Circuit Board / Chip Confusion

Use breakers, not fuses, sized to the load(current, in amps) on each of A-B-C-D throttles as needed or desired. This will keep the whole transformer from shutting down from a derailment on one track and the other trains will keep running.

Fuses & breakers will not prevent the cumulative damage to modern electronics from voltage spikes that occur during derailmants and running the trains.

For that protection, advise your friend that Transient Voltage Suppression is needed. Here are detailed discussions on this topic.

These are great for ultra fast breakers...they can save from melting the wires in the engines and cars.

https://tonystrains.com/produc...ent-circuit-breaker/

The ZW was made in the middle of the last century.   Buy a modern high power (safe) transformer.  If you must use the ZW, do what Bob and Chuck advised.  Very solid advice.

Ponz posted:

...

Would someone please explain, in simple terms, how this would happen?  If a train derails and a short occurs, doesn't all power (juice) stop at the pickups even if the transformer's circuit breaker takes a few seconds to trip?  

Correct.  The electrical short itself between the center (hot) rail and the outer-rail means there is 0 Volts between the two rails.  The harmful transients are caused by the rapid change in current when the short initially occurs and even more so when the short is removed by the breaker/fuse. 

I've posted this video before in different OGR threads showing a surge detector in action.  There are 2 red LEDs.  One flashes when there is a positive surge on the track, the other flashes when there is a negative surge.  The screwdriver is simulating shorts.  So while the screwdriver straddles the rails, the voltage between the rails is 0.  No harm to the electronics from 0 Volts.  It's the brief moment in time when entering and exiting the short where transients occur.  All has to do with energy transfer in electromagnetic fields - very tedious math.  

Since there is no electronics-harming voltage transient across the rails during the short itself, it doesn't matter if the breaker responds to the short in 1 sec or 2 sec.  It's a separate discussion about why you'd want a faster vs. slower breaker.

stan2004 posted:

Ponz posted:

...

Would someone please explain, in simple terms, how this would happen?  If a train derails and a short occurs, doesn't all power (juice) stop at the pickups even if the transformer's circuit breaker takes a few seconds to trip?  

Correct.  The electrical short itself between the center (hot) rail and the outer-rail means there is 0 Volts between the two rails.  The harmful transients are caused by the rapid change in current when the short initially occurs and even more so when the short is removed by the breaker/fuse. 

I've posted this video before in different OGR threads showing a surge detector in action.  There are 2 red LEDs.  One flashes when there is a positive surge on the track, the other flashes when there is a negative surge.  The screwdriver is simulating shorts.  So while the screwdriver straddles the rails, the voltage between the rails is 0.  No harm to the electronics from 0 Volts.  It's the brief moment in time when entering and exiting the short where transients occur.  All has to do with energy transfer in electromagnetic fields - very tedious math.  

Since there is no electronics-harming voltage transient across the rails during the short itself, it doesn't matter if the breaker responds to the short in 1 sec or 2 sec.  It's a separate discussion about why you'd want a faster vs. slower breaker.

 

Thanks Stan.  That was a great explanation. Now this begs a question. Marty, above, as others have suggested, buying a modern transformer. Even if a modern transformer breaker trips much faster than an old ZW wouldn't there still be a rapid change in current when the short initially occurs, as you stated?

I've attached a couple of transient voltage protectors to the common and positive posts on the transformer. So - wouldn't those and an in-line fast-blow fuse, between power and track suffice?

Also - Modern / smart equipment requires 18 volts to the track and the remotes take over from there.  Why would not an old ZW put out the same 18 volts and serve the same purpose regarding modern circuitry bearing equipment?

I'm not trying to be argumentative.  I'm just  trying to completely understand.

Thank you - Ponz

Ponz posted:

 

Even if a modern transformer breaker trips much faster than an old ZW wouldn't there still be a rapid change in current when the short initially occurs, as you stated?

As important, these transients are occurring constantly as the trains traverse the tracks. Not as pronounced as during a derailment short, but the TVS diodes will clamp spikes continuously. The damage to electronic components is cumulative, so the more protection the better.

