rattler21 posted:Jack, We were in Berwyn Trains yesterday, Tom has Atlas Zephyr cars on the top shelf. Priced per car, not as a group. John in Lansing.
Yes, I know as I visit there every Saturday morning. I have already purchased the two CZ cars I wanted. Thanks.
I'll be there...with my wallet....
I told that Sunset will be there along with Atlas Kohs and Midwestern Model works. But Key will not be there this year and is his website is not active to get in touch with him. If this is different than what I am told please let us know. Tom Marsh was at the Indy show. I hope he will be at the Chicago O Show too. Shows mean a lot more to me when the big guys are there. Does any one else know of other "BIG GUYS" that will be there? Maybe Erik or Rodger could give us an answer why Key may miss this show.
Stephen
Norm from Norm’s O-Scale & Norm from Protocraft will be there.I made arrangements to pick up some track related stuff from them at the show.
Bill from O-Scale Turnouts will be there. He plans to introduce some new turnout related stuff along with a 66” display for turnout detail parts.
These are just my opinion. Thanks.
Naveen Rajan
Uh oh. Also tried to ring up Key's website yesterday........zero. Hope not an ominous sign.
Mark: That is what is said. No one has corrected this nor has Roger or Erik responded. I hope this is not true, as I had items ordered from Key for customers. I was really looking forward to seeing the big boy prototype model again in Chicago. I thought it was a very highly detailed model.
Stephen
If any of them (especially Dave, who lives in California) have allergies like I do I can understand. I haven't had them this bad since I was a kid 50+ years ago. This wacky California El Nino has just had plants growing their behind's off to catch up after the past 4 years.
Roger's Wasatch Models website is up and his update says he is reordering the Cudo 3 axle passenger trucks. Don't know what this means as far as Key Imports but I am taking it as a good sign.
VGN64: Actually with Key not attending the Chicago show and the Key (not Wasatch) website being down for a long period of time with projects supposedly coming looks to be a not so good sign. The Zephyr cars delayed now for more than six years and no updates on the projects does not sound good. I do hope that there is a change and Key does show at the Chicago O meet. Now that Overland is no longer doing brass, it would sad to lose another importer. Tom marsh said at the Indy meet that the Key Early F2& 3 projects or now on hold as there are not enough orders.
Stephen
The industry is changing as injection plastic molds are less expensive to do. Time is money so the amount of time spent preparing for a brass model gets higher and higher as the customer demands more exacting rivets, bells and whistles. Judging by the success of Sunset/Golden Gates latest passenger trains and Atlas's Zephyr the world of $800-$1000 passenger cars may be disappearing. I can understand Key shelving the Zephyr and F units seeing what Atlas is doing.
VGN64 posted:The industry is changing as injection plastic molds are less expensive to do. Time is money so the amount of time spent preparing for a brass model gets higher and higher as the customer demands more exacting rivets, bells and whistles. Judging by the success of Sunset/Golden Gates latest passenger trains and Atlas's Zephyr the world of $800-$1000 passenger cars may be disappearing. I can understand Key shelving the Zephyr and F units seeing what Atlas is doing.
I do not believe Atlas introduction of these sets affects Key at all, bear in mind if delivered within the next year or two a 12 car set from Key would probably fall in the 15K +/- range [truly serious collector level] F units on the other hand might feel some impact although they sold out all their last runs. JMO Unfortunately the quest for the ultimate detailed model continues to push this collectors market ever higher. As an aside I had heard just recently that Key was having some builder problems [talking a very high level of hand built craftsmanship on the part of the builders] There has been nothing out there from Key saying they are shelving these models, I do believe in recent years it has been much more difficult for importers to get models built to these detail levels. just saying!
VGN64 posted:The industry is changing as injection plastic molds are less expensive to do. Time is money so the amount of time spent preparing for a brass model gets higher and higher as the customer demands more exacting rivets, bells and whistles. Judging by the success of Sunset/Golden Gates latest passenger trains and Atlas's Zephyr the world of $800-$1000 passenger cars may be disappearing. I can understand Key shelving the Zephyr and F units seeing what Atlas is doing.
Not sure that Atlas or 3rd Rail are in the same league as Key (or Kohs or MMW) nor are they trying to be.
Atlas is nice (as is 3rd Rail) but they are far from state of the art in accuracy and ultimate fidelity. They can't be at their price point as well as the need to make some compromises to make the models for both the 2 rail and 3 rail markets.
Key/Kohs/MMW are state of the art in accuracy and fidelity and have a price to match it.
With that said, the injection molded kits from San Juan Car Company and most recently the SP GS gondola from Jimmy Booth at Glacier Park Models are state of the art.
http://www.glacierparkmodels.com/ACF_GONS_1.html
At the end of the day it's still the same issue whether brass or plastic. Assembly and painting take time and time is money.
Rule292 posted:..........the SP GS gondola from Jimmy Booth at Glacier Park Models are state of the art.http://www.glacierparkmodels.com/ACF_GONS_1.html
At the end of the day it's still the same issue whether brass or plastic. Assembly and painting take time and time is money.
That might be one of the most detailed kits I've ever assembled and for the money it's very hard to beat. As for time & money...if you don't have a lot of the latter, spending the cost & time on this kit to get a few of these cars is a bargain vs. the comparable brass.
