Carl shows Lionel how it should be done

Nice video.

Nicely done!

Peter

 Carl has an AWESOME layout and does incredible work!

Al

Very nice!

Here is the web page for updating the Mikado.

 

http://www.tuveson.com/mikado-.../updating_mikado.htm 

 

Ok, now you've went and done it.
I'd sell my cats and dog to have one of these?  Are there any available anywhere? 
My very favorite steam loco!
Carl, can't tell, are those scale wheels?  If not, I'm sure it could be done.
The sound is awesome and the chuff synch is so sweet!  Makes a very impressive difference!
Johnny/Carl, thanks for posting!
Wow!

I saw this -very cool!   I have asked Marketing to add the re-hit of the Mikado for 3 years based on customer feedback.  I wonder if we have the tooling?

Wow... wonderful work. Excellent performance, wonderful sound and love that puffing smoke.  Lionel did a very good job on capturing the "look" of a Mike.

 

John:  It appears from the picture that Carl posted as well as some of the views in this video that the wheels are straight Flyonel.

I'd wager if the Mikado (and the Pacific) were run again AND the wheels could be reworked like the Y3, there'd also be interest from the Scale side.

 

Rusty

I suppose one option would be to consider a built to order option for both hi-rail and scale options, that way they would have actual numbers to work to.

 

I was also intrigued as to what Jon hinted at if they still have the tooling, surely it doesn't get written off after such a short life span, or does it?

I would be on board for another run of mikes with legacy.  

 

Ben 

Carl's work also indicates that the wherewithall exists for Lionel to "do" an all-new scale Hudson, PRR K4, a real Berk, etc. in S. Reissuing the Mikado in Legacy is a nice idea, but something else that is truly new would cause my wallet to open more readily.

 

Bob

Bob, 

 

With the resurgence of all the current steam engines potentially being restored, I feel that a good candidate for a new model is the N&W 611. It would be a new model that has not been done in 'S' before as a mass produced item and with a set of six passenger cars be the star of any collection for display or as a set to be run.

 

Regards,

Well....

 

The #611 is nice and all, but a USRA-based 2-8-2 seems like it would be suitable to many different roads and locations...dare I say perhaps more so than the big N&W Northern?

 

Mark in Oregon

It's funny.  About a million years ago (OK... late 1980's) G&W Models announced a painted brass "J" to be available in Flyer/HiRail or Scale for around $500.00.  (An Omnicon scale only brass 2-8-0 was around $425.00)  The project died for lack of interest.

 

River Raisin also tried a scale only "J" about 5 years ago (a bit pricier at around $2K.)  It also died due to lack of reservations.

 

Puzzling...  You would have thought it would've been a slam-dunk in either case.  Maybe there's just not a lot of N&W enthusiasts in S.

 

Regardless of the past, I think either an N&W "J" or SP Daylight GS4 would be a good idea right about now.  Both engines have nice, big friendly tenders to cram electronics in.  Maybe all the "bells and whistles" would bring folks out of the woodwork.

 

Rusty

 

Well, the SHS 2-8-0 did fly for the most part. $2k in the Flyer/hi-rail market is too high, particualry without modern features. A new (you pick it) would be ~$800. Imagine an all new scale detailed Legacy J3a Hudson with heavyweights as a set, if you will, to propose an example. I bet it would sell well enough to justify the tooling. Your suggestion of a GS4 is another good one.

 

Do a Mikado, too. But, the means exist to do something new and more special than just another reissue.

 

Bob

Rusty,

 

It's funny.  About a million years ago (OK... late 1980's) G&W Models announced a painted brass "J" to be available in Flyer/HiRail or Scale for around $500.00.  (An Omnicon scale only brass 2-8-0 was around $425.00)  The project died for lack of interest.

 

River Raisin also tried a scale only "J" about 5 years ago (a bit pricier at around $2K.)  It also died due to lack of reservations.

 

Puzzling...  You would have thought it would've been a slam-dunk in either case.  Maybe there's just not a lot of N&W enthusiasts in S.

 

Regardless of the past, I think either an N&W "J" or SP Daylight GS4 would be a good idea right about now.  Both engines have nice, big friendly tenders to cram electronics in.  Maybe all the "bells and whistles" would bring folks out of the woodwork.