The reason for the modern circuit breaker for the old ZW is the fact that the stock breaker may not trip at all, and the unit will just sit there cooking until something fries.  The ZW breaker trips rather slowly, and the ones that I've tested only opened at more than 15 amps after a significant delay.  Also, the ZW breaker keeps recycling automatically, IMO that's a very bad thing!  When I have a short that kills the power, I want to look for it before it keeps getting hammered with shots of power.

stan2004 posted:

Ponz posted:

...

Would someone please explain, in simple terms, how this would happen?  If a train derails and a short occurs, doesn't all power (juice) stop at the pickups even if the transformer's circuit breaker takes a few seconds to trip?  

Correct.  The electrical short itself between the center (hot) rail and the outer-rail means there is 0 Volts between the two rails.  The harmful transients are caused by the rapid change in current when the short initially occurs and even more so when the short is removed by the breaker/fuse. 

I've posted this video before in different OGR threads showing a surge detector in action.  There are 2 red LEDs.  One flashes when there is a positive surge on the track, the other flashes when there is a negative surge.  The screwdriver is simulating shorts.  So while the screwdriver straddles the rails, the voltage between the rails is 0.  No harm to the electronics from 0 Volts.  It's the brief moment in time when entering and exiting the short where transients occur.  All has to do with energy transfer in electromagnetic fields - very tedious math.  

Since there is no electronics-harming voltage transient across the rails during the short itself, it doesn't matter if the breaker responds to the short in 1 sec or 2 sec.  It's a separate discussion about why you'd want a faster vs. slower breaker.

 

Stan - Another thought if I may.

Let's say I'm running a LionChief PLUS on one ZW channel and an MTH PS1 on another channel with an in-line fast blow 6amp fuse.  If the LionChief PLUS shorts out, how if at all, would that affect the more susceptible MTH PS1 engine's (circuitry) since it's running on a different channel? 

Anyone - please feel free to chime in.  I appreciate all the feedback I can get.

Thanks - Ponz

Ponz posted:

 

Let's say I'm running a LionChief PLUS on one ZW channel and an MTH PS1 on another channel with an in-line fast blow 6amp fuse.  If the LionChief PLUS shorts out, how if at all, would that affect the more susceptible MTH PS1 engine's (circuitry) since it's running on a different channel? 

There is only one "channel" on your postwar ZW.

There are 4 variable taps on that one channel(transformer secondary), so all trains are running off of the same source.

I installed fast blow 10A fuses inline between my AIU and both my Postwar ZW and had just 1 fuse blow and not effect any of the other circuits ie: all other trains still ran. I would recommend if you use fuses keep a good stock on hand. 

Ponz, I was in your shoes not long ago with respect to transformers. I've been around toy trains all my life and up until recently, thought the Lionel ZW was the be-all-end-all of transformers. I own 5 of them, all completely reconditioned and ready for use--but they will only be used on my layout to power lights, switch machines etc. I finally took Marty's advice and bought a modern transformer, a brand-new MTH Z4000. At around $400.00, it  was money well-spent. You get state-of-the-art protection, and best of all, I think the trains run better. I run both modern and prewar trains in both command and conventional modes, and the operation is much smoother with all my trains--even the old ones. If I were you, I'd go for a modern transformer. Just my $.02. 

John

I too use a post war Lionel transformer and at times with modern electronic engines on one of my loops. I just added a Dallee circuit breaker between the transformer and the track. They are inexpensive, simple and have a re-set button.

https://www.dallee.com/Model-T...ircuit-Breakers.html

One other advantage of a modern transformer: steady power when you push the whistle button. On every ZW I've ever used, there's a burst of power when you push the whistle button, causing the train to speed up. This doesn't happen with the Z4000. You get good, steady power. 

John

RJT posted:

I would recommend if you use fuses keep a good stock on hand. 

I would recommend if you use fuses, switch to breakers.

BlueComet400 posted:

...it  was money well-spent. You get state-of-the-art protection,

 Except for the absence of transient voltage protection.

The TIU has TVS diodes.

Since 2005 I've used primarily AF 30B transformers (S gauge layout), a spike protector by Scott's Odds 'n Ends (no longer available, but still working great) and 7A fast-blow fuses -- one per block and every siding.   Together they have provided and continue to offer solid protection.  However, if I were to do it over today I'd use PSX-AC units by DCC Specialities.   We have them on our club layout and they are fantastic.  Definitely very fast-acting (critical attribute) and resettable.  

