Can I add more "lighted" cars to my #9900 Burlington Zephyr????Can the 5V board handle it?

First off, the 5V supply isn't powering those bulbs, so that's not a problem.  As for the rear motor getting enough power, that will depend on the integrity of the connectors.  I'd make sure they are clean, and I'd probably consider some Deoxit-D5 or similar contact renewal product on them to enhance the conductivity.  I don't see an issue with any additional load, other than the obvious load of three more cars to pull.

Pardon my ignorance as I'm not familiar with this PS2 configuration.  So using these images pasted together from an MTH manual:

The lead motorized car has power pickups on both trucks and the 5V PS2 electronics.  The in-between passenger cars have NO power pickups.  The observation motorized car has one power pickup.  There are tethers between each car.

The tether looks like more than 2 wires?  If so, in addition to 2 motor wires daisy-chained thru the passenger cars from lead-car to observation-car, what other signals (if any) are on the tether?

Stan, the power for the bulbs obviously has to come through the tether.  However, given that these are incandescent bulbs, there's no way they're running on the 1A 5V power from the PS/2 board.  I "assume" they're connected to track power from the tether, but without having one to look at, that's just speculation, but it's a pretty logical assumption.

GRJ, I hear you.  I realize the PS2-5V boards are long in the tooth, but curious why a PS2 train-set with the "luxury" of a multi-pin tether from end-to-end would not provide constant-brightness command-control lighting.

I understand MTH subway sets where you have command-control of ONLY the motored car's lighting...and the non-motored cars (no tethers) have variable brightness in conventional.  So I'm just curious as to why the tether wasn't taken advantage of to provide constant-brightness lighting as well as command-control of passenger car lighting. 

Now you're delving into why MTH did things the way they did!   I have no idea, but I'll be truly astonished if you find that the power for those lights are anything but directly from track power.  They have a history of doing this with PS/2 stuff, even with the single unit Doodlebug.  Driving those lights from the board would require some fancy footwork, the individual lighting FET wouldn't support even the three units, much less the add-on cars.  I can't imagine any way that they powered the lights from the PS/2 board.

Obviously, without the actual set to see how things are powered, this is speculation on my part, but I believe it's informed speculation based on other things I've seen.

OK.  I'm just venting about the evolution of command-control of lighted passenger consists.  That is, you spend $$$ on a fancy-dancy command-control engine where you can control the engine lighting but the passenger cars are lighted up even when engine is shutdown!

Given the tether, MTH could have implemented something akin to the slave-diesel configuration to send lighting info down the daisy-chained tether so that the passenger car lighting would follow the engine's interior lights.  OK, this would have added a dollar of components to each passenger car (bridge, capacitor, transistor).  I suppose this would/could be a "fun" topic to explore in the Electrical sub-forum.  I can even imagine a low-cost circuit that would send a wireless (no tether) on/off signal from an engine to your Hennings LED lighting boards so that the passenger cars would turn on/off whenever you command-control the engine's interior light (or cab light, or whatever light).  Again, another idea for Electrical forum.

So back to the OP's question.  I second your notion of carefully managing the integrity of the inter-connections.  As you add more connections you add electrical resistance.  The result is the observation car's motor will receive less voltage than the lead car's motor.  This means the observation car's motor will spin slightly slower.  Since the consist must run at the same speed, the practical effect is the wheels of one or both of the motorized cars will slip/skid.  This reduces electrical efficiency but nothing untoward or damaging.

You won't get any argument from me about controlling the passenger car lighting.  I'm seriously considering tinkering around with one set of cars to do command control of the lighting.  I suspect I'd be doing it with TMCC however as I have more options for interfacing cheap controls.

I don't know of any passenger cars with full command control of the lighting, at least none from the factory.  I have locomotives that I can individually switch all sorts of stuff on and off, but the passenger cars just stay lit.   However, I'll bet with a handful of cheap eBay parts, they could be brought under control, especially if they're LED lights and don't need much power switching.

*** off topic alert ***

I needed a remote doorbell so I could hear it in the basement.  I used one of the tiny transmitter boards powered from the doorbell itself and the matching relay module to switch a $3 eBay 12V doorbell.  A 12V wallwart from my junkbox completed the picture, job done.  Similar technology would probably work for passenger cars for a few bucks a car.

Hello!! Thanks to both of you guys so much for your advice.I also have asked a couple friends of mine about the multiple car idea,and both of them also said "I don't think it will do any damage to the board" also..... I'm about to text a few other people this morning and find out for sure,before I actually put the cars on the rails and power it up. 

