Comparing Lionel Smithsonian, Williams Crown Edition, (2024) release MTH Electric Trains Premier and (2023) release Lionel Legacy Dryfuss Locomotives

I agree..

Thanks guys - nice post

Which shade of gray is correct for "as built/new" appearance?

@BenLMaggi posted:

Which shade of gray is correct for "as built/new" appearance?

I’d have to argue the latest MTH release would be the absolute closest to “as delivered” ……When new, the Dreyfuss was painted with a lacquer. I doubt it was buffed to a ruby mirror finish, but it surely had some gloss to it. Getting a level of gloss to scale is very hard to do. Most locomotives were painted in some level of gloss when new. It’s just the accepted norm for dull, flat or satin finishes we accept in the model railroad world as correct.

Pat

Nice comparison.

At least Lionel provided some tape to put over your eyes!

Interesting topic.  I remember controversy in the 90's about the Lionel Smithsonian and the Williams being built by the same contract manufacturer.

Lou N

@Lou N posted:

Interesting topic.  I remember controversy in the 90's about the Lionel Smithsonian and the Williams being built by the same contract manufacturer.

Lou N

Indeed they were!….Lionel opted for a better gear box and a Pittman, and Williams cheapened out with a Mabuchi motor, a crappy gear box, and few modest less details. Otherwise, they’re sisters. The Williams Masterpiece is the poor man’s Smithsonian

Pat

Pat, there was a Williams at our Asheville regional show back in March with no box (I think) and they wanted $700.  I think they took it home. It was pretty nice overall however.

@c.sam posted:

Pat, there was a Williams at our Asheville regional show back in March with no box (I think) and they wanted $700.  I think they took it home. It was pretty nice overall however.

They don’t pop up as often as they used too, but IIRC, 400-500 was the norm,……of course with the flood of command equipped Dreyfuss engines on the market, a conventional engine takes a back seat …..

Pat

How difficult is it to upgrade the Smithsonian model to command control, either with TMCC using ERR or with DCS using Proto 3?

@Ready-to-Run Mark posted:

How difficult is it to upgrade the Smithsonian model to command control, either with TMCC using ERR or with DCS using Proto 3?

No harder than any other brass engine. DCS would be easier as there is no antenna issue. TMCC could be done too. Usual solution is to isolate the tender shell from frame  though you might get away with just a wire under the coal load. Small coal load though.

Pete

@harmonyards posted:

Indeed they were!….Lionel opted for a better gear box and a Pittman, and Williams cheapened out with a Mabuchi motor, a crappy gear box, and few modest less details. Otherwise, they’re sisters. The Williams Masterpiece is the poor man’s Smithsonian

Pat

Pat,

Who was the CM?  I know it wasn't Ajin because I was on my way to Korea to see them and the passenger in the seat next to my was Kohs.

Lou N

There's a review in the just issued current issue of OGR by Eric Siegel of the Lionel Dreyfuss.  He liked it, but issued a paragraph long caveat about the light gray paint job.    

@Lou N posted:

Pat,

Who was the CM?  I know it wasn't Ajin because I was on my way to Korea to see them and the passenger in the seat next to my was Kohs.

Lou N

Both the Smithsonian & the Williams are Samhongsa built. However, I want to say the Smithsonian cars were made by one of Samhongsa’s subordinates…….

Pat

The only thing that is missing is the early 2000's version of the Lionel Dreyfuss 28084. I would love to know how that compares in with all of these, even though it technically the MTH version , right? Wondering moreso on the essentials like colors and striping is really what I mean.

@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

The only thing that is missing is the early 2000's version of the Lionel Dreyfuss 28084. I would love to know how that compares in with all of these, even though it technically the MTH version , right? Wondering moreso on the essentials like colors and striping is really what I mean.

Dave, the 28084 is the odd man out. It shares its mechanics with 28072 & the 38041. All three of those locomotives have bolt on drivers, & Pittman power. They have more in common construction wise to a 700E than a MTH engine. With that being said, the 28084’s color is danger close to the Smithsonian…..

Pat.

Danger close. TMCC Dreyfuss next to a 2016 MTH car. 2016 and 2024 MTH colors are very close.

Pete

Recently there was another auction on a yet another Smithsonian three rail. I'm still not willing to bite on any offerings of them even if the price is low and I have the money. I would imagine it would be a little bit of an easier task to get one of the other versions and have someone modify it to whatever standards it should be.

