C&O Help needed - I know nothing!!!

Not an expert on any railroad and as a rule just run what I like because the chances of anyone that views my layout could care less, so I run as many L&N (Louisville &  Nashville) engines and rolling stock as possible on the 3 lower deck  loops .By the way the L&N trains look OK with the NYC Hudson (VL) passenger train  and Union Pacific (VL) freight (lot of mixed brands) running on the upper deck .

Have fun and good luck on your Railroad!

Brent

LIONEL C&O F-19 SCALE 4-6-2 PACIFIC "THE GEORGE WASHINGTON" #494

In the big auction site right now. It would be very appropriate for pulling a C&O passenger train.

A kanawha would be nice.   Shoot any c&o loco would work.   I'll run anything with anything.   I have several c&o passenger trains and I have a c&o Lionel berk and it looks great on the head of a set of Madison's or streamliner.

I agree with Gilly, the Lionel F-19 "George Washington" is a great looking/running engine. It's one of my favorite engines for sure!

Happy 4th of July,

Greg

www.youtube.com/trainbros89

The Lionel 21" C&O cars are OK if you don't mind them being fairly inaccurate. Primarily the Lionel cars are modeled after Budd built cars and the C&O used Pullman Standard cars. Lionel also didn't get the paint scheme right. But if that's not an issue for you go for it.

The C&O cars arrived in mid-1950 and served in basically the same paint scheme until Amtrak day. In the early 50's they would be pulled primarily by Greenbriers and Hudsons. To a lesser extent by Pacifics and Kanawhas. After about 1953 motive power would be E-8's supplemented by FP-7's until the late 50's.

These cars were mixed in to PM trains in the mid 50's. By the way, who is making a PM E7?

A handful Alleghenies were equipped for passenger service but I believe these were only used on some troop trains during WW2.

Ken

"who is making a PM E7?"

Pretty sure Williams made this particular paint scheme a while ago.  Can't vouch for accuracy of paint job, but it was nice looking.

Fred

Lionel is making the PM E7. It is due next month

I didn't realize Lionel was doing a PM E-7. I bet Lionel gets the yellow on those PM units wrong as it was a pale yellow called "Venetian Yellow". The C&O yellow was called "Federal Yellow" and is much darker. The Williams version is a later hybrid C&O/PM paint scheme. At the time those particular units were ordered the PM had been merged into the C&O.

So from what I believe you are saying is that the Lionel PM E7 set will not work because the paint schemes on the cars came at a later date? I saw a picture of PM 101 or 102 in late picture I thought like 1952 or something on the internet a few months back, but now I cant find it. How long until these engines were re painted like the Williams engine? And did the PM engines only run on the PM track or did they adventure sometimes system wide? I understand about the cars (roof wrong color, etc.) from what you have said. I looked at a bunch of pictures a sure enough some had blue roofs. Were some painted black at a later time? Or are they being painted black now that they are being used in excursion service?

I Pulled the triger on Lionel's 4 car set and diner yesterday (just found a sale that made them way cheaper than any of my pre ordered sets delivered) so now I have to decide on what to pull them. I am in no hurry so I can wait it out. I am pretty much a 50's modeler, but I do have some stuff from about every period going forward.

So it sounds like my choices are Order a E8 or two from 3rd rail. ( I have seen a few pictures of a single running in some recent pictures #4006 - not sure where it is located). Wait to find a Lionel E8 set (cheaper route). Or look around for Berkshire like 6-11452 #2687 that I run in pretend mode or from what I briefly read that the engine was being restored for excursion service. That might be fun with allof my UP excursion stuff running (844, etc). I also have seen a picture of F7 #8016 in today's pictures running around. Did the C&O use any F units in passenger service or were they freight only?

Thanks for the help

Blue Streak,

 I had to pull out a reference book to answer your question, but here goes a long explanation:

PM E7's 101-108 were ordered before the C&O/PM merger and were delivered in the paint scheme shown in the Lionel catalog.

E7's 95-98 were delivered after the merger and were delivered in the hybrid paint scheme. This is the scheme used on the WBB E7's.

When the E7's were repainted some got the standard C&O passenger diesel scheme but were lettered PM.

After another repaint they looked just like C&O E8's.

A couple even got the B&O "Blue Dip" scheme late in life.

The original PM Pullman Standard passenger cars were lettered for PM.

After the C&O Pullman Standard passenger cars were delivered in mid 1950, many of these were used on the PM district. Therefore an E7 in the first PM scheme could have very well pulled C&O passenger cars in the early to mid 50's.

As far as excursions go, the C&O ran a few excursion trains in the late 60's with C&O lettered passenger equipment. After Amtrak day most of the C&O cars were scrapped with just a handful retained by Amtrak which were either repainted Amtrak or retired within a few years. As far as I know the only C&O lettered cars in excursion service are (or were):

• Privately owned Chapel Hill heavyweight observation currently in service
• Gadsby's Tavern heavyweight diner on the Potomac Eagle Scenic Railroad (now at the C&OHS in Clifton Forge, VA).
• Eagle Canon PS lightweight on the Potomac Eagle Scenic railroad. I'm not sure if its still there.