PS  Their RRampmeter is also very good, especially if you run DCC, which I do in addition to Legacy and conventional. 

Chuck K posted:

I too use a post war Lionel transformer and at times with modern electronic engines on one of my loops. I just added a Dallee circuit breaker between the transformer and the track. They are inexpensive, simple and have a re-set button.

https://www.dallee.com/Model-T...ircuit-Breakers.html

 

I disagree, in my view they are actually very expensive.

You can get TVS diodes at DigiKey for $0.68 per diode and their shipping is very reasonable.

DigiKey also has the same Potter & Brumfeld circuit breakers used in the item that Chuck K links to:

• 3A breaker is $8.38
• 5A breaker is $5.31
• 8A breaker is $6.00
• 10A breaker is $5.38

You can find these parts at other suppliers, I just happen to use DigiKey because their prices are competitive and their shipping rates are low.

Ponz, if your PW transformer is in good shape physically, in good working order, you protect it with properly rated thermal breakers, and you protect your engine's circuit boards with TVS diodes, you should be fine, and you won't be wasting money.

If you must have the PCB with the terminal strip, a PCB from OSH Park would be around $1/ea, maybe less.  I buy the Euro-style terminal blocks in bulk on eBay for peanuts, and as you say, the 1500W TVS is around 50 cents for 25 or more, always useful to have these around.

Also, with a little searching, you can have even cheaper breakers.

5A P&B Panel Mount CB, $2.47

These also come in 8A and 10A, also below $3/ea.

Great info. But what amp rating is recommended? GRJ and Matt lists 5A, 8A and 10A. Different ratings for different applications, such as one rating for track power a different rating for switch machines, another for building lights/accessories?

RAY

Personally, I'd recommend 8A for tracks and 5A for sidings.  If you protect individual accessories, I suspect a couple of amps of capacity is more than sufficient.

My small 74" x 38", conventional layout is protected by 3A for track power and 2A for accessories (several uncoupling/operating track sections and eight switches). But, I am only running one train at a time.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

If you must have the PCB with the terminal strip, a PCB from OSH Park would be around $1/ea, maybe less.  I buy the Euro-style terminal blocks in bulk on eBay for peanuts, and as you say, the 1500W TVS is around 50 cents for 25 or more, always useful to have these around.

Also, with a little searching, you can have even cheaper breakers.

5A P&B Panel Mount CB, $2.47

These also come in 8A and 10A, also below $3/ea.

I noticed that the P&B W57 series are only rated for AC voltage, whereas the P&B W58 series is rated for AC & DC. I assume that that accounts for the increased size and price. But at the risk of stating the obvious, since we're discussing PW AC transformers, the DC voltage rating, or lack thereof, doesn't matter.

I doubt the lack of a DC rating is an issue, I can assure you that DC heats the bimetallic strip just like AC.   The DC rating is really the contact gap as AC is self-quenching, and DC is not.  Also, if you look at the actual spec sheet, you'll find this...

Maximum Operating Voltages: 50VDC; 250VAC, 50/60 Hz.

BlueComet400 posted:

Ponz, I was in your shoes not long ago with respect to transformers. I've been around toy trains all my life and up until recently, thought the Lionel ZW was the be-all-end-all of transformers. I own 5 of them, all completely reconditioned and ready for use--but they will only be used on my layout to power lights, switch machines etc. I finally took Marty's advice and bought a modern transformer, a brand-new MTH Z4000. At around $400.00, it  was money well-spent. You get state-of-the-art protection, and best of all, I think the trains run better. I run both modern and prewar trains in both command and conventional modes, and the operation is much smoother with all my trains--even the old ones. If I were you, I'd go for a modern transformer. Just my $.02. 