 

Rusty

 

In my experience the proposed brass products were always aimed towards the DC scale side of our gauge. If scale is thought to be only 15% of the gauge in sales, a hi-rail A/F version would appeal to a greater quantity of S gauge buyers. The Mike has already been produced in TMCC and if the dies still exist, it would be a cheaper way for Lionel to produce a "new" model but how many Legacy versions would be bought since the Mike was already once around the block? A new offering such as the J, GS4, J3 hudson or even a Niagra would generate more interest as a new introduction.

 

Rich

 

The G&W Models "J" was definately targeting the Flyer crowd, but back in the 80's there was quite a bit of resistance to anything not Flyer (AM was fairly new, SHS didn't exist yet.)  I'm pretty sure the price ($500.00) was a turn off because "you could get a Flyer Northern for $125.00" (this was the 80's, remember...)  I'm pretty sure attitudes have moderated since then.

 

Still, the time may be ripe for a full-featured "J" or some other fairly large, scale detailed non-articulated locomotive, along with a re-release of the Mikado, which stands out as one of Lionel's best ideas for Flyer (in my opinion.)

 

Rusty

Was the AF 'S' MIKADO made by sanda kan.?.. Maybe that`s what Jon Z meant by "if we have the tooling". 

Guys, How about taking the "I'd rather see X" talk to another thread? There have been plenty of those. We are way off track now.

 

Nobody would like to see more new product offered than me but the ENTIRE point of this post was to point out what can be done with existing tooling. Lionel has shown a propensity for updating electronics in older tooling. It's basically their M.O. Not that I blame them, tooling is expensive. Carl is a fantastic modeler and has done an outstanding job with his Mikado. He has basically provided a blueprint for how it should be done. The fact that Jon Z. noticed and spoke to Lionel marketing is fantastic. I thank him for that. There is a much much greater chance of seeing reworked electronics in existing tooling (if they have it) than new tooling at this time IMHO. Relatively low hanging fruit...

One has to wonder since both the Western Pacific 2-8-2 and Southern 4-6-2 passenger set wound up being cancelled.

 

If S-K does still own the tooling, they're probably using them for doorstops.

 

Rusty

 

Teh Mikados and the Pacifics were assembled by Sanda Kan, if I recall correctly. The WP 2-8-2 and the Southern 4-6-2 set may possibly not have been made because of a low number of preorders. The WP was illustrated in the catalog with the incorrect type of tender and there was no stated upgrade in features, among other issues. A lot of Mikes and Pacifics have been made and are in abundance on the secondary market and as new old stock at dealers.

 

I am a great admirer of Carl's work. If it is the case that the market is saturated with the previously made Mikados, it follows that it is also worthwhile to discuss the application of his learning and handiwork to all new steam engines for the future.

 

Bob

I agree with you Bob. If Lionel is going to stay committed to S, the future steam engines need to be 1/64 versions of their O scale cousins. Legacy, RailSounds with 4 chuffs and appropriate whistles, puffing smoke, LED lighting, etc... Basically everything that modern models have in other scales. At one time it was said that the electronics were just too big. It seems that Carl has shown that there are options. I am hopeful that we may see some new scale steam that isn't a big articulated. I just hope they pick up the pace.

Would Lionel not own the tooling? or would it have been "left behind" in the shuffle? I have often wondered why more we're not made, including the Gilbert-esk flyonel northern.  They only made three versions (two UP and one Milwaukee road).  I don't know how much it takes from start to finish to get a new loco out there but it would seem there is more market to make profit from with some of this tooling...if Lionel owns it.  

 

Ben 

I`ve heard that sanda kan owned the K-Line Tooling besides making the tooling and maybe all the Products.. I do believe that sanda kan owned part of the AF and LIONEL Tooling, but the train companies talk little about this subject and the same with sales numbers..

Well, I don't think many of the Flyer enthusiasts would know or care about the WP tender being wrong or right.  They bought up the WP Challenger, which WP had exactly none of with the UP profile, let alone a with centipede tender.

 

Plus the Flyer-Chief Berkshire sets apparently will come with a downsized NYC tender, nobody seems to mind...(or I'll be dining on crow when a pilot model surfaces...)

 

Maybe the WP Mike just suffered from Mikado overload.  As to the Southern set, I would be surprised about the lack of pre-orders.  There were only two previous Pacific sets, the Alton and the Blue Comet.  Perhaps Lionel should have illustrated the locomotive with the Elesco feedwater heater like the Erie Pacific.  Seems like anything Southern is usually magic in O Gauge.

