Modified Lionel PW GP power truck...!!

WANT!

Seriously, my pike is largely switching and I've wished for exactly that mod.

Lew

@DanssuperO who is this fellow, and would he be willing to do a few for me?  Do you know what the resulting gear ratio is?  (stock is about 8.33:1)  

This is the first time I've seen / heard of someone re-gearing Lionel postwar since a company called Scaled Tin Rail stopped offering this service, circa 1991, and it's about time!!  Why should Flyer guys have all the fun?  Best news I've seen on the forum this year!

Well  not to tease he makes for the 600 series  switchers    the same set up ! except he has the motor with them  not just the truck...  he can not do the old 622 die-cast  trucks  he said..  I was hoping he would sale them to me  wholesale but he said he happy doing  what hes  doing  .. anyways  so I know  .. when I talk to him again ..

How much are you willing to pay..?    He claims he has  @3 hours in each one...plus the old truck

I rather not tell you what I paid because I might of paid too much  or too little..

As far as the gear ratio  I would have to count the  gears on  his and you can find someone to figure it out .. All I know is they are really slower you hear the  motor turning faster than the old set up and it has a sort of dozer   drive train sound  when it runs ........daniel

Thanks Daniel.  The truck you're showing in your pictures looks like a 2028-100.  It was used in Geeps, Rectifiers, the EP-5 electric, and the later vertical-motored F3's.

I'm guessing it won't take 3 hours apiece once the work-flow is established ("learning curve").  Also there might be some economies to doing multiple truck blocks at the same time (batching.)

It seems like $50-60 would be a fair price to pay for this service in small batch production.  Of course I would supply the trucks.  Maybe I would consider paying more, but before I decide, I definitely want to know what the resulting gear ratio is.  Thanks for sharing this mod on the Forum!!

I see it involves more than just replacing gears. He had to make and install new gear studs too.

yes..he makes the gears  himself (he says) out of steel and the studs.. and has to machine them in the original  truck  (studs) with shaving to allow them  in the  casting  .. daniel

Truck looks similar to the postwar 2023 postwar engine except the pinion gear also had a blind wheel .

The 2023 when i had it ran like a top.

Does the gear change make it run more like a modern can motored locomotive at slow speed?

Sorry Im  a old school  lionel postwar  with PWC  type of a guy...BUT when I talked to him and asked him . about that question he said the mth trains and ones with can motors and boards can go slow with realistic speeds.. probably why  this modification would only interest  old school guys... daniel

A machinist, and his shop, for three hours? I'm guessing closer to $200. Agree with Ted S that doing several at once should reduce the time (and thus cost) per piece.

Well I'll let you know .. I paid $150.00 for it this included  his 2028-100  and was able to keep my original one on my GP. That's what he wanted that's what  I paid hes old school and would of took his  truck and left!!  Anyways I thought of taking it apart and ask a machine shop to make or duplicate  what he did .. but I have to have a lot of interest and 2028-100 's  for this to happen.. but maybe someone here can do it! I'll buy them if its less than $150.00   well worth it when you see it run...    daniel

nickaix posted:

A machinist, and his shop, for three hours? I'm guessing closer to $200. Agree with Ted S that doing several at once should reduce the time (and thus cost) per piece.

I agree with nickaix.   

If he has access to free equipment and tools in some shop you might get in the $50-$60 range.  

Otherwise the cost of a one of unit that takes three hours of a machinist with equipment, consumable tooling, utilities, floor space, raw material for gears and pins, insurance, scrap (units gone bad), etc. would easily get in the $200 for three hours.  I think the $150 for the truck with the work completed was a fair price.  I agree that having several in hand to work on should reduce the cost.

Dan, mark one of the armature lobes and one of the wheels, then turn the armature by hand and count how many turns it takes for one revolution of the wheel. That will give us the total reduction including the internal worm to worm wheel.

Dave

I marked the armature with a marker then I marked the wheels ......

          When I turned the armature one full revolution it made the wheels move @1/4 inch

Ok got me wondering what do I have..

OK, but you have to count how many revolutions of the armature it takes for one full revolution of the wheel. 

Dave

Dtrainmaster posted:

OK, but you have to count how many revolutions of the armature it takes for one full revolution of the wheel. 

Dave

Using a little math to approximate the new gear ratio. 