John

I'm unsure what protection a Z4k offers that is much better than a 50 year old ZW.  Not to derail the conversation too far, but other than having a somewhat reasonable mechanical breaker as opposed to a very slow and over rated one there is no difference in a ZW and Z4k from the point of view of an engine.  Both will equally fry the electronics under the same circumstances.  When someone says "Modern Transformer" I assume they mean a current generation Lionel product with either fast acting electronic breakers (such as the PH180) or electronic current fold back protection. (Such as the CW-80)  

As a side on breakers, it's advisable to chose a breaker that is rated for about 80% of the current you want a fast trip at.  Ex, if you want the breaker to trip (nearly) instantly at 10 amps, you should use a 7 or 8 amp breaker.  

As for TVS, these are most effective the closer they are to what you are trying to protect.  Placing them on the transformer is better than nothing, but the ideal location would actually be inside each locomotive, so that any spike from the track will be clamped before getting to the engine's electronics.  Barring that it is a good idea to place one at each place feeders are attached to the track, as well as near any inductive loads including switches and uncouplers.  The idea is to protect the sensitive electronics , not the transformer.  

On the other hand the circuit breaker in any transformer is there to protect the transformer, not your trains or wiring.  The electronic breakers in modern Lionel products provide protection for your wire and such as well, but that isn't their primary purpose.  

Tons of information here.  I need to review all opinions, digest and attempt to make an informed decision, decisions, decisions...

Ponz

JohnGaltLine posted:

BlueComet400 posted:

Ponz, I was in your shoes not long ago with respect to transformers. I've been around toy trains all my life and up until recently, thought the Lionel ZW was the be-all-end-all of transformers. I own 5 of them, all completely reconditioned and ready for use--but they will only be used on my layout to power lights, switch machines etc. I finally took Marty's advice and bought a modern transformer, a brand-new MTH Z4000. At around $400.00, it  was money well-spent. You get state-of-the-art protection, and best of all, I think the trains run better. I run both modern and prewar trains in both command and conventional modes, and the operation is much smoother with all my trains--even the old ones. If I were you, I'd go for a modern transformer. Just my $.02. 

John

I'm unsure what protection a Z4k offers that is much better than a 50 year old ZW.  Not to derail the conversation too far, but other than having a somewhat reasonable mechanical breaker as opposed to a very slow and over rated one there is no difference in a ZW and Z4k from the point of view of an engine.  Both will equally fry the electronics under the same circumstances.  When someone says "Modern Transformer" I assume they mean a current generation Lionel product with either fast acting electronic breakers (such as the PH180) or electronic current fold back protection. (Such as the CW-80)  

As a side on breakers, it's advisable to chose a breaker that is rated for about 80% of the current you want a fast trip at.  Ex, if you want the breaker to trip (nearly) instantly at 10 amps, you should use a 7 or 8 amp breaker.  

As for TVS, these are most effective the closer they are to what you are trying to protect.  Placing them on the transformer is better than nothing, but the ideal location would actually be inside each locomotive, so that any spike from the track will be clamped before getting to the engine's electronics.  Barring that it is a good idea to place one at each place feeders are attached to the track, as well as near any inductive loads including switches and uncouplers.  The idea is to protect the sensitive electronics , not the transformer.  

On the other hand the circuit breaker in any transformer is there to protect the transformer, not your trains or wiring.  The electronic breakers in modern Lionel products provide protection for your wire and such as well, but that isn't their primary purpose.  

Does anyone ever put a TVS inside their locomotives?  That sounds labor intensive.

Ponz

Ponz posted:

Does anyone ever put a TVS inside their locomotives?  That sounds labor intensive.

If I'm already in there working on it, I'll stick one in.  I don't take them apart just to install a TVS, that would be silly.

Pat at Pat's Trains said that a Z1000 can actually reset or unscramble a circuit board or chip by depressing both horn and bell buttons simultaneously.  Is that true?  If so - that would be the only reason to upgrade a transformer in addition to having both buttons / functions.  Is that so?

Ponz

One more thing please!

I was told, somewhere, that a LionChief PLUS is not susceptible to frying from shorts like an MTH PS1 engine.  Is that true?

Ponz 

Ponz posted:

Pat at Pat's Trains said that a Z1000 can actually reset or unscramble a circuit board or chip by depressing both horn and bell buttons simultaneously.  Is that true?  If so - that would be the only reason to upgrade a transformer in addition to having both buttons / functions.  Is that so?