I thought adding the extra cars might cut the power some to the rear motor in the OBS car,hence my post.I just did not want any "MAGIC SMOKE",which unfortunately I have seen my fair share of!!!!!!!

AHHH!!HA!!!!HA!!!HA!!!!!

Anyone else that would care to "chime with your dime"on this topic this morning,you are most welcome,The more minds the better.

We all really never stop learning and "modifying" things to do the features that MTH and Lionel left out.

I"m as full of ideas as I am of S@!T,and the most gratifying part of that is,I'M PROUD OF IT!!!! 

Alright!!!! Once in awhile, if you are persistent,YOU STILL CAN WIN!!!!!

 I RAN the Zephyr consist yesterday for about 2 solid hours with NO ADDITIONAL problems at all from the Additional cars!!!!!

So the train had 6 units(including the engine),and it ran superb at slow speeds,medium speed and PINNED at 120smph!!!on "088" Ross Track .The way that smoke comes out of the stack in 4 separate plumes is too cool!!!

That motor in the observation is DESIGNED to PUSH harder,the more load that is put in front on it.

At least that is what I was told by a well known MTH tech offline yesterday.  He gave me the green light to hook it all together and run the daylights out of it!!!! 

Looks like you could add as many cars as you can afford to purchase,(within reason)and I'm talking about the bigger cars in the set, which I will now have to get new name plates,customized, ,so it does not seem redundant. 

But that is the least of my worries, now that I know you can string em' together,and the rear motor will compensate by itself to push harder,and then adjust again if you run a 3 car consist, as the original Zephyr did,before gaining popularity and adding additional cars to accomadate the demand for a seat on it.!!!  

 I never knew MTH made a motor setup like this,where it puts more power out if there is a bigger load to push!!!But then again,I've only been into MTH for 3 years now,it really looks like I missed the party 15-20 years ago.

A POSTWAR holdout.I did not want those fancy new expensive Korean trains,but now on the secondary and 3rd time being sold,I can finally afford to buy a couple here and there.And I'm so hooked I have completely forgot about that Lionel train Company

Thanks everyone for your help.I ran it again today for a couple hours solid,and NO MAGIC SMOKE!!!!(so far!!!)   AH-ha-ha-ha -ha!!!!!!!!  

I was able to put this all together for under $250.00,it looked bad when the first board died.

The engine would only run in conventional  when I got it anyway.As I bought the engine separate,then added 2 cars,now I've added 3 more cars,a set box AND a new old stock chassis for the engine for $70.00!!

 I was able to get a new board and have it installed in exchange for some of the Restoration work I  do. After much trial and mostly error,I have stumbled upon methods that produce superior results!!

Someone also had kidnapped the Engineer guys ,so I stupid glued a Gang car guy in there.Now,with the NOS chassis,the Union guys have returned,and the gang car guy can collect his pension and Social Security check!!!!   

Have a Blessed Day everybody!!And don't forget to VOTE on Wednesday,the future of our country is truly at stake.---Kenny Baughman

kennyb posted:

 I never knew MTH made a motor setup like this,where it puts more power out if there is a bigger load to push!!!But then again,I've only been into MTH for 3 years now,it really looks like I missed the party 15-20 years ago.

I never heard of that either, so I'd certainly like to know why says that.

kennyb posted:

...

That motor in the observation is DESIGNED to PUSH harder,the more load that is put in front on it.

At least that is what I was told by a well known MTH tech offline yesterday.  He gave me the green light to hook it all together and run the daylights out of it!!!! 

That's a new one to me also.  Could you ask the tech to post details here?  Inquiring minds want to know! 

That is, I thought the motor configuration was like a standard MTH twin-motor diesel.  In other words, both motors are identical...and the two motor wires from the PS2 board simply drive the two motors in parallel. 

They do G

gunrunnerjohn posted:

kennyb posted:

 I never knew MTH made a motor setup like this,where it puts more power out if there is a bigger load to push!!!But then again,I've only been into MTH for 3 years now,it really looks like I missed the party 15-20 years ago.

I never heard of that either, so I'd certainly like to know why says that.

Isn't that "cruise control"?

---PCJ

RailRide posted:

Isn't that "cruise control"?

---PCJ

Nope.  Cruise control controls the speed of ONE motor, that being in the locomotive.  The trailing motor just gets the same voltage as the lead motor.  I've never seen or heard of any Lionel or MTH locomotive that had speed sensing on all the motors, and I'm sure this unit isn't the first one in captivity.

Hence our interesting in finding out what the person that made that statement was talking about.

I think "also pushes harder" is likely what was meant.

