Update - MTH Climax Speciality Freight Set

I'm not sure why it says that.  The individual Climax locomotives MTH as offered--past and present--are listed for O42 minimum.  It better be O42 minimum or I'm going to end up with a costly shelf queen because I do have that set on order.

Could be, I suppose, that the engine is okay with O42 but the cars need O72 (short-coupled?).  That would be awfully strange, to say the least, but these days "strange" is something of the norm.

Justrains of Delaware reports the set must be run on O72 minimum. I sent an email to MTH for further clarification. The engine and the cars when run separately don't require O72 minimum so I'm wondering if there is a misprint on the MTH website. I will report back after I receive an answer. 

I have the 20-3039-1 climax and the operation manual says operates on 031 greater. Granted I only run it on my 072/080 at home but is is a very small engine and dont see why it wont run on 042

Steve

You might be able to run the engine by itself on 042 but connecting the cars may give the problems.

I had a set of 21 inch passenger cars that would run on 042 curves with an SD-45 or equivalent size engine pulling them. A GP-9 or GP-35 would have derailment problems with 042 curves, 060 curves or higher would work with a GP-9, as the couplers needed extra room to manage the curves.

Lee Fritz

Has to be a misprint, if you look at the locomotive from the set here are the features. http://www.mthtrains.com/content/20-3443-1

Features

My Climax runs on 42 curves with zero problems. At times, it is pulling up to 12 logging cars. It has been a great runner.

Bob

Thank you for contacting MTH Electric Trains.  We appreciate your interest in our products.  This set requires O-72 curves.

Please let me know if you have any questions or if there is anything else I can help you with.

Thank you,

Kirstin Martinez

MTH Electric Trains

Over the years there have been a number of posts by folks who have been blind-sided by this large diameter requirement. Why model and market an engine design that was originally intended for operation on poorly laid track with sharp curves and yet the model requires 0-42 and larger curves??

Modelers with medium or larger sized layouts might like to have a logging branch on the side of a hill, maybe with a switchback or two. Can't do much twisting and turning when 0-72 curves are required. Requiring Big Boy curves for a little woods engine is totally contradictory. Or maybe we like the "monkey motion" and uniqueness of these specialty engines. Or maybe we would like to have a small engine that fits our modest layout.

The manufacturers  don't hesitate to take artistic license on other engines. Why not adapt the design of these logging engine models so they will operate - with cars in tow - on 0-31/36 curves?

I know other gauges/scales are available. But maybe we want to avoid two distinctly different operating systems, and stick with operating systems that we understand and that will work across a three rail layout.

Shame on the manufacturers for selling small engines with these large diameter track requirements.

They must not have a clue what they are doing in Columbia. How can the cars that make the set be rated at 031 and the engine itself in the same catalog as the set is rated at 042 can the set be 072? I wouldn't order one period, who knows which is right and which is wrong and what the thing will actually run on. What is the problem manufacturers have with making these small engines not run on smaller curves? Look at the problem with Lionel Legacy Shay , now the Climax from MTH. Tsk tsk shame on both manufacturers.

  Lee, are you serious???  I can't even imagine 18" cars navigating an O-42 curve, and I winced when I saw someone post pics of the Atlas-O 21" CZ cars on an O-72 curve!!!  Why do people do this??? 

Something doesn't sound right about this response.  I could be completely wrong, and I'll stand corrected if I am.  But this sounds like someone read the specs on the website and responded with the same info.  Just doesn't sound very authoritative to me at all.

Now if someone indicated that they test-ran the set in Columbia and found that O-42 and O-54 curves generated trouble with the set, and then found that O-72 was the absolute minimum that wouldn't cause trouble, I might believe it.  Even at that though, this is a logging locomotive with associated rolling stock for gosh sakes, and we'd EXPECT logging branch lines to have sharp curves.   Call me a doubting Thomas, but I do not believe the response you received from MTH is correct.

David

That's my take on it, as well.  Sounds like a canned response and not one given by someone who can actually provide the "why" of the discrepancy in the catalog listings (O42 for locomotive; O72 for set).  Seems very strange to have a logging locomotive and logging cars require O72 curves.

Allan,

Being the Editor-in-Chief of OGR, you should have an inside line to MTH. Why don't you call them yourself and clear this thing up?

Because we are poor and don't have the space to have nice O100+ curves like some of you.  I run all my stuff at the min (And in some cases smaller.  I have run my K-Line Big Boy on O27!) because to me the most important thing is to play with these toys.  Getting anything even semi prototypical is way last on my list.  I buy my trains to play with them, and play we do.

Now on topic, the O72 does seem weird.  Maybe it is the combination of the cars and the locomotive that make this.  Could be the cars are too light and the rear coupler on the loco stiff so that it pulls the cars off of the track.  I have this problem with my Lionel Cascade Range logging set.  It's rated and even includes O36 track, but my little Dockside will pull cars off of the track on even O48 track because of the way the rear coupler arm is attached to the body.  I've even had to replace it because out cats broke it, and the new coupler arm has the same problem.No matter what I've tried, it still catches and just doesn't like to pivot, so it pulls light cars (like the ones it came with) off of the track.  Makes switching with a switching engine rather difficult.

Sorry if I hit a nerve there, sinclair.  I think it's great that you're having fun playing with these toys.  They are, after all, just toys -- no matter how detailed they may appear.  There... that will probably hit another nerve with the scale crowd for sure.

Seriously though... my question was more of a rhetorical comment, because Lionel and MTH make 15" passenger cars along with smaller locomotives and freight rolling stock that look MUCH more "at home" on the smaller-radius curves.  And those items tend to even be more "price-friendly".  So I've always been puzzled when I see folks paying premium $$$ trying to shoe-horn today's "scale-sized" equipment onto the more modest sized layouts.  That's all.  No need to get touchy about it. 

Now... we return back to your regularly scheduled programing. 

David

Guess I woke up on the wrong side of the bed this morning.

Some of us still like the detail of the scale cars, even if we can't run them on track that does them "justice."  Big Boys are my favorite locomotive, and always have been as long as I can remember.  I don't know why, just something about them has always drawn me to them.  I'm hoping to get one of the new Lionel ones because of all the features and because of how good it'll look, but it'll probably never see anything bigger than O72 curves. 

Another aspect of this issue are the product reviews published by OGR and others.

Testing an engine as a stand-alone product is not realistic. While not all conceivable combinations can be evaluated, a thorough product review should include pulling a train of appropriate cars through combinations of straights, curves and switches as specified by the manufacturer and in configurations which might be found on layouts.

These added tests would possibly identify for the potential customer issues related to coupler swing, drive wheel tracking and pilot and trail truck swing clearances. Or show that no issues were identified during the review.

And most importantly, publish the findings accurately - good or bad. To do so would serve notice to manufacturers of their need to improve their proofing of published data, as well as to pay closer attention to design details that affect operation.

You'll note, boys and girls, that the online MTH product description (also linked to in today's MTH weekly newsletter) for the new Climax Set has now been revised a bit.   

Good work!   Operates On O-42 Curves

That makes a lot more sense.

By the way, I can't take any credit for the revised/updated description, but maybe the folks who posted on this thread can.  

Picked up my set today from Trainland. Pictures do not do it justice! The set is beautiful! Now, about those logs; hard to get in place. I was thinking of using hot glue on the logs and then securing with the chains. What did others do?

Jim M...????

I don't see what I'm looking for but thank you.

Update...I secured the logs together with glue dots and it made the whole process much easier to handle!