Given a wheel diameter of 0.83333 inch for a Lionel diesel (scale 40 inches), this gives a wheel circumference (pi*d) of 2.617 inches. Dividing by 0.25 inch per single revolution of the armature (from above) gives a gear ratio of 10.47, so it takes 10.5 revolutions of the armature to turn the wheels once where as stock is roughly 8 revolutions of the armature to turn the wheels once. 

The horizontal motors are ~9.5:1, a significant reduction from even that of 2343. I would imagine that the new gears would 1.) greatly reduce the speeds of the locomotive, 2.) result in cooler operation of the motor, and 3.) increase tractive effort. 

The gear replacement sounds interesting to me. 

DanssuperO posted:

Well I'll let you know .. I paid $150.00 for it this included  his 2028-100  and was able to keep my original one on my GP. That's what he wanted that's what  I paid hes old school and would of took his  truck and left!!  Anyways I thought of taking it apart and ask a machine shop to make or duplicate  what he did .. but I have to have a lot of interest and 2028-100 's  for this to happen.. but maybe someone here can do it! I'll buy them if its less than $150.00   well worth it when you see it run...    daniel

Easily worth that.

Lew

OK  I turned it 21 times  (of the armature  to make   one full revolution  of the wheels) ..........daniel

If you didn't miss in your counting, that makes it 21:1 total reduction. 

----

WBC, I miked my PW 2338 GP7 some time ago at .890" wheel dia.

Dave

That looks like a 9 tooth pinion. Hard to tell. Can you count that Dan?

Dave

OK................ I an 100% sure  it is 21 armature  revolutions to make one turn on the wheels          ( I Rechecked)          ... hard part is number on that small gear I think its 9 with out taking apart... daniel

if it helps I bought this GP  of of him with this low end gear set up I did not want to pay the difference .. he wanted.. so we removed it and put the stock one in.. But since I made my attic layout and was testing and having trouble using my  postwar engines  on my grades ..  I had to always adjust speed and  wanted to have  a one set voltage that would run  my train with out having to throttle up and down.. when I have company over...  So I saw him at a train show and asked him if I could try it    .. put it in and   it worked!

So what I want to let you know the stock 2028-100 was in it and the new improved version  bolted in no armature exchange just the  2028-100 modified..dan

WBC posted:

DanssuperO posted:

OK  I turned it 21 times  (of the armature  to make   one full revolution  of the wheels) ..........daniel

 

Thus, the gear ratio expected based upon the worm and gear train would be 8.33 + 2.45 = 10.78. 

 

 

That is 8.33 x 2.45 = 20.41:1

----------------

WBC, you're probably right about the 11 tooth pinion; 

9 tooth pinion would give 25:1

10 tooth pinion would be 22.5:1

Dave

@DanssuperO I know this isn't the buy-sell forum.  But please tell your friend that I'm interested for $150 each if it includes the truck block (which is, if I understand correctly, the same deal he gave you.)  In fact, I would like two, and maybe more in the future...

I think the stock transfer gear probably has 25 teeth.  The custom transfer gear ("pinion") must have have 10 teeth.  So the new gear ratio would be 25/10 * old gear ratio.  25/10 * 8.33 = 20.83 or about 21:1, just as Daniel measured.

Thanks again for bringing this up on the Forum!

Ted S posted:

I think the stock transfer gear probably has 25 teeth.  The custom transfer gear ("pinion") must have have 10 teeth.  So the new gear ratio would be 25/10 * old gear ratio.  25/10 * 8.33 = 20.83 or about 21:1, just as Daniel measured.

 

Ted, 8.33 is the ratio of the worm-set. The original external gear set was 27 tooth wheel gear / 25 tooth pinion which gave 1.08:1.

8.33333 x 1.08 = 9  the original total ratio ("old gear ratio")

(25/10) x 9 = 22.5:1

 Dave

Dtrainmaster posted:

WBC posted:

DanssuperO posted:

OK  I turned it 21 times  (of the armature  to make   one full revolution  of the wheels) ..........daniel

 

Thus, the gear ratio expected based upon the worm and gear train would be 8.33 + 2.45 = 10.78. 

 

 

That is 8.33 x 2.45 = 20.41:1

----------------

WBC, you're probably right about the 11 tooth pinion; 

9 tooth pinion would give 25:1

10 tooth pinion would be 22.5:1

Dave

 

Yep, multiply not add. That is what I get for rapid posts while at work. 

With at 21:1 gear ratio cogging must nearly be eliminated, but top speed is probably no more than 50 mph. 