If there is damage to a board, pressing whistle or bell buttons will do nothing to fix it.  The Z1000 does not do anything special and should not be considered a "modern transformer" in the same sense as those mentioned above that offer electronic circuit protection.  As for doing a reset of a glitched PS1 board, I doubt it would work, as the Z1000 produces a so called "chopped" wave output which PS1 engines don't tend to work correctly with.  as far as other generations or product lines, someone else would have to chime in on if this transformer is any good for anything.  As personal opinion, the Z1000 is only useful to folks running conventional engines on small layouts.  There are much better choices for other uses.  

Ponz posted:

I was told, somewhere, that a LionChief PLUS is not susceptible to frying from shorts like an MTH PS1 engine.  Is that true?

In the several LionChief and LionChief Plus engines I'v taken apart, there is nothing build in that would protect the electronics.  That said, all of the electronics in PS2/3, TMCC/Legacy, and LionChief are less susceptible to problems that the Proto 1 boards were.  Proto 1, however is a unique case where the boards could be scrambled by sudden power changes and spikes.  in other systems there isn't a risk of this "scrambling" but instead of actually damaging the parts.  The electronics in Lion Chief engines is fairly simple and robust, with a power circuit that may help filter out some spikes, but there is nothing specifically designed for that purpose, so it's a good idea to add some protection.  

Ponz posted:

One more thing please!

I was told, somewhere, that a LionChief PLUS is not susceptible to frying from shorts like an MTH PS1 engine.  Is that true?

Ponz 

HORSE....  Well, something like that.   They're just as likely to suffer from electronic failures and any other model train.

OK guys - thanks for your time and all the input.

Here's my takeaway from this and PLEASE correct me if I'm mistaken:

• Any  more modern transformer(s) other than my older ZWs will not provide any further engine protection, even considering I upgraded the ZW's diodes.
• The only advantage of a Z1000 or Z4000 over a ZW is a whistle and  bell button
• Once a short occurs, regardless of any protection, the surge/short inevitably reaches the engine.
•  Additional inline protection might  assist the transformer to trip faster than the transformer's circuit breaker.
• An inline circuit breaker is better than a fuse.
• Inline protection protects the transformer and not  the equipment

So - I'm wondering what the point is for additional protection.

Ponz

You’re taking too much stock in all these comments. Many advice givers are  interested in saving upfront money. A faster electronic breaker will definitely protect equipment from damage. Modern transformers generally have this. Old ZWs need add on breakers, preferably fast electronic breakers. This one fits that requirement. The psx1-ac. You need one for each separate circuit.

https://tonystrains.com/produc...ent-circuit-breaker/

It will mostly prevent melting of wiring inside the equipment and prevent welding the wheels to the rails...and pitting the track surface and wheels. It also protects the transformer. It trips in a few thousands of a second. The tripping amperage can be set to different values. It also has a transient voltage protection.

cjack posted:

You’re taking too much stock in all these comments. Many advice givers are  interested in saving upfront money. A faster electronic breaker will definitely protect equipment from damage. Modern transformers generally have this. Old ZWs need add on breakers, preferably fast electronic breakers. This one fits that requirement. The psx1-ac. You need one for each separate circuit.

https://tonystrains.com/produc...ent-circuit-breaker/

It will mostly prevent melting of wiring inside the equipment and prevent welding the wheels to the rails...and pitting the track surface and wheels. It also protects the transformer. It trips in a few thousands of a second. The tripping amperage can be set to different values. It also has a transient voltage protection.

 

Chuck - Will it prevent engine circuitry frying or chip scrambling?

Ponz

 Is there really anything that will 'guarantee' no shorts, spikes or anything else that will take out, fry or scramble a trains electronics? Stan, GRJ, JGL, cjack, Adrain, or any of the other much more knowledgeable folks here may be able to answer that one, but I can't. It's a good question though. It has been discussed here several times, however I haven't really taken anything discussed as a 'guaranteed' protection, but there are certainly some things that were discussed in the threads that can provide a lot of prevention. I suppose everyone looks at this a little differently though?