VGN64 posted:The industry is changing as injection plastic molds are less expensive to do. Time is money so the amount of time spent preparing for a brass model gets higher and higher as the customer demands more exacting rivets, bells and whistles. Judging by the success of Sunset/Golden Gates latest passenger trains and Atlas's Zephyr the world of $800-$1000 passenger cars may be disappearing. I can understand Key shelving the Zephyr and F units seeing what Atlas is doing.
Yes, but the brass industry is changing as well (or should be). Prices to produce high end brass models should not reflect the labor intensive craftsmanship as they once were. High end 3D wax printers are available (a nice jewelry quality 3D wax printer runs around $50K) so rapid development of lost wax components is available. A whole labor-taking step of making the rubber mold can be skipped, if you want multiple copies of a part, then just print more wax copies. The wax pattern quality will be better as you do not loose any detail by going from master pattern to rubber mold to wax copy. Now the wax copy is the 3D printed master pattern. Pattern makers now draw the part to the exacting level of detail they desire in 3D software instead of hand crafting a pattern from some construction material, like brass, styrene or wax. MMW's recent posting of their 3D truck renderings are a perfect example of this. The only thing that changes is the skillset and time to produce. Modifications can easily be made to the drawing to match road specific details, as well, without having to remake an entire new pattern from scratch. If the same use of technology can reduce the cost of making an injection molded model, then so too can that same (or similar) technology reduce the cost and time-to-market of making a brass model.
Scott Kay
Austin, TX
Keys website is back !!!!!!!!!!
nw2124 posted:Mark: That is what is said.
By who?
The Key website is back up but it has not been updated in 6 months [no news is no news] JMO
mwb posted:Rule292 posted:..........the SP GS gondola from Jimmy Booth at Glacier Park Models are state of the art.http://www.glacierparkmodels.com/ACF_GONS_1.html
At the end of the day it's still the same issue whether brass or plastic. Assembly and painting take time and time is money.
That might be one of the most detailed kits I've ever assembled and for the money it's very hard to beat. As for time & money...if you don't have a lot of the latter, spending the cost & time on this kit to get a few of these cars is a bargain vs. the comparable brass.
Does the kit price [100.00] include trucks and decals, also are all components plastic [like Red Caboose]?
Scott Kay posted:VGN64 posted:The industry is changing as injection plastic molds are less expensive to do. Time is money so the amount of time spent preparing for a brass model gets higher and higher as the customer demands more exacting rivets, bells and whistles. Judging by the success of Sunset/Golden Gates latest passenger trains and Atlas's Zephyr the world of $800-$1000 passenger cars may be disappearing. I can understand Key shelving the Zephyr and F units seeing what Atlas is doing.
Yes, but the brass industry is changing as well (or should be). Prices to produce high end brass models should not reflect the labor intensive craftsmanship as they once were. High end 3D wax printers are available (a nice jewelry quality 3D wax printer runs around $50K) so rapid development of lost wax components is available. A whole labor-taking step of making the rubber mold can be skipped, if you want multiple copies of a part, then just print more wax copies. The wax pattern quality will be better as you do not loose any detail by going from master pattern to rubber mold to wax copy. Now the wax copy is the 3D printed master pattern. Pattern makers now draw the part to the exacting level of detail they desire in 3D software instead of hand crafting a pattern from some construction material, like brass, styrene or wax. MMW's recent posting of their 3D truck renderings are a perfect example of this. The only thing that changes is the skillset and time to produce. Modifications can easily be made to the drawing to match road specific details, as well, without having to remake an entire new pattern from scratch. If the same use of technology can reduce the cost of making an injection molded model, then so too can that same (or similar) technology reduce the cost and time-to-market of making a brass model.
Scott Kay
Austin, TX
What you are saying is no doubt true today, I suspect due to very low production numbers most of these potential savings are at best very limited, as an example MMW has yet to produce a finished model and must rely on his builder to produce finished painted shells and running gear which is then to be assembled and lighting and power installed here, lots of steps to a finished product. just saying!
hibar posted:VGN64 posted:The industry is changing as injection plastic molds are less expensive to do. Time is money so the amount of time spent preparing for a brass model gets higher and higher as the customer demands more exacting rivets, bells and whistles. Judging by the success of Sunset/Golden Gates latest passenger trains and Atlas's Zephyr the world of $800-$1000 passenger cars may be disappearing. I can understand Key shelving the Zephyr and F units seeing what Atlas is doing.
I do not believe Atlas introduction of these sets affects Key at all, bear in mind if delivered within the next year or two a 12 car set from Key would probably fall in the 15K +/- range [truly serious collector level] F units on the other hand might feel some impact although they sold out all their last runs. JMO Unfortunately the quest for the ultimate detailed model continues to push this collectors market ever higher. As an aside I had heard just recently that Key was having some builder problems [talking a very high level of hand built craftsmanship on the part of the builders] There has been nothing out there from Key saying they are shelving these models, I do believe in recent years it has been much more difficult for importers to get models built to these detail levels. just saying!
As hibar has stated the he heard of Key having builder problems, I am very nervous if the projects I and my customers will get made. In my opinion the Big Boy is a safer bet ordered with Kohs due to The builder problems. Could someone explain about the builder of Key's very detailed Big Boy sample And why the dealer is no longer doing the project. Again I was hoping to see it at Chicago. Stephen
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