Thinking about this some more, I wanted to verify what was actually supplied with the PW units. Looks like we all were off a little.
I made the mistake of using a 25 tooth worm wheel, like those used in the 41 switchers, for my calculations.
Ted S was the closest using 8.33:1 overall.

Before I opened my original GP7's gear train to count teeth, I did what I had asked Dan to do, count the armature revolutions to 1 wheel turn. Something wasn't right, they never fully aligned with the original marks (all gear lash was removed). Not at my calculated 9:1, and 8.33:1 should have aligned at 25 turns of the armature.
Here's what I found:
PW GP7 gearing
3 start worm
23 T worm wheel
25 T pinion
17 T idlers
27 T wheel gears
---------------------
Original:
23 T worm wheel / 3 start worm = 7.6667:1 worm ratio
27 T wheel / 25 T pinion = 1.08:1
7.6667 x 1.08 = 8.28:1 total ratio

New (Dan's):
27 T wheel / 10 T pinion = 2.7:1
7.6667 x 2.7 = 20.7:1 total ratio

Other:
9 T pinion = 23:1 total ratio
11 T pinion = 18.8:1 total ratio

Dave

Well now that we've worked the math out, none of us will ever enjoy the benefits unless the mysterious machinist (near Pittsburgh?) comes forward to accept orders for small batch production.  @DanssuperO any updates?  Did you let your friend know that some folks on the forum are interested?

hes a tough cookie!  I'll try.. and let you know when I see him again 

BUT what I was hoping for  all of you guys is that it can be done and maybe someone here can work with a shop and get these done  as mentioned cheaper

daniel

Dan, how about that video. We don't need to see it run on a completed layout.

And please count the teeth of the new idler gears.

Dave

The guy is sitting by me right now he said middle gear is 10 teeth two large ones are 25 teeth  stock  drive wheels are stock.. 

I will put one for sale on the ebay .. when he gives me one to put on.... the starting price is going to be        $ 200.00  + shipping   he told me when he sales them he makes them with magnetization and Drive bands...

He personally sold these up to $500.00 when first started!

@DanssuperO can you please EMAIL me with a link to the auction when it's posted?  My email address is in my profile.  I would tell you to post the link in this thread, but I think the moderators would consider that a form of selling, which isn't allowed in this forum.

Thanks!!

Update after yesterdays  meeting. ... He brought me a late postwar  NW-2 Switcher ..As  you can see he did the same to this engine .. 

I would highly suggest if someone can find  a machinist that could do what he did same specs as above.I asked him for MORE but he did not seem to want to jump on making them for production...

But hopefully someone can see that IT can be done and get it done..!

He also said he made new bushings for the axles and purposely  used traction tires for the non metal rails.

Once again I am posting in hopes someone can and will make these .. I have my doubts he will ...

Daniel

The 10-tooth pinion and 25-tooth intermediate gears look like stock Lionel gears.  Some of the genius in this mod is precisely locating the studs to achieve the proper mesh.  The intermediate gears can't practically be any larger (or any closer to the rail head), because you would encounter some of the known problems with prewar steam and "fat wheel Marx," i.e., the gear teeth will contact the guide rails on switches.

It also looks like the wheel bearings (bushings) were carefully adjusted to protrude slightly, so that the backs of the wheels don't rub on the larger intermediate gears.  I doubt Lionel installed them that precisely at the factory!

It seems like redoing the studs would be easier with a 2028-100 truck block.  And that's generally regarded as a better quality drive than the sheet metal 600's.  I respect this man's skills enormously, but my personal preference would be no tires.  Just add weight, or better still, two powered trucks.  (For a dual-motored setup, you would have to start with a 2383 truck block, because it's recessed on the underside to accept a pickup roller.)

Personally I'm sick of "speed control" and all the failure-prone electronic gimmicks.  With a home-sized layout I don't need to go more than 50-60 mph, so I'm convinced there's a market for mods like this.  Hopefully this isn't the last we'll hear of these mods!

  " respect this man's skills enormously, but my personal preference would be no tires. "

I just returned after lunch to test  drive it ..  Unfortunately with the traction tires it did not perform as well as the 2028-100  with magnification... I t was fine till I hit the grades  when I did  it spun the tires.

It sounded the same   moved out the same....

So my point is if someone is going to do this just do the 2028-100 and you'll have a lot of customers!

Daniel