Personally, I am a big fan of the PSX-ACs, PH-180s and some TVS diodes placed here and there. That is what I have on my layout and I feel comfortable with it. In about 5 years or so now, I have not fried any electronic boards. Not saying it can't happen, but I have been quite pleased with the results so far. I have only Legacy and PS3 engines (1 is PS2) so I have no idea about the PS1 stuff?

Also, I would rather spend money up front to try and prevent replacing a trains electronics. Four PSX-ACs cost less than replacing the boards in just one PS3 or Legacy engine, even more so if you don't feel comfortable doing the repair yourself and take it to someone else. 

Possibly. But the tvs on the psx1 is on its input, so it probably protects the psx1 mostly. I add a single tvs diode to every output as well. A fast trip to avoid sustained arcing will also avoid sustained high voltage transients. There are no guarantees as to whether the engine electronics can be absolutely protected. It’s just that you have a much better chance at protection with a sensitive and fast trip. And a tvs across the circuit to the tracks at least, and in the engine if you’ve occasion to take it apart ever.

Ponz posted:

OK guys - thanks for your time and all the input.
Here's my takeaway from this and PLEASE correct me if I'm mistaken:
• Any  more modern transformer(s) other than my older ZWs will not provide any further engine protection, even considering I upgraded the ZW's diodes.

Not exactly. Any relativly new transformer, say one produced in the last 20 years (z4000, z1000, etc.) has a much better and faster breaker than the post war transformers. "Upgrading" to any of these will help protect your layout and engines from some damage that can be caused by shorts such as melting feeder wires or the wiring connecting pick-up rollers inside the engines. It's not 100% protection for these things, but it is much better than running a post war transformer with no added components.

• The only advantage of a Z1000 or Z4000 over a ZW is a whistle and  bell button

The z4k offers additional functionality for Protosound(1) engines which makes it much easier to access the features of these engines. You can find more info about that starting on page 6 of the z4000's manual.  From a practical stand point the z4k is a very good transformer if you have PS1 engines and wish to use their advanced features often on a conventional layout.

The z1000, on the other hand is a poor choice for Protosound(1) engines. It is fine for almost all other O-gauge trains, but the form of the output signal from this transformer is misinterpreted by PS1 engines and will not allow them out of the reset state in most cases. There are many other transformers that have this issue as well. You can search the forum for many threads discussing so called "chopped wave form transformers" Any chopped wave transformer will have issues with most PS1 engines.

• Once a short occurs, regardless of any protection, the surge/short inevitably reaches the engine.

Not exactly true. Electricity typically follows the path of least resistance. Often this can be through an engine's circuits, but not necessarily. Note that it's resistance, not necessarily physical distance. This is why it is useful to have many TVS on your layout, think of them as short cuts for the spikes to take, if the spike hits a TVS it will be drained there rather than continuing to your expensive locomotive.

•  Additional inline protection might  assist the transformer to trip faster than the transformer's circuit breaker.

Additional circuit breakers should be used to, more or less, replace the transformer's circuit breaker. If the transformer's breaker trips, the additional breakers are doing nothing at all to help you. Instead additional breakers should be sized to the lowest current rating that will allow your most demanding train to run. Thermal breakers, some good choices are linked by others above, will provide a reasonably quick response that should protect the wires from melting in your engines. Sizing these in the 5 to 8 amp range is probably most useful for most people.

• An inline circuit breaker is better than a fuse.

Only in that it is resettable. It is a one time cost and is quick and easy to reset. In the long run breakers are certainly less expensive and less hassle. There are many different types of circuit breakers, but the ones commonly talked about here (Thermal breakers) do not offer any better protection than a fast blow fuse. Magnetic or electronic breakers work much faster when there is a short than thermal breakers, but are also much more expensive. Electronic breakers may protect the electronics in your engines better than thermal breakers.

• Inline protection protects the transformer and not  the equipment

Additional circuit breakers of a lower rating serve to protect your equipment. The breaker inside the transformer is there to protect the transformer from damage. you add breakers to protect your layout and trains.

 
So - I'm wondering what the point is for additional protection.

As stated above, the breaker in a transformer's primary purpose is to protect the transformer from damage. On most newer transformers they will only offer marginal protection to your trains, only helping prevent the damage from serious short circuits. Post-war transformer breakers won't even do this, offering no protection to your trains or layout at all.