 

Or, could be the magic is different in S...

 

Still if Lionel's not going to inundate us with more Pacific's and Mikado's, it would seem a good idea to broaden the variety.   A scale detailed NYC Hudson anyone?  K4?  A proper UP FEF3?  SP GS4? Santa Fe 3751 Class Northern?  NYC Mohawk?

 

Rusty

I saw a video about the Sanda Kan Factory and it`s a hugh sprawling complex and they showed them making Tooling, Building Models and Designing Products.. Almost all of the workers live on-sight... Also MTH wanted SHS not to mention their purchase of Tooling until all of it had been moved out of sanda kan.. I`ve heard of a lot of companies having trouble getting their tooling out of sanda kan, because of owing money or just dragging their feet .. 

A number of my Flyer friends in the West harrumphed about the tender on the cataloged WP. You never know. I have also heard lots of grumbling about what the Berk might turn out to be. Gilbert's die cast steam engines were pretty decent models for their time. That level of accuracy and scale proportion is a minimum standard for many (most?) Flyer fans.

 

As for your suggestions for future Legacy steam engines, almost any one of them would interest me. 

 

Bob

Given the Polar Express set (and very likely the other two Berkshire sets) have a target MSRP of $399.99, I'm not turned off by a plastic tender.  Mildly disturbed if it's a downsized clone of the O27 Berk tender, yes.  Time will tell to see what it turns out to be.  These are intended to be entry level sets, something that's been sorely missing in S.  I'm still interested in getting the NKP freight set, regardless.

 

To be sure, when Lionel eventually comes out with a Flyer Legacy Berkshire, it's not going to be anywhere near $399,99.

 

I'll grant that Gilbert set a standard with their Hudson's, K5's and Northern's way back when, but even then the bulk of their steam train sets since 1952 or so used the plastic (boiler and tender) Atlantic's and Pacific's, (the exception being the New Haven Pacific which had a die-cast boiler and lo and behold, a plastic tender...) which were less detailed and simplified locomotives verses their die cast cousins used in the premium sets.  Heck, the Atlantic's and Pacific's even used the same tender...

 

So, even ol' A.C. had to compromise.  Add in the "Casey Jones" 4-4-0's and oversized Franklin's and we see that old Gilbert trains weren't always "perfect."

 

Rusty

 

I believe that most would accept a plastic tender on the PE Berk provided that it is the correct scale length and it has 6-wheel trucks. The cost to do it correctly vs. incorrectly is trivial.

 

As for A. C. Gilbert, even the Atlantics had a decent approximation of what the real Reading P7's had. The Northern, J3a, K5, and 0-8-0 had the correct tenders for their prototypes. The Casey Jones was introduced after A. C. Sr.'s passing and the Franklin was done on the quick in 1959 while A. C. Jr. was responsible for running the company. Just because compromises began to escalate with Flyer's decline does not provide an excuse to not do an affordable, recognizable Lima Berk to scale proportions.

 

Your mileage may vary.

 

Bob

I wish I would not have watched the video.

I agree the cost of doing it right is equal to doing it wrong.  But we are dealing with Lionel here.  It's not like they haven't been victims of wrong guidance, shall we say, before.  

 

However, I can see that these sets are aimed more at the newbie, someone who's less interested in accuracy and more interested in smoke and sound at a lower price.  I would also suspect that a genericfied NYC tender may be a harbinger of things to come at the entry level. 

 

At this level, is a generic tender any worse than a zombie boxcar, mint cars or fantasy paint jobs?

 

I would expect, however, a correct tender on a full-featured top of the line Berk or any other steam locomotive.

 

There certainly seem to be few complaints about the tender on the "Berkshire Junior" in the traditional Lionel O gauge line.  (MTH also has the wrong tender on their Railking Berks, even the "Imperial" versions.)  It seems to be self perpetuating in the "toy train" sphere.

 

Were gonna have to wait and see, that's all.  As the boys at the Circle L Ranch seem to be reluctant to comment, all we have is a catalog illustration that uses a photoshopped O27 Berkshire Junior to go on. 

 

I'm not a Lionel apologist, I'm just trying to make rational observations from the outside at how they've been operating.

 

Rusty