Currently though, I have yet to pick up the two new Legacy versions I ordered, which when there is time will make the trip to The Harmon Yards Shops, but that is a while away yet.

Regardless of what version we all have, as long as the colors and stripes are right, I'd imagine we'd all be happy folks knowing that it is on(or dang near) the button.

@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

The only thing that is missing is the early 2000's version of the Lionel Dreyfuss 28084. I would love to know how that compares in with all of these, even though it technically the MTH version , right? Wondering moreso on the essentials like colors and striping is really what I mean.

Was it part of the MTH suit?  I was 'out of trains' during that period for several years and have only read bits & pieces over time. A friend in AL has one and it's really nice but the 2 chuffs from that era bothers me now. Easy fix yes. Time to do so...

Trainz has one listed for $939 I think it is.   With prices on the new ones getting a little lower, who knows?

@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

Recently there was another auction on a yet another Smithsonian three rail. I'm still not willing to bite on any offerings of them even if the price is low and I have the money. I would imagine it would be a little bit of an easier task to get one of the other versions and have someone modify it to whatever standards it should be.

Currently though, I have yet to pick up the two new Legacy versions I ordered, which when there is time will make the trip to The Harmon Yards Shops, but that is a while away yet.

Regardless of what version we all have, as long as the colors and stripes are right, I'd imagine we'd all be happy folks knowing that it is on(or dang near) the button.

IMO, the Smithsonian is a bit of a PITA to tame with cruise. It has a very unique drive train that uses a lot of inertia power to keep it rolling when the power is cut in conventional……in conventional, the Smithsonian will roll quite a distance when the power is cut completely off. So it gets a little bananas when anything back EMF is employed for cruise. Nothing horrible, but you have to learn to override the quirk. When you throttle down from say 30 mph, the inertia drive is carrying her, but the back EMF is trying to do its job too, …..some might say it’s fine, but it’s definitely a noticeable a quirk as the inertia and the back EMF are fighting to do the same job, …..it’s like one thinks it can do it better than the other,………The Williams Masterpiece doesn’t have that feature, but it’s got its own set of challenges with a crappy gear box ……😉

Pat

@c.sam posted:

Was it part of the MTH suit?  I was 'out of trains' during that period for several years and have only read bits & pieces over time. A friend in AL has one and it's really nice but the 2 chuffs from that era bothers me now. Easy fix yes. Time to do so...

Trainz has one listed for $939 I think it is.   With prices on the new ones getting a little lower, who knows?

Correct Sam, that is one of the 3(Class A and T1 Duplex being the others). I know that there was a proposed second Dreyfuss that they were going to make, but the suit squashed that quick I guess.

As for finding them, yeah, they pop up a lot. Before I got mine there was someone who had the entire collection of the Dreyfuss and the cars that ran with it. His was a shelf queen that he kept well dusted and clean, he was selling that at a very reasonable price for the whole set. I don't remember what the other two engines he had displayed with it, but he was also selling those with their perspective cars as well. I want to say that all three would definitely be sought after by many a railroad fan, but I don't remember what they were. All were passenger trains though.

As for the one I got, I got it off the TCA Buy/Sell site, and I did pay more than what most probably would have. I have no regrets on paying what I paid, nor anything else about it. I missed most of the nearly fair priced ones before and after I got mine. The prices on them range around $900-$1500 depending on where it is listed. Best price I have seen over the years was $850 a couple of years back. You could get an MTH model of any of the old runs for way less on that I'm sure, beats the nearly $1200 some may ask.

Fortunately, I'm not in the market for one now but when I am, seems I'll have a few more good choices than prior to today!  Have become disillusioned with Lionel's QC especially on steamers in recent years and will likely only buy MTH from here going forward.  Sad...

Have been watching the earlier PS2 MTH models and they seem to still be in the $600 - $700 range on the Bay

@c.sam posted:

Fortunately, I'm not in the market for one now but when I am, seems I'll have a few more good choices than prior to today!  Have become disillusioned with Lionel's QC especially on steamers in recent years and will likely only buy MTH from here going forward.  Sad...

Have been watching the earlier PS2 MTH models and they seem to still be in the $600 - $700 range on the Bay

Auction site prices are out of sight now Sam. Train shows are your best bet. I picked up a TMCC Dreyfuss last year for 400 bucks locally. No tax or shipping. There are no perfect engines, they all have a few negatives. Brass has the detail, most all diecast have the durability and the new ones are close in detail too.

Pete