Adding TVS (transient voltage suppressors) to you layout provides protection from voltage spiles that can damage the electronics in modern engines. You may get away without them without any harm to your engines, but with them being so inexpensive, there is no point in taking chances. TVS are there to protect the sensitive electronics in modern engines.

Adding circuit breakers provide protection to you layout, engines and lighted cars by cutting power if there is a short circuit that would otherwise damage them, such as from a derailment.

There are many options for breakers. Inexpensive thermal breakers are a good firs step. If you are running relatively inexpensive equipment these are likely all you need. They will make sure you don't melt the wires in your stuff if you derail.
Electronic breakers offer a bit more protection as they can very quickly react to short circuits, and these will protect the electronics much better than thermal breakers since they trigger on a time scale where electronic components may not be damaged. You can buy stand alone adjustable electronic breakers, such as the PSX-AC, which by all accounts are a very good product, or if you use the Lionel PH-180, these transformers have a very good, though not adjustable, electronic breaker built in. I would recommend using electronic breakers if you are running expensive modern engines or equipment you can not afford to replace or repair.

In summary, if you already have post-war transformers, adding TVS throughout your layout, and 5 to 7 amp thermal breakers to each transformer output will provide adequate protection in most cases. If you need control of Protosound(1) engines, the Z4000 may be a good choice, but otherwise it doesn't offer much besides a bell button for other engines. (bell buttons cost like $20 from lionel, or you can make your own for a couple dollars.) If you are running a command control layout, Lionel's PH180 is the gold standard, and offers the most bang for your buck.
I know it's a lot of information, but hopefully it's useful.

 

 

 

JGL

JohnGaltLine posted:

Ponz posted:

OK guys - thanks for your time and all the input.
Here's my takeaway from this and PLEASE correct me if I'm mistaken:
• Any  more modern transformer(s) other than my older ZWs will not provide any further engine protection, even considering I upgraded the ZW's diodes.

Not exactly. Any relativly new transformer, say one produced in the last 20 years (z4000, z1000, etc.) has a much better and faster breaker than the post war transformers. "Upgrading" to any of these will help protect your layout and engines from some damage that can be caused by shorts such as melting feeder wires or the wiring connecting pick-up rollers inside the engines. It's not 100% protection for these things, but it is much better than running a post war transformer with no added components.

• The only advantage of a Z1000 or Z4000 over a ZW is a whistle and  bell button

The z4k offers additional functionality for Protosound(1) engines which makes it much easier to access the features of these engines. You can find more info about that starting on page 6 of the z4000's manual.  From a practical stand point the z4k is a very good transformer if you have PS1 engines and wish to use their advanced features often on a conventional layout.

The z1000, on the other hand is a poor choice for Protosound(1) engines. It is fine for almost all other O-gauge trains, but the form of the output signal from this transformer is misinterpreted by PS1 engines and will not allow them out of the reset state in most cases. There are many other transformers that have this issue as well. You can search the forum for many threads discussing so called "chopped wave form transformers" Any chopped wave transformer will have issues with most PS1 engines.

• Once a short occurs, regardless of any protection, the surge/short inevitably reaches the engine.

Not exactly true. Electricity typically follows the path of least resistance. Often this can be through an engine's circuits, but not necessarily. Note that it's resistance, not necessarily physical distance. This is why it is useful to have many TVS on your layout, think of them as short cuts for the spikes to take, if the spike hits a TVS it will be drained there rather than continuing to your expensive locomotive.

•  Additional inline protection might  assist the transformer to trip faster than the transformer's circuit breaker.

Additional circuit breakers should be used to, more or less, replace the transformer's circuit breaker. If the transformer's breaker trips, the additional breakers are doing nothing at all to help you. Instead additional breakers should be sized to the lowest current rating that will allow your most demanding train to run. Thermal breakers, some good choices are linked by others above, will provide a reasonably quick response that should protect the wires from melting in your engines. Sizing these in the 5 to 8 amp range is probably most useful for most people.

• An inline circuit breaker is better than a fuse.

