successful.   That on push-together, out of the box, tube track.  Even when for a moment they ran in sinc, one wanted to go faster than the other, dragging or ramming the other.  Most will be talking about Lionel with lock-out reverses, but dragging or ramming, and derailments, are still a problem.  Very good trackwork and electrical contact is mandatory.  If I was to attempt that again with other conventional, I would want to set up parallel tracks to test for two engines that ran at very similar speeds.

With MTH DCS and I assume Lionels digital control systems you can double head any two or even more engines. The digital electronics allows it as the feed back loops of the systems controls each engine to make sure one is not pushing or pulling the others. I don't know the limit but DCS has a front engine, rear engine and middle engine option. That seems like three and maybe more can be coupled together to add pulling power or just to look good. I have doubled up DCS diesels and steam DCS engines no problem. All were Proto-3.

LDBennett

I have two scale size, conventional, SD70MACs (the KCC engines delivered by Lionel) that I have on occasionally tried to run together.  They run the same speed as they are same engine, but even when I get them synchronized to run the same direction, eventually one of them will cycle out of sync with the other.  I plan to eventually put the ERR Cruise Commander into both and run them in TMCC.

Jim

Do it all the time with WBB engines. I have seen it done with mixed brands. DANR's suggestion is a good one...

I would say give it a try.  I know with my Post War Lionel locomotives, generally speaking, they don't work well double headed.  One will be faster than the other.  Another thing I tried was running two trains in conventional control on the same loop.  That never turned out well.  That's why I went to total DCS operation.

As pre-teens and teenagers, my brother and I double headed my pre-war 2-6-2 (225?) and his 1945/46  0-6-0 (B-6?) around the Christmas tree layout.  We'd make sure they were going in the same direction by picking the 0-6-0 up to break the electric contact.  I know they didn't run at the same exact speed, but together they would pull a very long train.  John in Lansing, ILL

You can but it is probably NOT a good idea; unless has been suggested earlier, put the two on a loop, uncoupled, and observe if the speed is close to being the same.  If yes, lock the engines into one direction and pull away!  I use dummies--easier.  How many people really need to double--head???  Usually done for appearance sake ONLY.

I have DCS.  I have considered having a set of "helper" engines stationed in my mountain grade to assist a train that really needs it up the hill.  However, most of my single diesel engines will pull trains too long for my passing sidings without much problem--meaning only this one long train could run on the main-line in either direction because no other train could get around it.

Last thought: thank goodness for command control!  You can finally efficiently coordinate the combined power of multiple engines safely!  Conventional????  Many issues less IDENTICAL engines.

Bill Nielsen posted:

Wouldn't they have to be in "locked direction" mode, to prevent either engine from accidental reversals?

Bill in FtL

My WbB scale GG1s do not have direction lockout.  I plan to run power wires between them so they both get the same power to prevent one going good into neutral and not the other.

First step is to see if they run at or close to the same speed as suggested above. If they do you could wire a tether between them so they share ground and center rail. That way as long as either one is getting power they will continue on in the same direction.

Pete

If the engine has DCS it'll have cruise as well. The default setting is cruise on. MTH engines don't like to pulled or pushed around and  will fight back. This can lead to an  over heated circuit board or board failure.

It's also to tell what's exactly going on just be watching them run... I might have second thoughts about double heading.

Hey, this is also why I have numerous "dummy" locomotives.  I typically have two or three locomotives pulling any given train on my layout.  The secret is, only one of the locomotives is powered.  Lionel & MTH make very nice, highly detailed dummy locomotives, you may want to check it out.

I have four conventional Lionel GP-38s that came with various starter sets.  They are by most definitions identical, but for whatever reasons they run at notably different speeds.  Attempts to quadruple-head them over the years always looks great but functions poorly. Then you've got issues where one in the middle will randomly decide to ignore the direction lock out, etc... it's all more trouble than it's worth.

I've had some success running them as two sets of two... faster two together and slower two together.  It's an imperfect science, for sure.

I do it a lot with some of my Postwar engines. I have a bunch of 623, 624 and 6250 switchers that do very well run together with the e-units locked. I've also added a motor to the dummy units in 3 of my PW early Alco sets and tether them to the powered unit and control them with the front e-unit. That combo makes them better pullers than my F3s with their double motor.

Roger

Yes, as long as they travel at pretty much the same speed.  I have 3 MTH PS-1 GP38-2 that all came out at teh same time, just different cab numbers, I have run them together just fine.  They travel at slightly different speeds, but not enough to be an issue.  I also have a MTH RK Drefuss Hudson and Premier PRR T-1, both also PS-1, that run well together and I've double headed a passenger train with them.

Now I have a K-Line GG1, with factory TMCC without cruise, and I bought a RMT GG1 with plans to upgrade them both to ERR TMCC with cruise to double head trains with.  Running both out of the box in conventional the RMT runs way faster than the K-Line one so I can not double head them before doing the upgrade.

Double-header MU lash-ups are a good way to haul longer trains with some of the otherwise not-very-powered conventional postwar locos like Lionel Scouts and FA's. Make sure they run at close to the same speed so they aren't fighting each other, and lock them to run in the same direction. My "Duplex Scout" uses a corridor tender and auxiliary water car.

Some of the late Postwar Lionel FA locos had only single-axle drive. I swap shells around and use two powered units per train. I've put manual reversing switches on my FA's to make independent hostling moves easier.

OK, so maybe I am a bit dumb on exactly how MTH DCS works but it has a mode of operation called "lash up". It is clearly defined in the DCS manual. It allows a head engine, a tail engine and multiple middle engines. All work together with no pushing and pulling between engines. TMCC and other control system may offer the same control (??). I am not familiar with anything but MTH DCS with a TIU and AIU.

This is possible because each engine knows its track speed. The DCS system can adjust all engines to the same speed. That's theoretical but does it do it in reality? I run lash ups all the time and have zero problems.

But in control systems other than DCS or Lionels digital control systems that just respond to the track voltage, it is not a good idea, I would think. If all are the same exact engine then maybe but various engines may have different sized motors that respond differently to the voltage on the track with the result that one is pushing or pulling the other. One of them will see a much greater load than the others and it will over heat trying to adjust the speed of the the others. It may be like trying to pull too many cars.

To answer the original question I would say don't do it with conventional  engines. There will always be an imbalance between engines even of the same model. You may eventually hurt one of the engines. Just use dummies. You would have to have a very big layout or very steep grades (probably traction limited and not power limited) to actually need multiple engines. It is all about the look for us and not adding real power.

In the '50s they were toy trains played with by boys who were on each side of tens years old.  Lionel Toy
Trains were fun, not frustrating.  John

OGaugeGuy,

   I do it all the time!  Just make sure they are in Sync & Compatible Engines.

PCRR/Dave

A Weaver 0-8-0 Masonic Double Header, adds serious power for a long Masonic consist, on the inside 2nd level loop.

I run multiple Williams powered locos together with no problem. Occasionally, they will get out of sync, but throttling down for a few seconds will reset them and they will start running in the same direction again.

I have double and triple headed powered Williams SD-45's. First make sure your engines all run about the same speed around the layout when uncoupled. Another thing I did was to add 2 wire connectors between all 3 engines, one wire for positive and one for negative. The connectors I use I bought at an R/C model hobby shop, 5 amp.

I have run both diesel and steam engines together with DCS command control but not in conventional mode.

Lee Fritz