Gw180 breaker speed

The GW180 uses the PH180 brick that has an excellent electronic breaker circuit, it's much faster than any thermal breaker.

#1 understanding the difference between VOLTAGE and Current. the analogy to water is Voltage is pressure, and Current is the volume of flow.

Your DZ2500s are not failing because of current- they are failing likely because the voltage spike generated from inductive transients during a fault. Electronic devices have a key value- peak maximum voltage- beyond which they break down. This is kind of like a water pressure rating. If a random spike in water pressure bursts a component- that resulting permanent leak then results in uncontrolled flow. EDIT- the example in the DZ2500 is that a derail or just other transient voltage spike (something like 30+V or more ) shoots down the anti-derailing sensing leads right in the microcontroller of the DZ2500 switch motor. Since that pin of the microprocessor chip has a maximum peak voltage limit- exceeding that can then minimally blow that sensing pin function and worst case- blow the entire processor chip effectively killing the DZ2500 switch motor.

#2 Circuit breakers and fuses protect against Current- not voltage. Breakers basically do nothing to protect electronics other than after the fact of damage and the electronics go dead short- then the breaker trips. The purpose of a fuse or breaker is to allow power to valid loads, and attempt to detect and stop current transients above a rated value and time duration. It's mostly to protect the thin wiring and paths (example circuit traces) to prevent a total meltdown and possible fire risk. Again, a breaker is a good idea- but not because it will save your precious electronics- it won't save them. It prevent further and even more expensive damage when the uncontrolled short created in many failures just then blows and burns up anything in the path. EDIT- again, in the case of the DZ2500 switch motor- they are not pulling excessive current even in failure mode- the wiring is not melting and burning up- hence there is no dead short that any breaker would detect.

I would argue- what do you think you are trading off here?

The GW180 is a 2 part system- a Powerhouse 180 Watt 18V 10A capable power source with a pretty fast acting circuit breaker. The GW180 controller is an FET based electronic variable voltage chopping device to allow for variable output. One thing it does not have in either part of the system is any form of TVS- Transient Voltage Suppression

The Z1000 brick has a slower thermal breaker but also is only 100 W at 18V roughly 6A  VS the much higher current capable source of the powerhouse 180 with 10A+.

If the Z1000 brick is used in conjunction with the latest Z controller to make variable voltage, the latest version does have a TVS diode, but it's more about trying to protect the FETs in the controller than anything external.

Bottom line- Changing transformers doesn't change the problem- in fact makes it worse. Fast breaker or not, the GW180 is a higher current capable power source and higher threshold current before a trip, meanwhile also doing absolutely jack squat for voltage limiting or suppression.

Again, at the end of the day- if your problem is you are killing DZ2500s and you think it is related to derailments or use of anti derailing sensing- you need to solve that- using TVS- not changing your transformer.

First- Z stuff recommends using regular diodes in series with the sensing rails. This is a reasonable first layer of protection, but if you need more than that, Simply put a properly rated TVS across sense leads to common. This would then kill off any voltage spike.

Second- then put a TVS or multiple in your accessory power bus feeding the DZ2500 switch machines. This prevents a voltage spike from entering the switch motor electronics via the aux power source.

This PDF is the one from Z stuff https://www.zstuffexpress.com/...87963dea595ccef9.pdf

However, we can take it further and additional TVS protection.

Example TVS value 1.5KE36CA- note the CA is important as you need bi-directional versions.

https://www.digikey.com/en/pro...E36CALFCT-ND/1530580

@Vernon Barry. Thank you for the explanation. Not sure if helps the OP but it certainly helps me. I put TVS diodes on my new layout in addition to three 180W bricks. Did it solely based on reading this forum like an article of faith, but now I understand (better) why. Thanks!

Vernon, thanks for the detailed info. I had come across the tvs protection in my research and was planning to implement that in addition to the circuit breaker, now I have a much better understanding of what and why. Seems my z1000 and it's brick is probably sufficient then since it does have breaker protection as far as the amp protection goes? I just need to do the tvs diodes to protect my switch machines from transient voltage (my real problem causing failure), if I'm understanding correctly. Or should I really consider putting another faster breaker externally from my brick?

@Johnny B posted:

Vernon, thanks for the detailed info. I had come across the tvs protection in my research and was planning to implement that in addition to the circuit breaker, now I have a much better understanding of what and why. Seems my z1000 and it's brick is probably sufficient then since it does have breaker protection as far as the amp protection goes? I just need to do the tvs diodes to protect my switch machines from transient voltage (my real problem causing failure), if I'm understanding correctly. Or should I really consider putting another faster breaker externally from my brick?

Correct, while Faster breaker can be better at protecting- key point- "what it can protect"- it was never ever going to protect against the failure mode you are experiencing of the DZ2500.

Electronics typically fail because of voltage. Yes, sure, there are all kinds of failure modes and yes, overcurrent, shorts, jammed and stalled motor are some examples- but a vast majority are either incorrect polarity (I put AC up a DC circuit in this category), or voltage that exceeds a rated component.

I'll be the first to say I advocate breakers. I pound this point all the time- there are lots of folks out there- especially new folks, and being I'm in the repair side of the business- I'm seeing these people because they burned something up and are coming to me to fix it.

But I also stress- a breaker- no matter how fast, no matter how sensitive, will NOT protect against a whole swath of electronics failure. Examples- lionchief drawbar wiring short- connecting the speaker to AC frame common blows the board- there is no "breaker" on the planet that would prevent this. These DZ2500s failing- again no breaker on the planet would detect the current change as the microcontroller chip fails. Unless you had said I have one where the wires melted- a breaker and how long it took had nothing to do with preventing the failure.

Conversely, I cite again the topic https://ogrforum.com/topic/158674373723181699 and this picture of what happens when a modern passenger derails and lack of a breaker and high current burns these to a crisp.

Back to the question:

Is the Z1000 thermal breaker fast enough?

I generally say yes for 2 reasons, the brick power is limited and generally, it kicks in fast enough that extreme damage like the above burned up passenger car situation is not catastrophic.

Did you have similar situations where you actually burned up or melted wiring and or caused damage by extended high current before the breaker tripped? I think a safe assumption is no, you simply had derailments and noted in damage assessments later- the DZ25000 failed.

Length of how long the breaker took to trip did not change the voltage spike in any way, nor would it have prevented it. How long is the danger of cooking wires and traces.

You certainly can add a faster acting breaker in series to any transformer or power source.

As far as protecting electronics- again we believe you have a situation where you knew you derailed, and in doing so spike were generated. This is where the TVS protection kicks in. No breaker can prevent a spike- only a TVS can short the spike to prevent it from then stressing and ultimately failing the electronics.

Thanks again!! I have a slew of the tvs 1.5KE36CA on order! I may add a faster external breaker on my brick too.