Only in that it is resettable. It is a one time cost and is quick and easy to reset. In the long run breakers are certainly less expensive and less hassle. There are many different types of circuit breakers, but the ones commonly talked about here (Thermal breakers) do not offer any better protection than a fast blow fuse. Magnetic or electronic breakers work much faster when there is a short than thermal breakers, but are also much more expensive. Electronic breakers may protect the electronics in your engines better than thermal breakers.

• Inline protection protects the transformer and not  the equipment

Additional circuit breakers of a lower rating serve to protect your equipment. The breaker inside the transformer is there to protect the transformer from damage. you add breakers to protect your layout and trains.

 
So - I'm wondering what the point is for additional protection.

As stated above, the breaker in a transformer's primary purpose is to protect the transformer from damage. On most newer transformers they will only offer marginal protection to your trains, only helping prevent the damage from serious short circuits. Post-war transformer breakers won't even do this, offering no protection to your trains or layout at all.

Adding TVS (transient voltage suppressors) to you layout provides protection from voltage spiles that can damage the electronics in modern engines. You may get away without them without any harm to your engines, but with them being so inexpensive, there is no point in taking chances. TVS are there to protect the sensitive electronics in modern engines.

Adding circuit breakers provide protection to you layout, engines and lighted cars by cutting power if there is a short circuit that would otherwise damage them, such as from a derailment.

There are many options for breakers. Inexpensive thermal breakers are a good firs step. If you are running relatively inexpensive equipment these are likely all you need. They will make sure you don't melt the wires in your stuff if you derail.
Electronic breakers offer a bit more protection as they can very quickly react to short circuits, and these will protect the electronics much better than thermal breakers since they trigger on a time scale where electronic components may not be damaged. You can buy stand alone adjustable electronic breakers, such as the PSX-AC, which by all accounts are a very good product, or if you use the Lionel PH-180, these transformers have a very good, though not adjustable, electronic breaker built in. I would recommend using electronic breakers if you are running expensive modern engines or equipment you can not afford to replace or repair.

In summary, if you already have post-war transformers, adding TVS throughout your layout, and 5 to 7 amp thermal breakers to each transformer output will provide adequate protection in most cases. If you need control of Protosound(1) engines, the Z4000 may be a good choice, but otherwise it doesn't offer much besides a bell button for other engines. (bell buttons cost like $20 from lionel, or you can make your own for a couple dollars.) If you are running a command control layout, Lionel's PH180 is the gold standard, and offers the most bang for your buck.
I know it's a lot of information, but hopefully it's useful.

 

 

 

JGL

John:

I appreciate the time you took to address my questions and concerns.

That was an interesting read. Can I assume that it all applies to the PS1 Stem Loco and tender I will be receiving? 

• Can I run an MTH PS1 on loop one and either a LionChief PLUS or Lionel conventional engine on loop two?  
• If an engine derails that's pretty darn close to the engine. I don't see much of a shortcut there.
• An inline circuit breaker will not halt/squelch/lessen or negate the initial  short that occurred at the engine's pick-up roller. It will merely shorten the length of the short - correct?

I'd like to get away with using my old refurbished ZWs if I can. 

With an old ZW will the engine:

• Emit crew talk when in neutral?
• Chug when moving?
• Smoke?
• Sound either the bell or the whistle depending upon the polarity of the leads?

This turning into an expensive hobby!

Ponz

Ponz posted:

With an old ZW will the engine:

• Emit crew talk when in neutral? - Depends upon model - usually crew talk can be triggered by specific whistle/horn control patterns.
• Chug when moving? - Essentially universally
• Smoke? - Essentially universally
• Sound either the bell or the whistle depending upon the polarity of the leads? - Essentially universally 

bmoran4 posted:

Ponz posted:

With an old ZW will the engine:

• Emit crew talk when in neutral? - Depends upon model - usually crew talk can be triggered by specific whistle/horn control patterns.
• Chug when moving? - Essentially universally
• Smoke? - Essentially universally
• Sound either the bell or the whistle depending upon the polarity of the leads? - Essentially universally 

Thanks.  I don't think I could ask for more.  Is there much more with a PS1 Steamer? 

With a z4000, can I run an MTH PS1 on loop one and either a LionChief PLUS or Lionel conventional engine on loop two?