Ken

Kanawa,

Thanks for all the information. I think I should go C&O E8's.

I have one last question unrelated to the topic. I saw and old post from you about your 3rd rail E7 and pics, etc. You show a picture of the big lobster claw coupler sticking out of the pilot (I understand I am a 3 rail guy) and you mention that no big deal I plan on installing the pilot with the closed door. Is this included in the box? I have (2) Texas & Pacific on order with Scott and the big claw is the one thing I do not like. Might spring for the C&O (will the 3rd rail C&O E's have black roofs? Those PA's are going to cost me and the T&P 2-10-4.

Thanks

Lionel made the C&O streamlined Hudson many moons ago.....

I recall some posts about poor performance of those Lionel streamlined C&O Hudsons. Add an upgrade to the purchase price. They look good, though.

Is your name Jon Snow?

Larry

rex desilets posted:

Lionel made the C&O streamlined Hudson many moons ago.....

The Yellow Belly 490 from the '90's would suit nicely since Lionel's 21" cars aren't all that highly detailed.  A much better match than the C&O 15" aluminum cars Lionel offered back then.  Just don't expect the 490 to pull a 10 car string of 21 inchers without refitting it with a can motor.

Bruce

I like the idea of the yellow belly 490. I have to many E units now of other roads. The streamlined Hudson would be different. But I will wait for a Lionel remake. 

Blue Streak posted:

I have one last question unrelated to the topic. I saw and old post from you about your 3rd rail E7 and pics, etc. You show a picture of the big lobster claw coupler sticking out of the pilot (I understand I am a 3 rail guy) and you mention that no big deal I plan on installing the pilot with the closed door. Is this included in the box? I have (2) Texas & Pacific on order with Scott and the big claw is the one thing I do not like. Might spring for the C&O (will the 3rd rail C&O E's have black roofs? Those PA's are going to cost me and the T&P 2-10-4.

Thanks

The 3RD Rail E7 came with an extra pilot with the closed pilot door. It is on the left in this picture.

Center is the MTH E8, right is the Lionel E8. My 3RD Rail E7 came with black trucks, black fuel tank, and black rear. I repainted all these the correct blue. The Lionel engine also has black trucks and fuel tank but I haven't gotten around to repainting them. The MTH E8 is painted correctly. Incidentally, I saw recently that Mr. Muffin's Trains still has one of the MTH sets in stock.

I didn't order a 3RD Rail E8 because I have enough E7/8's. I don't know whether Scott is going to include an additional closed door pilot with those or not.

Ken

Kanawa,

Thanks for the information. Wish I had bought a Lionel Set, just because I am pretty much a TMCC operator. But I am late to the game. Will look at the MTH set. But I may stick to my guns and wait out a number 490 some day.

Lots of great ideas from all and I will talk to Scott about the pilot on my T&P units

I know nothing!

That is exactly who I was thinking about when I started this topic.

Blue Streak posted:

Kanawa,

Thanks for all the information. I think I should go C&O E8's.

Blue Streak posted:

So I am thinking about buying a set of Lionel 's 21" C&O passenger cars. ..........

..........I like the looks of the Pere Marquette E7's that are due soon, but not sure the cars match them or if Pere Marquette ever ran these cars with those engines. .......

........The Pere Marquette engines have the black stripes in the silver band and the cars do not. What is the expert opinion?

Any other ideas that a person could think of would be appreciated.

   The B&W photos just don't do these engines paint jobs any justice. IMO the others pale next to this. Though stunning also, the tail end hardly matters. After this, "I see nothing".

Nnnnnooooothing!

Adriatic,

Can you tell me when those pictures were taken and possibly where? They are the first pictures I have seen with the PM E7's and 1952+ cars. I do not have any books on PM or C&O.

Thanks for the pictures

Here's a "billboard shot" with a stronger C&O flavor.

I haven't been ale to find hide nor hair of this company to learn more of the pictures origin though.

I've seen other postcard/billboard art using a deep violet or charcoal top too. Not necessarily prototypical, but cool .

Schultz is great

Blue Streak posted:

Adriatic,

Can you tell me when those pictures were taken and possibly where? They are the first pictures I have seen with the PM E7's and 1952+ cars. I do not have any books on PM or C&O.

Thanks for the pictures

Not really, I "read around". I only remember I was about to fall asleep, found those and saved them, woke up, and the computer had timed out.

    Small number boards are delivered 1946 (101&102), larger boards 1947 (103-108). C&O maybe the same too? But in 48 C&O #95-98 was large boards too from what I've read. It was possibly modeled in brass ho by Rail Classics(?)

   The B&W photos just don't do these engines paint jobs any justice. IMO the others pale next to this. Though stunning also, the tail end hardly matters. After this, "I see nothing".

Great pictures. Really shows the pale yellow. Gorgeous paint scheme.

Ken

I pull mine with my Lionel E8s - they are beautiful engines.  They are replacing my MTH ABA similar to the billboard set that were PS1 that I upgraded to PS2 (2 independent PS2 A Units) that I will be selling at some point.  Here is a video of the Lionel AA set with my consist.