Reversing a motor's leads for a push/pull contest might tell you. I think watching for the rear to move first vs front would be another possibility. Or maybe the processor looks at and adusts for the rear motor first? I guess we  wouldn't notice that delay anyhow. 

 Seeing how pushing is less stable than pulling on most trains, if not all, I can't see a benefit in the rear "leading" movement.

The processor has no individual control of the motors, both are wired in parallel in every MTH locomotive I've ever worked on.  I think this was just a misstatement or a misunderstanding at some point in the conversation.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

You won't get any argument from me about controlling the passenger car lighting.  I'm seriously considering tinkering around with one set of cars to do command control of the lighting.  I suspect I'd be doing it with TMCC however as I have more options for interfacing cheap controls.

I don't know of any passenger cars with full command control of the lighting, at least none from the factory.  I have locomotives that I can individually switch all sorts of stuff on and off, but the passenger cars just stay lit.   However, I'll bet with a handful of cheap eBay parts, they could be brought under control, especially if they're LED lights and don't need much power switching.

*** off topic alert ***

I needed a remote doorbell so I could hear it in the basement.  I used one of the tiny transmitter boards powered from the doorbell itself and the matching relay module to switch a $3 eBay 12V doorbell.  A 12V wallwart from my junkbox completed the picture, job done.  Similar technology would probably work for passenger cars for a few bucks a car.

Be sure to let me know when you get started on this!  I'd have to dig it up, but I think it was here on OGR that I described how to use one of those 99-cent eBay RF transmitter modules to send a wireless signal from a PS2 subway engine to the other end car (no tethers).  The application is to flip the directional lighting when the subway goes in reverse (command or conventional control).  The idea was to use the "power" from the reverse/tail light of the engine to power up the RF transmitter module.  

I may have missed that Stan, but that's the idea I had in mind.  the little transmitter module works from 3V to 12V, so it's pretty easy with a couple of components to power it from any light, PS/2 or TMCC.  For a light, I could use one of the small receivers, no need for a relay for one LED light.

I found this thread to which it appears you were a fellow co-conspirator.  

Anyway, I couldn't find the original OGR thread so it might have been lost when OGR changed over to the new forum host.  In any case, the issue with the eBay $1-2 module solution is the RF signal is constantly transmitting whenever the backup light is "on".  The low-cost modules use either 315 or 433 MHz.  This limits the number of engines that can be operating at any given time.  If you were to design/sell a Hennings type product, I'd think (just my opinion) you'd need to offer a solution that could handle a dozen (or more) engines at any given time.  If using the 99 cent RF modules, this means pulsing the modules on/off in some random pattern with some kind of addressing so that the directional info makes it thru from the engine to the  paired/corresponding trailing car.  Or, I suppose you could use a more expensive Wi-Fi module where multiple talkers is supported.  All this gets awfully geeky.  But... I think it would be a contribution to the hobby to provide on/off and directional lighting for Zephyrs, subway, and similar consists for a few dollars. 

I'm not sure I want to go that far, but I may have a limited solution anyway.  This is a learning code transmitter and receiver, it appears it's could provide either a toggle or a steady state signal.  It's a four channel device and it has a mode where one channel latches until another channel is triggered, that sounds like just what we'd need.  The only thing that would have to happen is for a small circuit to send a pulse when the backup light comes on or off.  If we're talking about a diesel or electric, the directional lighting can provide the pulse to two channels, one for on, and one for off.  The really cool thing is, if you're talking about PS/2, you could tie into one of the seldom used functions like strobe light and have it do a function at the other end as well.

I haven't experimented to see exactly how the transmission works, but it sounds like the modes other than just tracking the transmitter output data would only transmit when the status changes.

The receiver and transmitter are each 99 cents, so they're not out of reach.

ebay: 222942841567, Mini Wireless 433Mhz RF Remote Control 1527 Learning Code Transmitter Module

Size: 1.8×1.8cm/0.71×0.71in

eBay: 142715775422, 433mhz Wireless RF Receiver 1527 Learning Code Decoder Module For Remote Control

Size: 28×12.3mm/1.10×0.48in

If the auction search doesn't work, the description should.

For convenience, I've attached the captured descriptions.

433Mhz RF Remote Control 1527 Learning Code Reciever.pdf

433Mhz RF Remote Control 1527 Learning Code Transmitter.pdf

gunrunnerjohn posted:

The processor has no individual control of the motors, both are wired in parallel in every MTH locomotive I've ever worked on.  I think this was just a misstatement or a misunderstanding at some point in the conversation.

I figured as much after GGG; my "also pushes harder" just poorly implied it.