I recently got a NOS MTH 10-3010-0 "Tin Plate Traditions" repro of the Lionel 250e Hiawatha set. While it seems pretty close to the original, it barely has enough power to pull itself. I've replace the brushes, cleaned everything, but it just doesn't seem to have the power to do the Hiawatha justice (to be fair, I've heard similar things about the original 250e set as well). Any ideas as to putting some "umph" into the locomotive?
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Have you run the engine very much by itself? I have a MTH traditional 263 that runs and pulls well. I had to break it in. Didn't try to pull much but it's tender. Forward and reverse too. I use synthetic oil for the axles, wheels and side-rods and white lithium grease on the gears. Maybe that can help your Hiawatha.
A 10-3010-1 would be a better performer.
Steve
Thanks, Steve; I've ran it "solo" then with tender for an hour or so.
The original and all the repos are geared WAY too high and have little pulling power. I don't run mine much because of this. I keep thinking that it is possible to repower the original motor frame. Replace the armature with a same size shaft of tool steel with a worm gear in the middle of the shaft aligned with the worm from a modern Mabuchi 385 can motor. It would run slower but have a great deal more pulling power. The motor frame on these is long enough it may be possible to get two 385 can motors in it. j
I like the way you think John! The devil is in the details: Mounting the motor, achieving the proper gear mesh, etc. There's already some reduction between the armature shaft and the wheels. Most aftermarket worm gear reductions are at least 9:1 and often much higher, so you're looking at a gear ratio of at least 45:1 overall. The result would be a VERY slow train. A "can" motor drive train with that kind of gear reduction would tend to lock up when power is cut, so you'd have to add a flywheel too.
If you look at MTH's "contemporary" version of the O gauge tinplate 263E, that's one possible solution. But there's a lot more vertical "head room" in the 263E boiler. It's ironic that these repro 1930s tinplate have better slow speed performance than most Premier scale models! But the designers took some shortcuts... These don't have a true "gearbox" to maintain precise mesh. The worm gear is pressed directly onto the motor shaft, so if the motor OR the worm gear wears down, an exact replacement is required. And I've seen photos of chewed-up worm wheels too.
ACE Trains (British tinplate) use two RS-385 motors mounted longitudinally in opposite ends of the chassis, with the shafts facing inward toward the middle axle. They redirect the torque at right angles using crown-and-bevel gears. This approach might work in a Hiawatha. But depending on the number of teeth on the bevel gears, it could be notchy, with visible cogging at slow speeds. I believe it would also noisy. If starting from scratch, clean sheet design, a back-drivable, multi-threaded worm with one additional stage of spur gear reduction would be my first choice.
If I hit the lottery, I would sponsor an "X Prize"-type competition for all machinists: Devise a modular retro-fit or upgrade for the ubiquitous Lionel 4- and 6-wheel parallel plate motors, to achieve performance on par with the best HO scale models. No speed control, no gimmicks. Just quality, precision, and good engineering practices. The drive block modifications shouldn't visibly alter the loco's appearance. I figure $15,000,000 should be incentive enough. I mean the problem is only a little more difficult than a reusable spacecraft, or a 100-mpg car. Let's make Postwar relevant again!
See also THIS THREAD which addresses similar considerations with a diesel.
Ted I can envision several ways to modify the 250e I have a couple very small worm gears (worm Wheels) that mesh with the worms on MTH motors that are about 5:1 with the MTH worms That would make the final ratio about 3?:1 However there is room to mount two 365-385 mabuchi cans in a vertical position each meshing with a gear on one axle. I also have a box of gears from two rail scale locos, I'm sure I can come up with a reasonable ratio. I have not ruled out using a chain drive either. I do not expect it to match the low speed ability of my best switcher loco I just want to improve the pulling power. I built gearboxes for some bashed Lionel 1615 switchers in the past and one for the 250e has been on the back burner for some time now, but my current quest is to finishing adding TMCC to my better pre-TMCC locos. I have done about thirty locos thus far with about twenty to go. The 250e and my 252e are on the bucket list though. If I win the lottery I am buying a scale Hiawatha not worrying about modding my old one. Then go sailing for a year. j
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